Death Penalty And Christianity

[Sasun]

What do you think of this one?

[vava]

Looks like the 'YES' vote in the other poll was considerably 'softer' than the 'NO' side

[DominO123]

I voted "who cares":)

 

Sasun, I could neither vote, yes ! Neither No! Neither I don't know. Christianity is what we do of it... so it can be yes!, no!, Don't know... so the only choice left to me would be who cares.

Edited September 4, 2003 by Fadix

[Sasun]

I voted "who cares"

 

Sasun, I could neither vote, yes ! Neither No! Neither I don't know. Christianity is what we do of it... so it can be yes!, no!, Don't know... so the only choice left to me would be who cares.

That is not an unusual behavior for Domino

[onnig]

The right answer is yes:

 

Genesis 9:6:

 

"Whoever sheds man's blood,

By man his blood shall be shed,

For in the image of God

He made man."

 

also,

Romans 13:3-4:

 

For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good and you will have praise from the same; for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath on the one who practices evil.

Edited August 23, 2004 by onnig

[gurgen]

The Bible says yes I believe, there's also a passage telling that homosexuality should be punished with death as well, can't remember where exactly.

[bellthecat]

Whatever its opinions on mortal justice - Christianity does practice the ultimate death penalty: denial of eternal life to non-believers!

[Sasun]

Whatever its opinions on mortal justice - Christianity does practice the ultimate death penalty: denial of eternal life to non-believers!

Fortunately that's not the truth, and unfortunately many Christians believe in that.

[THOTH]

Fortunately that's not the truth, and unfortunately many Christians believe in that.

How can you know/be so sure? I find it just absurd that anyone could claim to know with such certainty. Of course I don't believe in such rubbish - yeah - eternal life - just who are they trying to fool (well everyone I guess - yeah life sucks - certainly when pleasures of the flesh are denied etc - doesn't help...but hold out for hope of paradise after death - give me a break - what a sham...) - anyway - its just such denial of life that really peeves me about Christianity (and many religions in general - though Christianity & Islam are the worst)...

 

Life is intimatly and inseperably concerned with the physical mainifestation of ones body here on earth. IMO any attempt to put some unprovable and very unlikely (not bearing or realting to any known reality) spiritual/astral or what have you existance - to put such before our physical and real life on earth is at best just a sham. Does this mean I am not spiritual? Totally not....I commune with nature - have great wonderment and am moved by the natural processes of the Earth - of the mystery and wonder of the stars and what might be out there and the beauty and the awe of what we can observe. Mostly though it is life here on earth - in all its forms and particualrly the closest to home - my family, my children that fills me with awe and wonderment...and this is plenty spiritual enough for me. Just because I have no need for - and can see no reason for believeing in unseen, unproven and IMO quite fanciful - with little bearing on reality - beliefs/supposed answers - that IMO fall short in nearly every possible way - does not make me any less a viable and worthwhile human then anyone else. And it is this latter assertion - which a great many "believers" seem to continually put forth - which really ticks me off (the ultimate of insults IMO)...and this certainty - in such things - unknowable - based on "faith" - I just find absurd....and I am not claiming to have any answers - and if faith and belief and such do it for (any and/or all of) you - etc - well wonderful - thats fine - I have no problem with this - and I truthfully cannot refute that you just may have had some revelation that I just have not experienced (OK - fine...)...but to put such foreward as an absolute - that applies to me as well - and that implies I am somehow a lesser human - will be denied benefit or will be punished for not adhering to such belief - well I certainly draw the line there and will shove it right back in your face...and to me this attitude of certainty in these matters - is just well - absurd..it seems so obvious to me - what can I say....(but who knows...only that I can't even begin to really imagine it to be true - as it seems contrary to reality - as I see it...what can I say...?)

Edited August 24, 2004 by THOTH

[bellthecat]

Fortunately that's not the truth, and unfortunately many Christians believe in that.

I don't know what Christianity you are talking about <_< - but as far as I understand it, the core of the Christian belief system is that belief in Christ opens the door to eternal life in heaven. And, conversely, the lack of that belief closes that door. I'm making it probably a bit over simplified (what about Purgatory, etc - don't think the Eastern Churches have that) but basically true, I think.

Edited August 24, 2004 by bellthecat

[Sasun]

I don't know what Christianity you are talking about <_< - but as far as I understand it, the core of the Christian belief system is that belief in Christ opens the door to eternal life in heaven. And, conversely, the lack of that belief closes that door. I'm making it probably a bit over simplified (what about Purgatory, etc - don't think the Eastern Churches have that) but basically true, I think.

Jesus did not say that there is an ultimate/eternal death penalty. His message is forgiveness and love for everyone, not death penalty. To me "Christ"-ianity means what Christ has said and what logically may follow, not things that contradict to the spirit of Christ's message such as frightening visions of eternal hell.

