gamavor Posted September 15, 2003 Report Share Posted September 15, 2003 The message is: If they harass even one Armenian in Turkey.... Sabre Dance by Khachaturian! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
America-Hye Posted September 15, 2003 Report Share Posted September 15, 2003 They can not face their national shame. Methinks that most Turks know what really happened, but can't face it. It is a form of avoidance to get all in a bluster when their national guilt is brought up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phantom Posted September 15, 2003 Report Share Posted September 15, 2003 They can not face their national shame. Methinks that most Turks know what really happened, but can't face it. It is a form of avoidance to get all in a bluster when their national guilt is brought up. I don't know about Turkey's national shame, but I am ashamed of being an Armenian when I read the posts in this thread. This is some very narrow-minded drivel about Turks. And that some of you are proud about harrassing Turks is disgusting to say the least. You don't even know if they were good people or bad people, just that they were Turks. For all you know, their best friend was an Armenian and they acknowledged the Genocide. This type of thread is what Turks point to when they say that hatred against them is ingrained in our mentality. It's very shameful, and I'm embarrassed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
America-Hye Posted September 15, 2003 Report Share Posted September 15, 2003 Phantom, If you read ALL the threads in this forum you will get an understanding about the mentality of each of us here. Gams is an attorney who justifiableydislikes Turks. I think that his approach is counter-productive, though. What if Taner Akam (spelling?) was the Turk he insulted in the disco? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phantom Posted September 15, 2003 Report Share Posted September 15, 2003 Phantom, If you read ALL the threads in this forum you will get an understanding about the mentality of each of us here. Gams is an attorney who justifiableydislikes Turks. I think that his approach is counter-productive, though. What if Taner Akam (spelling?) was the Turk he insulted in the disco? I'm sorry, I just don't understand the mentality of how you can "justifiably dislike" an entire ethnic group in the year 2003? I can see how you might dislike Prof. Halacoglu who keeps finding supposed "Turkish" grave sites for the purpose of further covering up the Genocide, but I don't know how you can dislike all Turks generally. I don't care what happened in 1915, I am not going to live my life with hate in my heart. I'll work to change things, and eventually Turkey will come around, but until then, I'm not going to tear myself up with this racist, hatred mentality. I'll focus on the 10,000 Turks in Europe who petition to have the Genocide acknowledged by Turkey. Just like you suggested, those people are Turks too, and what if Gams had insulted Taner Akcam? By the way, I sense that you too generally hate Turks, but you just think it is smart to cover it up so that we can get the Genocide acknowledged. Otherwise, why would you say that Gams' sweeping hatred is "justifiable"? Let me know if I'm wrong, but that's the impression that I've got. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phantom Posted September 15, 2003 Report Share Posted September 15, 2003 Yes! They are cowards. They fear us as hell. That was my second encounter with a turk in town. The first one was long time ago in a popular local bar. This turk was talking to an arab that I knew. I didn't know that this guy is a turk, so they were discussing how to approach a girl that the turk liked. He had no "balls" to approach her and as a joke without knowing that he is a turk I said "Are you a freaking turk". The guy left with a face burning in red. After a while the arab guy asked me how I did know that he is a turk. He, He, He..... Let's see, according to your broken logic, your little anecdotes about two encounters you have had with Turks are some sort of proof that Turks are cowards? To be honest with you, the only thing I took away from your stories is that Turks know how to turn the other cheek (at least these 3 Turks), which is what we as Christians are supposed to do, remember? You are provoking these people into fights, and they don't retaliate, instead they walk away, and then you have the audacity to criticize their whole nation for being cowards! That's the impression that I got from your stories, and I'm Armenian. Imagine the impression that you gave to everyone else who is not Armenian! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
