THOTH Posted October 23, 2003 Report Share Posted October 23, 2003 Thoth, human biology contradict you. Why is that necesarily? (and I cannot agree)... I mean my wife is my family...is the dearest person for me - no different really then my parents/siblings etc..even in many ways closer...as we have been together years and do nearly everything together, share everything, raise our kids etc...I'm not sure I could imagie being seperated from her (in my life)...I would be devestated...so I can't understand why my love for her would be any less then love for any other family member - blood relative or otherwise (and what of adopted children etc)...I really don't think love is necessarily so bound by a genetic bond or what have you...I certainly belive that it is within us to love outside of this - even if all may not be so capable of it (for whatever reason) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted October 23, 2003 Report Share Posted October 23, 2003 Sasun - I dopn't know why it has to be this way at all...not part of my relationship with my wife (that I can fathom)...though I do understand what you are saying...and certainly we do fight on occasion (and she gets upset at me [for whatever reason...though ussually not for something like your example...] not infrequently! - LOL). There is one instance that I can think of that reminds me of your example though. Once when we were at Wakkiki Beach in hawaii - I was out swiming while she was laying on the beach...well on a lark ( and because I like to do this sort of thing) I decided to swim the entire length of Wakkiki - and did - well I dind't think to tell her I was going for a long swim - out of site etc - she was napping I think...well I was gone for perhaps an hour or more...and when she awoke I was nowhere to be seen...she paniked - thoguht I had drowned and had lifeguards/rescue/police etc all searching for me...LOL - well when I came walking back up the beach she was livid! (understatement)...though of course was relieved that I was alive...LOL (oops...duh...sorry...etc) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted October 23, 2003 Report Share Posted October 23, 2003 Thoth, sure it doesn't have to be that way, but it can very well be. It's only one example of what I mean.Another point: suppose the wife starts betraying the husband. It is normal to expect that the husband will start hating his wife for that. If he didn't love her, he would not care and would not feel jelous. Independently of how he would handle it, certainly the husband requires the wife to not cheat on him, not go out with the other guy, in other words he limits his wife's freedom, causing hate/antagonization from her (perhaps the wife is in love with another man, or is just adventurous). So this is not a nice situation, but the husband would swear that he loves her truely. On the other hand, his feelings towards her are not all nice and there is a lot of hate. Is this a true love or not? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted October 23, 2003 Report Share Posted October 23, 2003 With love between a man and woman, there is always asking back something in exchange for love. That something could be loyalty, morals, etc. It is like trade - if you don't love me I won't be nice to you. If you love me and please me, sure I will love and please you even more. I say, this is not true love. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted October 23, 2003 Report Share Posted October 23, 2003 Sasun - I don't think love requires jealousy (and certainly not hatred...). And some of what you are saying is - in this age - perhaps a little old think (sure perhaps many do adhere to it...and this is much of our problem in this age...we haven't properly adapted...). Some couples can survive/prosper without such restictions and can be comfortable with such - and it fact some outside "play" can be tolerated, encouraged even...if one partner is interested in the happiness of the other (or mutual)...and when there is both love and confidence. This situation can in fact be a boon - and strengthen (demonstrate even) love and commitment (selfishlessness) - and not be derisive. Don't know if this makes sense...and it ccertainly requires two people who are perhaps not the norm in todays society etc (more enlightened then the average bear - as it were...) - but I think if there were more of this there could actually be less divorce/cheating and problems of this sort. Sometimes I think people need to just ease up a bit...(in so many ways...) And what is your obsession with hatred? I hardly ever experience that emotion...and certainly not in regards to my wife...frustration sometimes...LOL...and perhaps anger at times...but hatred? no. I really don't think that there is a place in love for hatred... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted October 23, 2003 Report Share Posted October 23, 2003 With love between a man and woman, there is always asking back something in exchange for love. That something could be loyalty, morals, etc. It is like trade - if you don't love me I won't be nice to you. If you love me and please me, sure I will love and please you even more. I say, this is not true love. I agree with your conclusion. But I do not agree that "love" or relationships neceissarily ask for anything in return besides love back...