[onnig]

Bellthecat,

 

If God only showed His justice to everyone, then everyone would go to hell. But He chose to show mercy and you can care less for that because you think that sending anyone to hell is unjust. Christ is the only One who takes care of the sin problem, no one else does that. I've explained in my post on the thread, "Who is a Christian?", I think you read it. And since He is the only one that takes care of the sin problem, then He is the only way. Accept it or not, it's the truth.

 

Sasun,

 

Your explanation/representation of Christianity is not only false but blasphemous. To say there is no hell and then to accuse Christ of never teaching it, denies God's justice. You do not understand God's character because you have embraced a false religion. Those who love the Father love the Son also because the Son is from the Father. You should stop trying to represent Christianity and just keep to your own gods.

[onnig]

Gurgen,

 

I think you're referring to:

 

Lev 18:22 'You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination.

 

and then it says

 

Lev 18:29 'For whoever does any of these abominations, those persons who do so shall be cut off from among their people.

 

but it goes further...

 

Deut 22:5 "A woman shall not wear man's clothing, nor shall a man put on a woman's clothing; for whoever does these things is an abomination to the LORD your God.

 

and look at this...

 

Deut 22:22 "If a man is found lying with a married woman, then both of them shall die, the man who lay with the woman, and the woman; thus you shall purge the evil from Israel.

 

AHHH the good old days.

j/k

[Sasun]

Sasun,

 

Your explanation/representation of Christianity is not only false but blasphemous. To say there is no hell and then to accuse Christ of never teaching it, denies God's justice. You do not understand God's character because you have embraced a false religion. Those who love the Father love the Son also because the Son is from the Father. You should stop trying to represent Christianity and just keep to your own gods.

Onnig, I didn't deny that hell exists. Please refrain from cheap accusations. What I deny is that Jesus taught that some souls will be sent to hell ETERNALLLY never to be forgiven. From where I stand from blasphemy is what you and others are doing, to frighten people with false ideas that God is cruel and will punish people to eternal suffering. Well, you are contradicting to Jesus!!! Now are you a Christian if you are contradicting Jesus?

[onnig]

Sasun,

 

I'm not contradicting Jesus. Would you like for me to quote what you said?

 

Jesus did not say that there is an ultimate/eternal death penalty

 

This is NOT true.

 

How cheap is that accusation?

[Sasun]

This is NOT true.

Then prove it.

[Sasun]

Onnig, please also prove that Jesus is for death penalty. I have at least one unquestionable instance where he forgave the prostitute while clearly the Jewish code was for stoning her to death.

[onnig]

I've have already proven it. Read my previous post. God's Word is representative of Jesus' Words. They ARE His words.

 

As to your example of the prostitute situation. Yes, Christ forgave her. Who is Christ, but God manifested in the flesh, who is able to forgive sin:

 

Luke 7:49:

 

Those who were reclining at the table with Him began to say to themselves, "Who is this man who even forgives sins?"

 

Christ brought the covenant of grace where previously the people were under the law. The law required the stoning of a prostitute, Christ did not deny that. He did not come to abolish the law but to fulfill it:

 

Matt 5:17:

 

"Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.

 

What does it mean to fulfill the law? Well, what does the law do?:

 

Rom 3:20b:

 

"for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin. "

 

and now here is faith in Jesus, that the former prostitute had which saved her, Paul continues to explain faith in Christ as opposed to the law:

 

Rom 3:21-26

 

"But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed; for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus."

 

Sasun, your understanding of that passage with the prostitute is stained with neo-mysticism where everyone is good and going to heaven and that there is no hell, a satanic lie.

[Sasun]

I've have already proven it.  Read my previous post.  God's Word is representative of Jesus' Words.  They ARE His words.

NO. You have not proved, you should prove that according to Jesus hell is eternal, otherwise you are an impostor trying to change the meaning of Jesus's teachings.

 

 

As to your example of the prostitute situation.  Yes, Christ forgave her.  Who is Christ, but God manifested in the flesh, who is able to forgive sin:

 

I don't think you understand. That's exactly what I am saying, that Jesus is forgiving, that God is forgiving. While you are saying that God sends people to eternal hell. You maybe wishing it, but too bad for you, that's not true <_< . Don't you realize how controversial you sound?

 

Sasun, your understanding of that passage with the prostitute is stained with neo-mysticism where everyone is good and going to heaven and that there is no hell, a satanic lie.

 

Huh... are you an all knowing authority to say that? That's a cheap accusation by you calling me satanic or whatever. Are you sure you are not satanic since you have taken the job to misinterpret Christ's teaching by your own likeing?

 

My all-knowing bigoted friend, Jesus tells us to see Him in everyone and to love everyone. This is clearly written in the Gospels. That means we are all inherently good. Who the hell are you to condemn anyone to eternal hell?

Edited August 24, 2004 by Sasun

[THOTH]

Sasun, your understanding of that passage with the prostitute is stained with neo-mysticism where everyone is good and going to heaven and that there is no hell, a satanic lie.

That damn Satan - trying to convince people that they are good and that there is no hell...what an enemy of the people.

