bellthecat Posted April 4, 2004 Report Share Posted April 4, 2004 Domino - He didn't actually say that Ataturk was a Fascist, (and that is an overly used term anyway). In the 1920s there were three despotic and officially Muslim states that became secular "republics". Iran, Afghanistan, and Turkey. The policies persued in all three republics were related. Afghanistan's reforms didn't outlast the 1930s, Iran's didn't outlast the 1970s. The reforms in Turkey, uniquely, seem to be permanent and are beginning to be genuinely democratic. And much of that is due to the good foundations that were laid by Ataturk. To be suggesting that everything Ataturk did was bad (or was good only for Turks) is as silly as those Turks who consider him to be almost god-like. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
America-Hye Posted April 4, 2004 Report Share Posted April 4, 2004 If the Turks consider Ataurk as God-like, why do they ignore his comments to the Los Angeles Times in 1926, where he specifcally denounces the Armenian and Pontic Greek massacres? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phantom Posted April 5, 2004 Report Share Posted April 5, 2004 If the Turks consider Ataurk as God-like, why do they ignore his comments to the Los Angeles Times in 1926, where he specifcally denounces the Armenian and Pontic Greek massacres? They don't ignore them, they just deny that he ever made those comments. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marsuvan Posted April 5, 2004 Report Share Posted April 5, 2004 hi again. if i have to define myself. i can be called as a libertarian. but real-politics forces me to find some explanations without my utopias. it can be called therapeutic rhetoric or existential b******t. genetically i' m semi cerkes semi "turk". but you know, in anatolia turkish genes are mixed with greeks and armenians. so the word "turk" must be between quation marks. anyway, i don' t care about the genes. probably, some of you may know what my nick means. as i know, marsuvan(merzifon) was an important city for armenians. and our house was next to an old church when we were living there. luckily i was grown in an anti-racist and democratic family. when we moved to ankara i had chance to meet some armenians living there. one of my teachers was an armanian. we have some armenian family friends. so i find armenians and greeks more familiar than the fundementalist muslums or nationalist bas***ds. i think, i and many people like me don' t have a place in turkish politic scala. main problem here is, somethings can' t be seen from there. many things in turkey are changing. things happening in cyprus can be an example. most of the people in turkey says yes to the annan plan. probably they would accept a "worse" plan too. also all the turks and kurds living near armenia border says the border must be opened and the passes must start without visa. the nationalist barkings or claims you hear from there are caused because of this change. and the "barkers" can' t stand this. shortly, turkey is not consist of only wolwes. after the acceptance in france parliament. those people started to bark more. on the other hand goverment, deep state(unofficial rulers) and army are trying to cut this change. and some stupid things continueing to occur. according to me, these are sensational but not important things. the claims we are trying to talk about can be seen in this paradigm. of course there are borders of empathy. so some things i didn' t mention can be misunderstood because of electronic nature of internet or my poor english. if it makes you happy i can say atatürk is a faschist. he is not my god or father. new beginning democracy in turkey will run over the cartesian kemalism and all of its faschist laws. i just wanted to say the official claims doesn' t have that much reality in daily life of the men on the streets of turkey. there are lots of gasparian and SOAD fans in turkey. (you may ask gasparian if it' s possible) gasparian been to turkey several times and his concerts were full. also there is an armenian pop singer in turkey called rober hatemo-his songs are quite bad and he sings in turkish- if you want to read objective turkish historians "ilber ortayli" may be a good beginning. since the acceptance of france, students in secondary schools are forced to write a paper about the "turkish massacres by armenian gangs". but millions of parents refused to let their children do this stupid thing. the list can go on. may be these are small things but i hope things will get better soon. lastly, i want to thank you for your welcomes and polite skepticisms (İ don' t know the meaning of the bolsohyes, so i couldn' t write anything about what nakharar has written) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gurgen Posted April 5, 2004 Report Share Posted April 5, 2004 I don't believe there is something as objectivity. The only objectivity is in maths. Whether you want it or not, you will always look on issues from your point of view. Some people maybe more, others maybe less, but it's always there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armat Posted April 5, 2004 Report Share Posted April 5, 2004 Marsuvan welcome It is interesting that your name ends with van which was an important Armenian town.It is refreshing to read you not the typical Turk we come across in forums. Instinctively I believe that not all the Turks believe the official brainwashing and progress in Arts is great. Armenian classical musicians received very well in Turkey and their program included Khachaturian and Komitas. Part of me is distrustful about “Turks” because when the young Turks came to power they promised a lot, minority rights, openness etc and in just short time those liberal Turks became the architects and the butchers of Armenians, Greeks.I can't control this mistrust.It is part of my history but we should build bridges whenever we can.In short I welcome you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakharar Posted April 6, 2004 Report Share Posted April 6, 2004 (edited) There is a thin line between libertarianism & laissez-faire attitude which can easily degenerate into fashism. I don't know why but I guess they like to be used by others. Edited April 6, 2004 by Nakharar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marsuvan Posted April 6, 2004 Report Share Posted April 6, 2004 I don't believe there is something as objectivity. The only objectivity is in maths. Whether you want it or not, you will always look on issues from your point of view. Some people maybe more, others maybe less, but it's always there. that' s true. this was our first lesson in university. i' m studying about mass communication and cultural studies. it' s arguable even in maths. but using scientific methods can make a historian scientifically objective. (this is also arguable) luckily, no haters answered me yet. i was afraiding of it. because there are lots of racist commends about turks in the forum. i always think "mainstream turkish mind" has a pathetic situation, either the "mainsteram american mind" has too. as i read from here, armenian society also shares this situation as well. there are different reasons and symptoms but same situations. situation of "young turks" can be compared with g. w. bush or neo-cons. he promised to decrease the amount of soldiers outside the USA, but he butchered the muslums for oil. (i' m atheist) while the american soldiers were defending ministry of oil, thiefs were