(if even that...though it is dificult to love when it is not returned...but not impossible) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted October 23, 2003 Report Share Posted October 23, 2003 Speaking of couples, marriage-I would like to add that marriage, as a whole is overrated institution. I am fine with my wife. We have our ups and down like everyone else. Love? I mostly agree with Domino. There is the intense infatuation period that is very romantic you know the time that every little thing your partner did or say was an act of holly grace but…there is always but… If only you could maintain that freshness and intensity…then you could have your ideal lover for life but as all things human familiarity becomes predicable and predicable becomes boring and once the acts you cherished in your lover now becomes irritating. What changed? Nothing only the thin film has been peeled away from fresh and new to used and familiar prone to breakdowns.. Armat - I understand and agree with this post. Bottom line though...we have to work at things if we want them bad enough...and sometimes we have to adjust our expectations...learn to cherish other aspects etc...even if we miss some of that exicetement - that perhaps can be approximated/recreated for times...but basically may never occur again in quite the same way... Nice post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CheekY Posted October 23, 2003 Author Report Share Posted October 23, 2003 I mean my wife is my family...is the dearest person for me - no different really then my parents/siblings etc..even in many ways closer...as we have been together years and do nearly everything together, share everything, raise our kids etc...I'm not sure I could imagie being seperated from her (in my life)...I would be devestated...so I can't understand why my love for her would be any less then love for any other family member - blood relative or otherwise (and what of adopted children etc)...I really don't think love is necessarily so bound by a genetic bond or what have you...I certainly belive that it is within us to love outside of this - even if all may not be so capable of it (for whatever reason)exactly what i wanted someone to say lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted October 23, 2003 Report Share Posted October 23, 2003 I agree with your conclusion. But I do not agree that "love" or relationships neceissarily ask for anything in return besides love back...(if even that...though it is dificult to love when it is not returned...but not impossible) There can rarely be unconditional love between man and woman. (Sometimes we find such cases in poetry but in real life I can't say that I have seen) If you love why don't you just love, why do you need to be loved back? Sure, it is hard to love when you are not loved. If you can't then that is not true love. On the other hand, parents love their children no matter what. Ok, not all of them, but most of them do. The child can be smart or not so smart, nice or ugly, but they do love unconditionally. Normally children return parentla love, but even if they don't the parents still love them. This seems to me more like true love. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormig Posted October 23, 2003 Report Share Posted October 23, 2003 I've been reading up on narcissism lately, and I'm beginning to wonder if this jealousy/"hate" thing that people feel when they're "betrayed" can be attributed to the narcissist in all of us. For some it is stronger, for others it is not. Hate because our delusion of a relationship (working well or not) has been shattered, denied us, whisked away, so to speak, exposing the weakness and leaving the "betrayed" defenseless against the delusions they had been harbouring for quite a long time, leaving them with nothing... After all, it is not about self-esteem (and neither is narcissism)... Maybe I should have read further on and could've probably come up with an anecdote about that as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sev-mard Posted October 23, 2003 Report Share Posted October 23, 2003 I would say that sometimes that is close to the truth and others the legimate betrayal you've suffered makes you been a narcissist. I think I'm the second part. Started out all naive and got burned BAD, and then after other questionable females in my life, began to feel like "well i'm a great catch, why are most girls idiots?" So I went in the reverse direction. Don't get me wrong i'm not like all crazy, but I'm giving you the flipside of the coin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angel4hope Posted October 24, 2003 Report Share Posted October 24, 2003 i believe that if you really love someone money doesnt matter- all that matters is that u love eachother- but on the other hand- money matters in the sense that the guy has to be hard working and be able to support a family- he doesnt have to be loaded and rich, u dont need 5 cars a big house and all these materialistic things- al u need is love- and grow old together and respect one another- so what if u dont drive a mercedes or have a huge house- u can ba happier living in a small little house w/ kids and a decent car- ----yeah i know we all think that it would be great to have that million dollar house and a mazarati, and a few rolls royces(spelling??) here and there- but when it all comes down IMO- love should be superior to anything else..