America-Hye Posted September 15, 2003 Report Share Posted September 15, 2003 If you read my comments through out this forum, you will see that I do not hate Turks en masse. What I meant by justifiable is that the Turkish government has decided that the "Armenian issue" is one that has to be managed by public relations efforts and the funding of think tanks throughout the world. This is because they will not do the moral thing and come clean. The Turkish economy is not in good shape. They will get short-term gains by squelching the fact that there was a mass confiscation of the wealth of the Armenian Ottoman subjects. The dead are long gone and can not be brought back. Any short-term gain pales in comparison of the long term economic gains that will be achieved by a region where they will be the key player. This will never come to pass as long as they do not resolve their problems with their neighbors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phantom Posted September 15, 2003 Report Share Posted September 15, 2003 If you read my comments through out this forum, you will see that I do not hate Turks en masse. What I meant by justifiable is that the Turkish government has decided that the "Armenian issue" is one that has to be managed by public relations efforts and the funding of think tanks throughout the world. This is because they will not do the moral thing and come clean. The Turkish economy is not in good shape. They will get short-term gains by squelching the fact that there was a mass confiscation of the wealth of the Armenian Ottoman subjects. The dead are long gone and can not be brought back. Any short-term gain pales in comparison of the long term economic gains that will be achieved by a region where they will be the key player. This will never come to pass as long as they do not resolve their problems with their neighbors. Ok, thanks for the clarification. I guess what you meant then is that his dislike of the Turkish government is justifiable rather than his dislike of Turkish people? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
America-Hye Posted September 15, 2003 Report Share Posted September 15, 2003 Yes, my approach to individual Turks has not like Gams. As a matter of fact I have had cordial relations with them and once even fell in love in my 30's with a beautiful young Turkish woman. That is not to say that there are not evil Turks in America or evil Armenians. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted September 15, 2003 Report Share Posted September 15, 2003 phantom - again the voice of reason/rationality...here here! (please stay awhile & post some more...) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phantom Posted September 15, 2003 Report Share Posted September 15, 2003 phantom - again the voice of reason/rationality...here here! (please stay awhile & post some more...) Thanks THOTH, don't mind if I do! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gamavor Posted September 15, 2003 Report Share Posted September 15, 2003 The voice of hereditary loosers...aka scared to death Bolsa(so-called)hyes. If the object of my frustration, i.e. the turk was one of those "decent" ones, who would very well understand my actions and get the message over to his compatriots. If he was not one of them, than I guess he deserved it. BTW I don't count bolsahays as hays at all. Just christian turks, gagauz and I don't give, you know what about what they think. If they love so much their slavery in Turkey what the hell they are doing in US? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phantom Posted September 15, 2003 Report Share Posted September 15, 2003 The voice of hereditary loosers...aka scared to death Bolsa(so-called)hyes. If the object of my frustration, i.e. the turk was one of those "decent" ones, who would very well understand my actions and get the message over to his compatriots. If he was not one of them, than I guess he deserved it. BTW I don't count bolsahays as hays at all. Just christian turks, gagauz and I don't give, you know what about what they think. If they love so much their slavery in Turkey what the hell they are doing in US? And what message exactly were you trying to convey to those Turks? I'll tell you what you did convey: that you are a racist, hate-filled fanatic, which is what many of them already think of us because of actions like your's? By the way, I live in America because it is a better place to live for Christian Armenians than Turkey. But unlike you, I have enough active cerebral neurons to distinguish between individuals and governments. And the Armenians in Turkey are not cowards just because they don't want to kill every Turk they see. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
America-Hye Posted September 15, 2003 Report Share Posted September 15, 2003 On one point Gams may be correct. When I researched my family, I discoverd to my astonishment that my grandfather's brother who had a high position in the palace of the Sultan was known as Abdul. I know that this guy was Christian and had an Armenian first name. Where did the Abdul name come from? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phantom Posted September 15, 2003 Report Share Posted September 15, 2003 On one point Gams may be correct. When I researched my family, I discoverd to my astonishment that my grandfather's brother who had a high position in the palace of the Sultan was known as Abdul. I know that this guy was Christian and had an Armenian first name. Where did the Abdul name come from? And in what respect does that make Gams correct, and correct as to what issue? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phantom Posted September 16, 2003 Report Share Posted September 16, 2003 And in what respect does that make Gams correct, and correct as to what issue? And one more thing, I don't know if you and "Gams" realize this, but there are literally thousands of Armenian immigrants in Istanbul from Armenia. What should we say about them, and what does that say about Armenia? Are all of these Armenians cowards for living in Istanbul? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gamavor Posted September 16, 2003 Report Share Posted September 16, 2003 It is getting HOT!! You remember this popular game from your childhood. You are getting very close to the point of no return. Boy, I love Kansas. Anyway, do you Khodja and Phantomoglu realize why Armenian Genocide is not recognized internationally. OK. Let me rephrase it. Do you know partly why Armenian Genocide is not recognized internationally? Because for many so-called "Armenians" it was family feud. That is why people like you have no space and place among the real victims of the Genocide. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
