Harut Posted July 16, 2003 Report Share Posted July 16, 2003 what is the reason that people left and still keep leaving the country for last 15 years? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MosJan Posted July 16, 2003 Report Share Posted July 16, 2003 Ehhhhhhh~~~ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azat Posted July 16, 2003 Report Share Posted July 16, 2003 apaga... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted July 16, 2003 Report Share Posted July 16, 2003 Harut, have you not forgotten, those rare ones, those diasporans like Raffi Kojian moving from the US to Armenia? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harut Posted July 16, 2003 Author Report Share Posted July 16, 2003 yesterday, there was a live call-in program on Armenian TV channel here. and the question was why are we here?as you can imagine, most of the callers, actually all of them, were claiming that the reason they are here is the corrupt government. and, of course, they didn't lose the opportunity to insult Robert Kocharian. i think the government is a cheap excuse. i'll write more later... what do you think? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted July 16, 2003 Report Share Posted July 16, 2003 Most of the emigrants from Armenia (not Soviet Union) left before Kocharian's rule. So it is surprising that they blame him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azat Posted July 16, 2003 Report Share Posted July 16, 2003 Harut, your question is a very complex one. At it's core i think most people came to the states for the opportunity of a better living. How people though they would achieve that opportunity is different for each individual family. Some had a skill or a talent that they could use in the states to earn more money. Some knew that stealing was easier or more prosperous in the States and many found the cow that they can milk in the states with the benefits that needy families get here. I am always disappointed in those people who move to the US and immediately become "disable" and get some type of aid from the state. I too have noticed many who complain about Kocharian/Political system/etc but when you ask them about the same president/politics of US they complain even more, however I do not notice too many of then in front of the Armenian Embassy looking for a chance to go to Armenia. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted July 16, 2003 Report Share Posted July 16, 2003 I have a relative who is very involved in assisting recent emigrants from Armenia - helping them get jobs, get places to live, find their way around - how to survive etc. All he can do is say how much he admires these people - how hard they work - how talented, industrious and intelligent they are and how well they are suceeding. Maybe we are talking only about those who settle in California and not elsewhere - eh? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azat Posted July 18, 2003 Report Share Posted July 18, 2003 Harut, we are still waiting for your answer... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harut Posted July 19, 2003 Author Report Share Posted July 19, 2003 Harut, we are still waiting for your answer... well, my answer isn't anything extraordinary. if i could connect i would just say that: chem kartsum vor inchvor mek@ Hayastanits yekel e aystegh vorovhetev sovamah vi&akum e yeghel: chem kartsum vor inchvor mek@ yekel e aystegh vorovhetev karavarutyan koghmits yentarkvel e qaghaqakan, kronakan, kam sotsialakan halatsanqi: im kartsiqov ayq amen@ parzapes 'suti'-hayrenaserneri pa&arabanutyunner en: im kartsiqov bolorn el yekel en aystegh, vorpeszi apren aveli bareketsik kyanqov: yekel en aystegh, vorovhetev aystegh kareli e aprel aveli hesht kyanqov: yev amenakarevor@, im kartsiqov, meq PAKHEL enq aystegh, vorovhetev chenq tsankatsel mer userin krel norasteghts petutyan kayatsman tsanr partakanutyun@: aysqan@ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azat Posted July 19, 2003 Report Share Posted July 19, 2003 hmmmmmm. Well, there is alot of truth in what you said Harut, however I disagree with your last statement. Not all of us escaper Armenia because we did not want to carry the heavy load of rebuilding this new nation. Those of us who came in the 70s and 80s did not even know who Gorbachev was or what perestroika was or that Armenia was going to be an free and independent country. We came because we wanted a better life for us and our children. (I guess that is the answer my dad would give as I have no children) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harut Posted July 19, 2003 Author Report Share Posted July 19, 2003 hmmmmmm. Well, there is alot of truth in what you said Harut, however I disagree with your last statement. Not all of us escaper Armenia because we did not want to carry the heavy load of rebuilding this new nation. Those of us who came in the 70s and 80s did not even know who Gorbachev was or what perestroika was or that Armenia was going to be an free and independent country. yes, sorry, i missed that. but then, you could have always gone back during last 15 years. We came because we wanted a better life for us and our children. (I guess that is the answer my dad would give as I have no children) to tell the truth, i don't find anything wrong in it. everyone has his/her priorities.but the frostrating thing is that most don't want to accept that. that we care more