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted October 24, 2003 Report Share Posted October 24, 2003 a few rolls of royces wouldn't be bad at all Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angel4hope Posted October 24, 2003 Report Share Posted October 24, 2003 lol funny Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted October 24, 2003 Report Share Posted October 24, 2003 (edited) Why is that necesarily? (and I cannot agree)... I mean my wife is my family...is the dearest person for me - no different really then my parents/siblings etc..even in many ways closer...as we have been together years and do nearly everything together, share everything, raise our kids etc...I'm not sure I could imagie being seperated from her (in my life)...I would be devestated...so I can't understand why my love for her would be any less then love for any other family member - blood relative or otherwise (and what of adopted children etc)...I really don't think love is necessarily so bound by a genetic bond or what have you...I certainly belive that it is within us to love outside of this - even if all may not be so capable of it (for whatever reason)Thoth, with all due respect for your love experience, you are mixing two type of love, or even 3. When two person have a child, the child as being the product of those two, there is a kind of attachment, the other love, is the one of friendship that is created, the love of memories etc... and no, love has not to be genetic, if you reread youèll see I refered to friendship. The other love, the one that some here refer as "true" love, has nothing to do with the loves I refered, this love is linked with human biology and exist for the survival of the specy... this love, which has as disease passion, is the one that makes a woman and man attrack to each others... all this romantism and passion exist for one end, and it is procreation. Of course, some times, that is not so, humans are just more complext than that, and the subconsciencenous will always wish and have the illusion of the love that exist for procreation. An example of such cases, is a woman that just get married and her hasband has an accident, and is burned to the second degree, and as well he lose the capacity to satisfy his wife. The woman still love her husband the same way for some times until the type of love change gradualy... there reason why she does still love her husband, is because of the memory of what he was before the accident that the subconscience uses. It is hard to explain what I am trying to tell... but lets put that on a more pictured way. A hetero man fall in love with a woman, and the woman fall in love with the man... this hetero man can not fall in love with a man, because he is hetero, and as well will not have a sexual attraction for a man... the love and the sexual attraction are both extremly linked with each others, because a man that is attracted sexualy to a woman can not fall in love with a man without being sexualy attracted to a man. What does that mean? It mean, that there is no such thing as true "love" independent from sex, this love happens because of the subconscience sexual attraction. BUT! THe love that a couple will have later, will substitute to this love, both love are different... one originate from sexual attraction, the other happens after that both shared their life for a long time. Edited October 24, 2003 by Fadix Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UKGIRL28 Posted October 24, 2003 Report Share Posted October 24, 2003 It is like trade - if you don't love me I won't be nice to you. If you love me and please me, sure I will love and please you even more. Love is not conditional. You dont love in order to 'expect' or to 'get' something back in return, like 'tit for tat' you do it coz you love them unconditionally. I had a friend who was madly in love with this Spanish guy, she fell in love with him, but he was just using her for sex. She did everything to please him and he was enjoying that coz he always got his shag. One day, he tells her that hes lost his job at the hotel, so she agreed to help him find another job, she was helping him coz she wanted to-she loved him, & not coz she had to (everyone has a choice) so anyway, she dedicated a lot of her time to him, lent him money to pay his rent and eventually, he found a job. After all that effort she put in, she came to me crying one day and told me that she was unhappy coz she did all of this for him, yet, she didnt get anything back in return. I asked her, 'you did all this for him coz you expected him to return your favour? She said, yeah, I wouldnt have done it if I knew that I wouldnt get anything back in return! She didnt get any love, he ignored her calls, basically he didnt want to see her anymore coz he was busy shaggin other woman behind her back! This relationship didnt work coz both parties wanted different things, there was no give and take, no balance. It was about her giving for the wrong reasons and him just taking to get his pleasure and not giving back. When it comes to love, in any relationship; whether its family, friendship or your lover, there is always going to be 'give and take'. That balance is important coz its about sharing, its responsibility and its fair...if that balance is