America-Hye Posted September 16, 2003 Report Share Posted September 16, 2003 Phantom, Just as I am more an American than an Armenian my grand-uncle was more of Ottoman than an Armenian. The most illustrious member of our family, one generation futher back was known as an Armenian, however. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phantom Posted September 16, 2003 Report Share Posted September 16, 2003 Phantom, Just as I am more an American than an Armenian my grand-uncle was more of Ottoman than an Armenian. The most illustrious member of our family, one generation futher back was known as an Armenian, however. Ok, but what aspect of Gams' rhetoric does that make correct? It's still not clear to me. Are you saying that because your great uncle placed a "Abdul" in his name to hide from the Turks? If that's what you're getting at, then aren't you making enormous leaps in reasoning without further facts? We have no idea why your great uncle put a "Abdul" in his name, so it's premature to say that his Turkish name is evidence that Istanbul Armenians are cowards. I can't believe I'm even making this argument right now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gamavor Posted September 16, 2003 Report Share Posted September 16, 2003 I think now you can have a nice discussion without me. You may invite Thoth too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phantom Posted September 16, 2003 Report Share Posted September 16, 2003 It is getting HOT!! You remember this popular game from your childhood. You are getting very close to the point of no return. Boy, I love Kansas. Anyway, do you Khodja and Phantomoglu realize why Armenian Genocide is not recognized internationally. OK. Let me rephrase it. Do you know partly why Armenian Genocide is not recognized internationally? Because for many so-called "Armenians" it was family feud. That is why people like you have no space and place among the real victims of the Genocide. Whatever you say Gamavor. I didn't realize that you're the self-elected leader of all Armenians the world over. And your theory about why the Genocide is not internationally recognized holds no water. The Genocide is in fact universally recognized, and it is only uneducated Turks who would try to make you believe otherwise, and of course, you with your self-proclaimed wisdom have fallen for their dirty tricks. The only places of consequence that continue to refuse to officially recognize the Genocide are Turkey, the U.S. and Israel, and all of them have their obvious reasons. Don't try to put the blame on other Armenians. All Armenians recognize the Genocide, save for maybe .01% of the Armenian population that hates being Armenian--personally, I don't know of any Armenians like this, but I've heard of them. So don't blame the nonrecognition by Turkey, the U.S. and Israel on any Armenians, you would be doing us all a disservice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted September 16, 2003 Report Share Posted September 16, 2003 Phantom The Turks in their collective mentality have a bad image of us. Not me you or anyone would change that for soon or long term, maybe in a very optimistic way, in the long long long term it may be possible... in a time where there is chances(strong chances) that neither the republic of Turkey, neither the republic of Armenia would exist... this for me would be the optimistic view, because the rational way would most probably be never. So, people like Gamavor aren't making worst what the Turks are thinking of us, people like Gamavor are just used by the Turks to justify themselve of the already negative image they have of us. The question of hate or racism for me now is totally irrelevent. I will just give you a simple example of Turkic behavour. In the Turkic collective mentality, they can't recognise their mistakes and appologise. Of course you know as an example of the diffamation against my person in a board that you know well, and their refusal to appologise, they rather prefer to fool people by making them believe that they have given away their title of moderators, rather than just appologise. I will just give you a recent example, I know that what happens in other boards should not be brought here, but in thise cases, it is not more about what happened in other boards, but just a cases that I use here as an example. There is a World news and political forum build by a Turk(a former member of the other board that you participate). When I submitted to this guy what has been done to me on the board you know about, he answered me that in his board nothing such would be done... Now lets continue on what