KnightOfArmenia Posted December 5, 2003 Report Share Posted December 5, 2003 Actually, you are a stupid little kid. First of all, no Arab state is "good" with us, with the exception of the former Iraq. Arabs allow Armenians to exist within their countries; since the Armenians' hatred is centered against Turkey, and the Arabs themselves hate the Turks, they don't run into conflict very often. But that doesn't mean that Arabs and Armenains are lovey-dovey. Christ, Egyptian Islamic militants almost wiped out the Armenian population of Cairo on several occasions. Second, any form of open aid that the Chechans send to Armenia will be a boon; since Russia can then claim that Azerbaijan is supporting terrorism, and the US will not wish to anger Russia (whose role as mediator between it and the EU is becoming ever more important), Russia will land on both the Chechans AND the Azeris with both feet. This means that Russia will take the Baku oil fields, and we'll get ALL of Artsakh back, including a much larger territory than now. And since this will give us a solid border with Russia (finally), Armenia will no longer be blockaded severely (since it will no longer matter) and the financial pains will almost completely vanish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PiggyWiggy Posted December 5, 2003 Report Share Posted December 5, 2003 ok...i know that... but living in arab countries kept a lot of armenians armenian, because of the pressures of living with foreign people and not have a lot of rights... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khazar Posted December 5, 2003 Report Share Posted December 5, 2003 (edited) Second, any form of open aid that the Chechans send to Armenia will be a boon; since Russia can then claim that Azerbaijan is supporting terrorism, and the US will not wish to anger Russia (whose role as mediator between it and the EU is becoming ever more important), Russia will land on both the Chechans AND the Azeris with both feet. This means that Russia will take the Baku oil fields, and we'll get ALL of Artsakh back, including a much larger territory than now. And since this will give us a solid border with Russia (finally), Armenia will no longer be blockaded severely (since it will no longer matter) and the financial pains will almost completely vanish. I personally wouldn't take it that far - for example, the west would never allow Russia to take Baku's oil fields - it's counting on far too much the completion of the Baku-Ceyhan pipeline. But I definitely agree that Chechen involvement would be to Azerbaijan's detriment. Since September 11, the west has largely remained silent about the Kremlin's war in Chechnya. Leaders like Bush have enlisted Putin's support in the 'war on terrorism', (whatever that means) and this has led to a growing like-mindedness between the west and Russia, for example, as you mentioned, Russia's role in the west (US and EU in particular) is becoming more important. So any Chechen activity in Azerbaijan would make Russia more than happy to have such an easy justification to meddle in Azerbaijan. And all this would be done with the west's approval. I never considered Armenia's chance of sharing a border with Russia (if were ever to take over more of Azerbaijan), but I just don't see that happening. Economically though, it would be priceless... Edited December 5, 2003 by Khazar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sen_Vahan Posted December 5, 2003 Report Share Posted December 5, 2003 Khazar, Taking into account all the complexity of the Chechen problem one should not make so definite conclusions like you do. However, there is one aspect that is clear - Chechens were given the opportunity to develop themselves after the first chechen war when Russians took the army out of the republic. As a result, Chechen forces started to invade Dagestan looking for a way to the Caspian. This is how the second war started and at that moment even those Russian politicians always against the war in Chechnya agreed on starting the war again. I think you need to read and research more before you post some nonsense. You can obserbe some similarities - wherever in the US the African Americans hold the power (be that the major of the city or even higher) or whereever they live in majority the area is total disaster, everything out of control, dirty, corrupted. The same about Chechens, they were not and they are still not able to be organised. Organisation is necessary for building a country, state. During the Soviet period Chechnya was the most corrupted, dangerous, mafios-like, disastrious place in the big country. On the other hand, Chechen diaspora was and still is one of the reachest along with the jewish one. How come they are not able to use their wealth for their nation's good? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khazar Posted December 5, 2003 Report Share Posted December 5, 2003 (edited) Taking into account all the complexity of the Chechen problem one should not make so definite conclusions like you do. However, there is one aspect that is clear - Chechens were given the opportunity to develop themselves after the first chechen war when Russians took the army out of the republic. As a result, Chechen forces started to invade Dagestan looking for a way to the Caspian. This is how the second war started and at that moment even those Russian politicians always against the war in Chechnya agreed on starting the war again. I think you need to read and research more before you post some nonsense. Disagreeing on points is fine, it's the point of the forum! But no need to tell me when I need to read and research... I mean that in a nice way. Chechens were given the opportunity to develop themselves after the first chechen war when Russians took the army out of the republic Oh please. When the Russian army pulled out of Chechnya in 1996, they left 50% of their weaponry behind. They left Grozny demolished, and they left the whole republic with a huge power vacuum and without any policing capability. What did they expect? The Chechens to sort everything out themselves? They knew exactly what they were doing. The chaos and corruption that ensued fueled by Russians and Chechens on the ground buying and selling arms in a 'civil-war economy', plus the invasion of Dagestan and the as-yet-to-be proved apartment bombings, finally gave the excuse the Russians needed to go back and install 'peace' and 'order'. All the wrong people were making the money, and the already weak federal system under Yeltsin was getting weaker. Tatarstan and Bashkortostan had already expressed their wishes to secede. Ignoring Chechnya could have meant the unravelling of the whole Federation. So yes, I agree with you, the issue is complex. Chechen diaspora was and still is one of the reachest along with the jewish one. How come they are not able to use their wealth for their nation's good?Which Chechen diaspora are you talking about? I think there are some Chechens in Germany(?), But I don't think there is a significant Chechen population outside of Chechnya besides Moscow, where it's almost impossible for Chechens to find work. They have their mafia, of course, and they help each other out, but who doesn't in Moscow? wherever in the US the African Americans hold the power (be that the major of the city or even higher) or whereever they live in majority the area is total disaster, everything out of control, dirty, corrupted.Yow! Edited December 5, 2003 by Khazar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sen_Vahan Posted December 5, 2003 Report Share Posted December 5, 2003 Khazar, Yes, russians left the weaponry for chechens to fight against russians and kill their civilians, they created the political/power vacuum (interestingly, that republic was always in power vacuum), they destroyed the city of Grozny in order to spend money later to rebuild it, they killed their own people in Moscow bombing or exploding the buildings (according to this logics CIA bombed the buildings in NYC), again entered Chechnya to further punish chechens and show the rest of muslim subjects that no independence can be achieved in Russia, are still using terrorist methods to kill their own people across the country, and since they are so smart they will continue doing the same. This paragraph is explains what you are saying. Now read it carefully and try to understand that russians need to be idiots, bastards to do all these. If you believe in that then I can't help asking you do more research As you noticed probably, we were talking about chechens in Russia, nothing was mentioned about those in Germany or somewhere else. Yes, I mean the diaspora in Russia. Well, first about chechens that cannot find jobs. I am not sure whether or not you know but chechens have a lot of professors in Moscow's most prestigious universities. Are you going to argue about this ? Second, if you were attending the expensive night clubs, all kind of restaurants, etc in Moscow or Petersburg you would notice one thing - chechens are among most fashionable young people there. I don't have to tell you how much one needs to earn in Moscow to afford all these. Moreover, a lot of chechens study in most expensive schools and universities in Moscow or Petersburg. Now, how can you afford this if you do not have a job or a source of income? I do not have any reason to be jealous, please, do not get me wrong, but I am writing about my observations becuase I lived for more than 6 years in Moscow and had the chance to observe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khazar Posted December 6, 2003 Report Share Posted December 6, 2003 sen_Vahan, I didn't mean to portray the Russians as 'idiots' or 'bastards', but if we agree on some of the facts of the war (which we have), it is of course obvious that some of them aren't the best examples of humanity - and I can say with confidence that these are mostly concentrated to mid-ranking military men (and politicians, duh!). I digress... I also didn't know about the level of status some Chechens in Moscow have achieved. Generally in Russia, Chechens remain very poor, most of them living in refugee camps in Ingushetia. But of course, Moscow is a different story. You lived in Moscow for six years, so you would know better than I. I lived there for three months. The impression I got was that Russians refuse or are afraid to hire them, and they can only get jobs from other more established Chechens... is this not true? I'm not saying they are the poorest of the nationalities in Moscow, no way, and of course