interuped, no relationship can survive. Like with many affairs, they happen coz the love balance is tipped. Someone is taking more or giving less and that is a bad sign until something gives and the balance is restored. Like I said before, its easy to fall in love when youve found the right person for you, but its in both your hands to make it last and continue working at it. Marriage/love is a bit like a wheel going round, you need to constantly keep an eye on it, lubricate it so it constantly keeps moving and dosent slow down or stop, sometimes it goes off the smooth road and goes over loads of bumps and ditches when your having bad times and argue a lot but keep at it and it will keep moving and hopefully go back on to the smooth road and your relationship is fine again. If there isnt any constant watching, no lubricating, no caring, then the wheel of love is going off the smooth road, into the many bumps, deep ditches and then just falls and dies.. make it last. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UKGIRL28 Posted October 24, 2003 Report Share Posted October 24, 2003 I really don't think that there is a place in love for hatred... Totally agree with you there THOTH, there shouldnt be any hate in a loving relationship, if there is then, it needs to be delt with soon. If love hurts, it wont work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted October 24, 2003 Report Share Posted October 24, 2003 Nice posts UKGIRL (and not just for agreeing eith me...LOL) And I've known many girls (mostly) who have been in similar situations as you describe...its a tough one...and its not always easy to step back and be rational...but in the end if your don't/can't you will end up hurt. I've done similar as her - where I helped an ex out (financially & otherwise) even after we split and even after we stopped loving each other...I certainly still cared about her (and her me to a degree...but mostly for the sex I think...)...and yeah she was using my generosity/love/concern etc...and I knew it and it hurt...but I was just a sap I guess...she was without a job, down on her luck etc - and I just didn't feel I could let her get kicked out on the street and such...so I paid her rent - for months...and took care of bills etc...even though I knew it was going nowhere (and I really didn't expect any return and certainly didn't want to restart the relationship...)...and eventually it just got too much and I cut her off (though she was starting to get on her feet a bit)...of course she never paid anything back...but I did end up keeping some of her stuff - that I had from when we were (briefly) living together...(which she wasn't happy with - LOL)...some nice antiques even...which I still have... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted October 24, 2003 Report Share Posted October 24, 2003 OK Domino - nice post BTW. I agree - there are different kinds of love...and I understand what you are saying (again explained very nicely) - the link to sex of the love of passion etc...but I have true (?) deep love (that is love, I think - by most definitons) for some of my very long time friends (male & female) ..even though there is nothing at all to do with sex or sexual desire/attraction etc - yet I know theese friends intimatly and care about them as if they were my family - and with one gal I've known for a long long time - her family has even said many times that I am like family to them/part of their family - and they say that they have "adopted" me! LOL ...of course there was a time they wanted me to marry their daughter...and - I probably would have! ...but she certainly didn't see me in that way...even though we did go out at one time - LOL ...oh well...we are still super friends...)...and I have another very dear male friend - whom I've known since before High School, he was my best man at my wedding...well he recently told some folks that I was more than a brother to him - and I feel similarly...and when we see each other we hug (LOL) and have great affection for one another...and yes - I would certainly say love...(and again - nothing at to do with sex)...so while I see the distictions you are making - I think there is a great deal of overlap...and while I don't buy this "true love" bit - I do believe in "real love" - outside of genetics and outside of sexual attraction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BitterSweet Posted October 27, 2003 Report Share Posted October 27, 2003 (edited) Love is not conditional. You dont love in order to 'expect' or to 'get' something back in return, like 'tit for tat' you do it coz you love them unconditionally. I couldnt disagree with you more. I believe every type of love is conditional, except for the love of the mother to the child Now, if you were the husband of a mother than killed her kids, would you still say you love her? I doubt it. love is very conditional Edited October 27, 2003 by BitterSweet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UKGIRL28 Posted October 28, 2003 Report Share Posted October 28, 2003 Now, if you were the husband of a mother than killed her kids, would you still say you love her? Well of course not, but that is an extreme example! Im talking about those little things in love that we do, we do them coz we want to and not coz we have to... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.