 

BTW - the serpent of the bible is esentially the same being/personage as Poseidon/Neptune, Enki, THOTH and other god figures who dared to give humans knowledge here-to-for only the purview/benefit of the gods. So he is a hero who has taken the side of humanity against its oppressors/slavers. So at his core the Christian god is evil. He feys love for us when every eveidence is of mockery and torture. He places essentially unacheivable (against human nature) goals when he knows that the vast majority of humanity will not meet the requirementts and will thus be condemned to his tortures. That he is all knowing and all powerful yet allows this is eveidence of his depravity. (Onnig - what % of people in the world today are Christians [and what of those who exist and have existed in ignorance of christ?]...and you do agree Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, Confucianist, Daoists etc etc are all going to hell - yes - as they do not accept Christ as Lord and Savior).

 

And what is the knowledge given to Adam & Eve...their nakedness...desire for the opposite sex....knowledge of sex....yeah thats bad. (and punishible with eternal death & suffering)

 

I am picturing heaven as in the Matrix - where god has everyone lying in a blissful state - doing no wrong - while his engines/batteries are all powered off of their uneeded energies....I can hear the heavenly chorus (humming of machinery) now....

[Armen]

BTW - the serpent of the bible is esentially the same being/personage as Poseidon/Neptune, Enki, THOTH and other god figures who dared to give humans knowledge here-to-for only the purview/benefit of the gods. So he is a hero who has taken the side of humanity against its oppressors/slavers. So at his core the Christian god is evil. He feys love for us when every eveidence is of mockery and torture. He places essentially unacheivable (against human nature) goals when he knows that the vast majority of humanity will not meet the requirementts and will thus be condemned to his tortures. That he is all knowing and all powerful yet allows this is eveidence of his depravity. (Onnig - what % of people in the world today are Christians [and what of those who exist and have existed in ignorance of christ?]...and you do agree Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, Confucianist, Daoists etc etc are all going to hell - yes - as they do not accept Christ as Lord and Savior).

Thoth, be honest and cite your sources

---------------------------------------

Devil's Advocate

Directed by: Taylor Hackford

1997

 

JOHN MILTON (Al Pacino) : "Let me give you a little inside information about God. God likes to watch. He's a prankster. Think about it. He gives man INSTINCTS! He gives you this extraordinary gift, and then what does He do, I swear for His own amusment, his own private, cosmic gag reel, He sets the rules in opposition. It's the goof of all time. Look but don't touch. Touch, but don't taste! Taste, don't swallow. Ahaha! And when you're jumpin' from one foot to the next, what is he doing? He's laughin' His sick, ***in' ass off. He's a tight-ass! He's a sadist! He's an absentee landlord. Worship THAT? NEVER!"

Edited August 24, 2004 by ArmenSarg

[onnig]

Sasun,

 

You have no idea what you're talking about. Here's a passage for you:

 

Rom 12:2:

 

"And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect. "

 

Your mind is mush, like mine used to be, from all this false religion that you have embraced. But God's Word can renew your mind, the truth can renew your mind.

[THOTH]

Thoth, be honest and cite your sources

---------------------------------------

Devil's Advocate

Directed by: Taylor Hackford

1997

 

JOHN MILTON (Al Pacino) : "Let me give you a little inside information about God. God likes to watch. He's a prankster. Think about it. He gives man INSTINCTS! He gives you this extraordinary gift, and then what does He do, I swear for His own amusment, his own private, cosmic gag reel, He sets the rules in opposition. It's the goof of all time. Look but don't touch. Touch, but don't taste! Taste, don't swallow. Ahaha! And when you're jumpin' from one foot to the next, what is he doing? He's laughin' His sick, ***in' ass off. He's a tight-ass! He's a sadist! He's an absentee landlord. Worship THAT? NEVER!"

lol - yes I do recall this now...I hate to say it - but it seems more likely then what is commonly portrayed (by the do-good Christian types) - at least form empiricle evidence...and by onnigs admissions....I'm not really so worried though - at least not abotu divine punishment of any sort...I'm more worried about the kooks and religious nuts who are running around everywhere....they are downright dangerous (and possesing of no real [earthbound] morality...)....onward Christian soldiers...as it were...

[Sasun]

Sasun,

 

You have no idea what you're talking about. Here's a passage for you:

 

Rom 12:2:

 

"And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect. "

 

Your mind is mush, like mine used to be, from all this false religion that you have embraced. But God's Word can renew your mind, the truth can renew your mind.

Onnig, don't try to avoid the qustion with an irrelevan quote. I remind you, you are claiming that hell is eternal, and I challenge you to prove that Jesus said so.

[Ludwig9]

Hmm.........( while eating a cheese sandwich)

 

the serpent of the bible is esentially the same being/personage as Poseidon/Neptune, Enki, THOTH and other god figures who dared to give humans knowledge here-to-for only the purview/benefit of the gods.

 

(thinking out loud) didn't I read this in a comic book? Or, maybe its from a video game I played? Ok I give up ! THOTH you get this from a comic book or a video game you played?

 

I am dying to find out!