about our personal (family's) lives than nation, culture, country...they just yell 'menq, mer azg@, mer hayreniq@, sents-@nents'. bayts tqats unen ed amen inchi vra, yerb harts@ gnuma andznakani masin. (eli ankakh indznits 'mkneri zhoghov@' hishetsi) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HOB Posted July 24, 2003 Report Share Posted July 24, 2003 A small remark. Number of Armenians who left the country during the last 10 years are coming back. Definitely this process will take some time but at least it starts moving. For instance I have two friends who left to US and France – now they are back and their families as well. Well the truth is that in comparison with the situation say 10 years ago presently there are much more flexibility and opportunities to launch for instance a private business or to find a job. Still, the situation is not enough that good if you compare with situation on the West but at least something is moving. I would say there’s a hope and trust in the future.Alternatively Armenian people who still reside in Western countries should make the efforts in order to bring a business to Armenian which means to increase an employment rate. But this one is completely different topic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpha Posted August 6, 2003 Report Share Posted August 6, 2003 People immigrate for many reasons, some for economic, others for political and social. First immigrants from Soviet Armenia were expatriates (local Armenians used to call them Akhpar) who moved to Armenia after the World War II. The cultural clash between the locals and the expatriates, led to resentment and ridicule of expatriates. It’s sad and tragic that local population did not embrace the expatriates as gracefully; as many expatriates thought they’d be greeted. Many had the rosy picture of Armenia, and were disappointed to find it poor and in poverty. These people took the first chance to leave Armenia, and that started the first immigration wave from Armenia in late 70’s. In early 90’s when Soviet Union collapsed it became a lot easier to immigrate. Many escaped the collapsing economy and war (I personally belong to this group). Most of the people that lived in Armenia in early 90’s remember the “hovharayin anjatumner”, where we had only 2-3 hours of electricity each day. When it was so cold you could barely feel your fingers, when people had to burn books to warm up. Those were the times when the endurance of people’s tolerance of inhumane conditions was tested. Some of us were not able to pass the test and took the road of immigration. Most went to Russia, the lucky ones to the West. No it’s not the government that was at fault, it was the loss of hope that things will get better that prompted people to leave their country. There is this saying in Russian “Nadezhda umeraet poslednim”, “i v te vremena u nas uzhe nadezhdi ne bilo”. It basically translates to “Hopes die last”, and at the time there was no hope for anything. Yes it’s a noble thing to endure hardships, and read about victories in military fields in books and newspapers, but it’s another thing to live through it. No one can blame Armenian immigrants for immigrating. When I first moved to US, many American-Armenians blamed me for leaving Armenia. My response was usually the following, “Menk ayskan tari hayrenkum aprel enk, hayrenik karucel, hima el mi kich duk gnacek hayreniki kaghcrutyun@ zgacek”. It’s great to advise people to commit noble deeds, and to endure hardships, but it’s another thing to actually do the noble thing and live through hardships. So to those who say why I came my answer would be, “there was no hope in the future”. I wanted to do something with my life and I couldn’t make my dreams come true in Armenia. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harut Posted August 6, 2003 Author Report Share Posted August 6, 2003 alphai don't blame people for leaving the country. what is frustrating to me is that most (at least that is my experience) of them don't accept the facts and tell the true reason like you just did. no one says i came here because the life in Armenia sucks and i want a better one. but they fool themselves and others by always telling all this glourious things about Armenians, Armenia, how better the life, education, morals, business, etc are in Armenia... 'yes hayrenaser em', 'yes hayreniqis tsav@ tanem'... and bring sily (IMO) reasons, such as bad president, for their leaving. you can even find people who came here in early 90s but would blame Kocharian for them being here. that IS frustrating...i know, i'm generalizing too much, but there ARE a lot of those people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boghos Posted August 6, 2003 Report Share Posted August 6, 2003 (edited) Dear Harut, At the heart of the people you mention, those that give ridiculous excuses for having left, is shame. I am not quite sure that this is a constructive shame. After all being ashamed because you supposedly "abandoned" your country or "turned your back on millenia of history, tradition and cuture" is nonsense. It is true that we are as a people faced with a dilemma after centuries of being colonized by one or another power, that of keeping the country and/or improving one´s life. My argument is that this is a false dilemma, and this is so based on at least two points: there is nothing special about being Armenian that would make you give up yor