they have their so called 'zolotaya molodezh', and clubs and so on... but anyway, maybe you can correct me on this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teutonic Knight Posted December 6, 2003 Author Report Share Posted December 6, 2003 Death to all Chechen scum. 300 CHECHEN MERCENARIES REPORTED TO FIGHT AGAINST Artsax ON AZERBAIJAN'S SIDE IN 1992 STEPANAKERT, DECEMBER 5. ARMINFO. Almost 300 Chechen mercenaries fought against Artsax on Azerbaijan's side in early 1992, says the experts of Caucasian Media Institute Hayk Demoyan in his monograph "The Artsax Drama: Secret Deeds." The mercenaries were recruited under a military agreement between the Azeri and Chechen authorities: the Chechen side pledged to provide fighters against arms and ammunition. However, the Chechens were heavily beaten and left Artsax soon. After the mid-1993 defeats the Azeri government was forced to order mercenaries from Afghanistan. Referring to the memoirs of the American journalist Thomas Goltz, Demoyan writes that the former US special service agents who took part in the Iran-Contras affair sent mercenaries to Azerbaijan and retrained Azeri pilots in Texas. But soon the FBI revealed Baku's ties with the organizers of the terrorist acts against the US embassies in Kenya and Tanzania and stopped the assistance. The former Greek ambassador to Armenia Leonidas Kristanopoulos says in his memoirs that in Oct 1993 Turkey tried to take advantage of Russia's parliamentary crisis and to invade into Armenia. According to the French secret services, the speaker of the Russian parliament Ruslan Khasbulatov and the Turkish prime minister Tansu Ciller signed an agreement allowing Turkey to invade into Armenia in case of the victory of the anti-Yeltsin group in Russia. The former US ambassador to Armenia has confirmed this fact. Referring to Armenian, Russian, Turkish, Azeri, American and French sources as well as the archives of the State Department of National Security of Artsax, Demoyan says that in 1991-1992 the Turkish air forces made a series of secret flights to Azerbaijan to deliver arms and ammunition to that country. Azeri officers and soldiers were actively retrained in Turkish military schools. The Turkish secret services in close contact with the Azeri office of the Turkish "Gray Wolves" organization began actively recruiting mercenaries from the Turkish 3rd field army (Kars and Igdir provinces) and sending them to Azerbaijan. Ankara did its best to resolve the Artsax problem to Baku's advantage. Apr 3 1993 Turkey officially closed its border with Armenia and signed an agreement for supplying arms to Azerbaijan and retraining Azeri servicemen thereby violating the OSCE 1993 ban on the import of arms into the Artsax conflict region. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teutonic Knight Posted December 6, 2003 Author Report Share Posted December 6, 2003 PRELIMINARY DATA THREE ARMENIANS KILLED IN TRAIN TERRORIST ACT IN STAVROPOLIAN REGION- December 06, 2003 14:14 /PanARMENIAN.Net/ According to the preliminary data, there are three Armenians among the victims of the act of terrorism committed in the train in the Stavropolian region of Russia. As reported by the Russian information agencies these are Irina and Zalina Asrumians (born 1987 and 1963) and Khoren Grigorian (1954) residing in the Russian town of Kislovodsk. According to the data cited by the Russian ministry of emergency situations, there are also a number of injured people with their last names ending with "ian", Arminfo agency reports. To note, yesterday morning the blast in the Pyatigorks-Essentuki train killed 40 people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MKR Posted December 22, 2003 Report Share Posted December 22, 2003 The first question in my first post that really interests me as I'm sure would interest many other "Armenians" is who are you "Khazar" because you are not Armenian. As many of you know or more of you don't Khazars are turks who accepted Judaizm as their religion and became the moden day Ashkenazi Jews. Therefore please take this fact into consideration before evaluating Khazar's posts. Thank you, MKR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormig Posted December 22, 2003 Report Share Posted December 22, 2003 And what bearing does Khazar's ethnicity have for us? He is capable of decent discussion, so what the frig is your problem? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MKR Posted December 22, 2003 Report Share Posted December 22, 2003 (edited) That's the thing he has no relationship with us, if that's what you meant. My friging problem you ask? Huh...I'll leave that one for you to decide if you don't see anything wrong with it. P.S. If you don't figure it out anytime soon and you really need to know what's wrong with the picture of a Jew of Turkish descent mingling in the Armenian forums I'll tell you then. Until then, MKR Edited December 22, 2003 by MKR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormig Posted December 23, 2003 Report Share Posted December 23, 2003 Death to all Chechen scum. Russkies out of the Caucasus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armo77 Posted December 23, 2003 Report Share Posted December 23, 2003 Russkies out of the Caucasus. lol Stormy.. Rather than