robbing one of the most magnificent museums in the world. ruling is dirty in every way. also minority rights, openness etc. are still problem in turkey. thanks EU that it' s changing day by day. when i see the relationships between france and germany. i say; may be not in the foreseeable future but we can do it too. but i'm unsure that turks and armenians really want peace. peace will make both sides to lose one of the most important things about their national identity. (what a tragic reality) on the contrary armenians still say "hayvanoglu hayvan" or "kavat" when they get angry, turks are looking for "agop" serie of istanbul or zildjiyan symballs and i eat "topik" with rakı. you don' t have to or need to trust me of course, i can understand it. by the way, i was in greece last summer and had a great time. it' s hard but i' m planning to go armenia this summer. should i? i can' t guess how people react when i say i' m from turkey. and nakharar, i' ll take your warning about the thin line between libertarianism & laissez-faire attitude as an advice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gamavor Posted April 6, 2004 Report Share Posted April 6, 2004 Ha-Ha-Ha !!! Dude, we have 3000 years wonderful and not so wonderful history to be proud of and which can bring tons of pride to even the most ignorant person. Well, it is true that part of our pride was destroyed by your monkey compatriots, who didn't need raki in order to rape, buthcher, etc... raki came latter. The best of all is the realization that we don't need you and you don't need us. That is the perfect setting and scenario, unlike France and Germany that need each other badly. Just live your lives and we will ours. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormig Posted April 6, 2004 Report Share Posted April 6, 2004 by the way, i was in greece last summer and had a great time. it' s hard but i' m planning to go armenia this summer. should i? i can' t guess how people react when i say i' m from turkey. I think that rather than worrying about what Armenians would say about you being Turkish, you might want to consider how to get there in the first place. If you are going by land (bus), you might want to find out the situation in Georgia. I don't know how grave the situation is as it is given no coverage, but I understand there is some unrest in Adjaria at the moment, which might in some way lead you into considering going through Iran. It is indeed a pity that the border is not open for people like you to be encouraged to visit. If you are flying by plane, I suppose there is little to worry about. But, finally, what do you think would be the consequences of travelling to Armenia? What kind of a reaction from friends, family, etc., would you expect? And what about having an Armenian visa on your passport? Greek Cyprus won't give visas to people they determine to have Turkish Cypriot visas. What would happen if you wanted to go to Azerbaidjan at some point (with the same passport, of course)? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bellthecat Posted April 6, 2004 Report Share Posted April 6, 2004 If you are flying by plane, I suppose there is little to worry about. Except at Zvartnots airport (if reports about the people that work or hang around there are true). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED Posted April 6, 2004 Report Share Posted April 6, 2004 (edited) Except at Zvartnots airport (if reports about the people that work or hang around there are true). Steve, what reports? I was there as early as in 2002, I'm not sure what reports you are referring, everything was smooth and relaxed and no problem what so ever, visa, passport checking is still done by Russian guards, but that’s about it a little inconvenience, not unusual for any country Edited April 6, 2004 by Edward Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bellthecat Posted April 6, 2004 Report Share Posted April 6, 2004 All I know is what I've read here and there. Stuff like extortionate taxi prices to and from Yerevan, baggage handlers who "kidnap" your luggage and only release it when you pay them some money, customs officials who demand payments on spurious grounds or else give you as much inconvenience as possible, that sort of thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED Posted April 6, 2004 Report Share Posted April 6, 2004 The only thing is thru is that at "customs" they usually will give you a little hard time, and it’s the case only for locals and Armenians from abroad, no custom forms exist so far. The rest of what you heard is plain rubbish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gurgen Posted April 6, 2004 Report Share Posted April 6, 2004 Actually Steve is right in most of his points. The Armenian officials/guards there treat 'aghpars' very badly. They look down on you as you are some lesser being for not staying in Armenia and putting up with their curruption. Fortunately when you have a European passport they shut up very very quickly. I can only guess what how they would react to Turks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boghos Posted April 7, 2004 Report Share Posted April 7, 2004 It was not my experience nor my parents. It was quick and painless. Evidence is that it has even improved in the recent past. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
America-Hye Posted April 7, 2004 Report Share Posted April 7, 2004 From the air Zvarnots airport terminal looked like interestng architecture, but after we landed and went inside I found it to be the most depressing airport terminal I had ever been in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anonymouse Posted April 8, 2004 Report Share Posted April 8, 2004 I'm surprised Domino hasn't been ultra prolific in this thread. After all, his love for this subject is on par with Dan. One can say they are so different yet so alike. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armat Posted April 8, 2004 Report Share Posted April 8, 2004 From the air Zvarnots airport terminal looked like interestng architecture, but after we landed and went inside I found it to be the most depressing airport terminal I had ever been in. Really?Athens airport is a hole in the wall with the agents talking with their boyfriends and drinking "Greek" coffee while tired traveler's line goes out the square ugly building.Just wanted you to know this... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gurgen Posted April 8, 2004 Report Share Posted April 8, 2004 You should see the Valetta airport in Malta Armat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GKeshishian Posted April 8, 2004 Report Share Posted April 8, 2004 There is no doubt the German nation is glorious. I need only to mention two names to prove this: Einstein and Freud Has the Jewish nation ever produced such minds? The answer is clear. The deeds of the Fuhrer speak enough about his glory, but about him this I will say, he almost liberated the whole world from liberalism and would have succeeded if a certain group whose name begins with a J did not betray the Reich. Einstein was Jewish, hence being offered the first presidency of Israel. Read your history before you post ignorant remarks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gurgen Posted April 8, 2004 Report Share Posted April 8, 2004 Ehm, that was the whole point fella, you're a bit late Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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