ambitions, hope and so on for some very abstract, intangible concept of preservation of country and race alone and also that there is a fallacy of composition form the individual to the nation, even though this may sound paradoxical. After all and in a very simplified manner what has kept the Armenian nation alive is not Christianity, or eating khorovadz but tenacity, obstinacy and pride and naturally dealing with temendous challenges but still feeling and making a point in reaffirming it as much as possible that we are Armenian. This is our major unifying belief, it gues much beyond anyting else. If a barely literate Armenian from Goris is proud of Lord Byron or an Armenian from Chile glows at hearing the name of Mikoyan, what does that tell you ? That we "believe". Thank God we believe. Edited August 6, 2003 by Boghos Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpha Posted August 13, 2003 Report Share Posted August 13, 2003 For those of you who are fluent in Russian, I think the article in this website answers some questions about emigration from Armenia. http://www.caucasusjournalists.net/item.asp?id=32 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boghos Posted August 24, 2003 Report Share Posted August 24, 2003 Same article in English: http://www.hetq.am/en/h-0703-vzakharian.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormig Posted December 2, 2003 Report Share Posted December 2, 2003 Just thought about posting this with regard to population. What will Armenia's situation be in this scenario? http://www.enn.com/news/2003-11-20/s_10598.asp Just a few figures in what we are already guessing about. And happily nothing about doomsday au malthus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bellthecat Posted December 2, 2003 Report Share Posted December 2, 2003 At the heart of the people you mention, those that give ridiculous excuses for having left, is shame. Unless America has an open door to all immigrants then surely the reason for lying is simply to deceive immigration officials - invent the usual fake stories about political persecution. Certainly, that is the case in Europe - though few dare say such a thing in public in Europe - saying such things will get you arrested for racism if you are an ordinary member of the public, or assasinated if you are a politician. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boghos Posted December 2, 2003 Report Share Posted December 2, 2003 I agree with you. But it has nothing to do with my previous post. I was discussing the shame that an Armenian might feel for leaving Armenia, and not the fake stories that immigrants tell the authorities. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inchkachka Posted December 3, 2003 Report Share Posted December 3, 2003 I know a lot of Armenians from Armenia who came to the USA (or Europe / Russia) and fully intended to return to Armenia. Most came to get training for getting a job. As a for instance, my wife's second cousin just came here, got his masters degree in economics, and is now about to return home. The problem is that unless your training is in business, economics, or engineering, there's really nothing for you in Armenia. You can't find a job as a mathematician or psychologist... so what happens? You stay where the jobs are. Or perhaps you marry, and maybe have children who are citizens of your "new" country. Either way it's a trap that you can't escape so easily. It's all well and good to say "go back" but when you are secure here and know that you don't even have a job there, or lack the connections to get one, how can you go back?? I've never heard anyone say they left because of political corruption. Sounds like a cover story for TV to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gamavor Posted December 3, 2003 Report Share Posted December 3, 2003 There are as many categories of emigrants as many as the emigrants are. I met a German guy who had everything in Germany. He was born and raised in West Germany, he had family and kids and nice job. I asked him why you moved here, and he said "I was bored". Right now he works as an auto-mechanic, he makes half of what he was making in Germany as an engineer and he says he is happy.Most East European emigrants have 'Georgia in their minds'. They know that they are here temporarily no matter weather they fit here or not. What keeps America running is money. People often say OK let me make another few grants and I'm going home. Then, Ok let me make another few, and another few....and when they decide to go home for good, then they realize that home is not 'home' anymore, or it has changed and became the same materialistic place as America is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shahumyan Posted December 3, 2003 Report Share Posted December 3, 2003 the main reason for leaving is for material reasons. Why would anyone want to live somewhere where u cant get water, electricity, transport and the government doesnt bring any more hope with its sickening corruption and its corrupt forcecs in police etc I was also of the opinion that Armenians should stay in armenia and fight it out, but frankly at the end of a 20km journey which took 2 hours on a shite bus, and knowing some others would have to work in the crap conditions, why would any sane person stay? I for one would leave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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