making posts about who you don't like, why not make it easy and make posts of the who you do like.. lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormig Posted December 23, 2003 Report Share Posted December 23, 2003 How about making intelligent posts instead of all you've been spewing around? Or get off your PC desk and have a fun time reading Michael Moore? Save you a lot of time and energy and you'll do (or will have a chance of doing) something good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khazar Posted December 28, 2003 Report Share Posted December 28, 2003 (edited) The first question in my first post that really interests me as I'm sure would interest many other "Armenians" is who are you "Khazar" because you are not Armenian. As many of you know or more of you don't Khazars are turks who accepted Judaizm as their religion and became the moden day Ashkenazi Jews. Therefore please take this fact into consideration before evaluating Khazar's posts. Thank you, MKR Oh this is too funny. Well, I've never had to prove my ethnicity or nationality to anyone, so I'm not about to do that for you. On principle. Edited December 28, 2003 by Khazar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shahumyan Posted December 28, 2003 Report Share Posted December 28, 2003 i think Khazar has generally been bang on throughout this thread. I would like to add some points. Although i am an internationalist, i think the Chechens deserve the right for self determination, and as Armenians who in the case of Kharabagh have seen the effects of not having the power to affect yourselves, we should be first to stand in solidarity with the Chechen workers, and their demands for a independent secular state. 2ndly, the Armenian workers should make no alliance with no bourgeoise state, be it Russia, America, Georgia or Turkey, as none of these have any interest in the welfare of the Armenia people as an end. They simply wish to further their classes interest. examples are: Russia wants to maintain Armenia as "ally" so Nato and USA dont take over whole of caucauses. also its a market they want to penetrate with their goods, and already have succeeded in doing if you go to Yerevan and see their goods there. America wants Armenia onside so as it can be a satelite against a potential sleeping superpower, Russia. Back to the Chechens fighting for Azerbaijan, its obvious that normal chechen people will not forget about their cause just so that they can go help Azerbaijan, when Russia is dropping bombs on them. No logic. I personally think this Chechen human right person may simply be acting to stir things up so that Azerbaijan can increase funnds to the Chechen cause or for Chechen humanitarian causes. We should be wary of speeches like this, if they really meant anything, would they allow it to be published to every Tom Dick and Harry? i dont think so Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khazar Posted December 30, 2003 Report Share Posted December 30, 2003 (edited) MKR, If you disagree with something I've said, you are more than welcome to debate, that's what other people here seem to do. However, your fixation about who I am (btw, you are wrong ), tells me your posts, as entertaining as they are, are a waste of my time. Edit: This message was typed to the one that was deleted... Edited December 30, 2003 by Khazar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted December 30, 2003 Report Share Posted December 30, 2003 I deleted some posts. No personally or racially oriented comments please (not allowed in this forum). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
koko Posted January 23, 2004 Report Share Posted January 23, 2004 (edited) If Russia would let the chechens become independent that will mean that they have to put out with whatever regime the comes to power in the country? Because that is not very respectful towards all the other millions of people in the region. We dont need another islamic republic in the caucasus. We have seen enoguh wars! the chechens and talibans went and fought against armenians(!) in the conflict with Azerbadjian We are armenian, we dont have dubbelmorals as other countries or nationalities. We are united, and we dont suck up to islamists like israel or USA does ( yes, they have economically finansed Hisbolla, Hamas, Talbanregimes etc.). We as armenian do what is best for our people and work together. If we would allow another islamic republic in the caucasus it will mean the end of armenia Im taking this seriously compared to many other armenians,"well its nice and all", to let the chechens have a independent country", "freedom"(?) think about the consecuences of it as well!!?? Edited January 23, 2004 by koko Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormig Posted January 23, 2004 Report Share Posted January 23, 2004 Thing is, I wonder if the people of the Caucasus would have become so militant and so radically religious (same thing with religion "uniting" a nation) if they had better memories of the Russians. The same people lived under Ottoman rule, too. Why the strong dislike? There may be predispositions, but on the large, things are not without reason. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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