happened... There is in his forum a fanatic Islamic Turk, asking the eradication of the Armenians... as a joke I registered a user name similair to this idiot, making clear in my posts that I was not this idiot... and I have used my own IP address and have used no any proxies... it was clear to everyone that I was not impersonating the idiot in question. What happened? The forum master overreacted, he posted my IP address openly on that forum, blocked my IP address, and accused me of having cracked the guys computer and having stealed his password. When apparently he realised that he sounded so stupid, and that all of his accusations were baseless, and that another member showed him that I have not stolen the guys account, but I have used another one... he reestablished my IP address. I asked the guy to appologise for his stupid and simple mistake that everyone were withness of... the guy simply refused to appologise. I left that board to never post again. Those are cases and examples of how the Turkish society works... overreact, realise your mistake, hide it, and refuse to admit, and more importantly NOT appologise. Why I am bringing that here is because I think it has everything to do with the discussion you had. People could attack eachothers, trow racistic comments, wathever or not they really believe what they say is matter of debate... this won't change the view that we have of eachothers... those ellements would only be used to prove ourselves(and them for themselves) of what we believe of them, and them what they believe of us... what is important here is not who hate the other more, but rather why one hate the other. We hate the Turks because of what has been done to us as Armenians, and us equating Turks with that. The Turks have hated us and hate us again... because we are Armenians. Think about that... why the Turks hated us during the Ottoman era? All those reasons in themselves caracterised the Ottoman Armenians as what they were as ethnic group... what they were as a culture... of course now they have claims such as we have killed them etc... but all those were justifications and are again justifications to fool themselves to find reasons that would permit them to conclude that they don't hate us because we are Armenians. Why Armenians hate Turks? Why Armenians view them like they view them?... our hate does not originate from them being Turks, but rather events that we uses now to define what we consider as Turks, what we have equated as Turks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted September 16, 2003 Report Share Posted September 16, 2003 It is getting HOT!! You remember this popular game from your childhood. You are getting very close to the point of no return. Boy, I love Kansas. Anyway, do you Khodja and Phantomoglu realize why Armenian Genocide is not recognized internationally. OK. Let me rephrase it. Do you know partly why Armenian Genocide is not recognized internationally? Because for many so-called "Armenians" it was family feud. That is why people like you have no space and place among the real victims of the Genocide. Victimology is independent of ones beliefs and ideologies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
America-Hye Posted September 16, 2003 Report Share Posted September 16, 2003 Domino, The conclusion that MUST be reached from your excellent posting is that there will NEVER be any rapproachement between us and the Turkish hierarchy. Therefore we had better arm ourselves to the teeth and gather our allies. As you well know, this is what my ancestors did in the face of Turkish hatred, arm themelves with guns and lots of wealth. I do not think we should EVER give up Karabagh for any reason nor Meghri corridor. The Turks will NEVER come clean and admit what they did. Ally with Russia, the Balkan countries, etc. and wait for a golden opportunity to retake our lands. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted September 16, 2003 Report Share Posted September 16, 2003 (edited) Phantom, your message is clear and I agree that blind hate is not any good for us, and that showing such hate doesn't look good either. On the other hand, I wouldn't worry about those Turks who would point to Gamavor, for instance, and say, hey look how bad you Armenians are. Those are not good Turks, I wouldn't care about them. They will always find something to blame us. Even if they can't find they will invent something. A good Turk would look at us objectively and see both the good and bad, and when it comes to the issue of genocide, the fact that Gamavor is making jokes like this and has unfriendly feelings towards them shouldn't matter to recognize the truth of the matter. The 10000 Turks that you mention, they are good Turks who recognize the guilt of their ancestors and try to clean their shame instead of looking for Gamavor's misdeeds. Whatever we do we will not be perfect, and one Armenian shouldn't blame another for his feelings and attitude that perhaps is not the best attitude but is clearly understandable. If you care about Turks, please also care about the feelings of fellow Armenians no matter how imperfect they are. P.S. I do really appreciate your tireless efforts in trying to find a language with Turks Edited September 16, 2003 by Sasun Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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