McCarthyiologist

But, but, but... you can always call me Domino...

Hey Kid, stop meditating on those things, or you will end up just like Uncle McFadi.

If I were God, I would make the egg first. It's much easier than having to make a chicken. Also, if I were God, I would have made all chickens boneless and skinless with a hint of lemon already in their blood. hehe BTW, the new mediation I was talking about was the question raised in this topic. I said, since I found the answer to the Egg and chicken thing, I could meditate about the question raised by this topic. If you were God, we humans would have consdiered a "fat" person as normal, because would would have been all fat, because animals would be prepared already to be eaten, and that vegetarians would not be able to resist to eat them. Even Azat.

OK ! I just finished meditating about which cam first, the Egg or the chicken, and I have a starting answer for this new "meditation" of mine. Is it too late ?

OK, understood, I just have read "faster" so I supposed they were talking about the speed compared to the 8086. Ah and, I am McCarthyologue, or Professor McFadi, not Domino. Now, who will beat MosJan with a Classic Mac for me? Vava ?

If ot was an old MAC, you could have made of it an aqu.

Are you sure of that ? I mean, 600 times seems to be too smal considering that beside the clock frequencies more information per cycle could be processed.

This is nothing, I have retraced footenotes to Bournoutians works in various Turkish claims, and now the said reference becane an "official" source. Ah and, Bournoutian is still waiting appologies for having "manipulated" what he wrote, and their association to him, things he never meant.

EDITED: My post do not belong here, therfore I delet it.

Many denialists claims that Erevan was populated of 45 % of Turks, Azeris etc..., this claim has been made many times in denialist and trash sites, I had destroyed this claim in Turkey.com, under one of my alliases, unfortunitly it has been deleted. If I find the saved version of my "little" essay on the population of Armenia in this period, I will post it here. The way the denialists work is to fool the reader by passing 'Erevan" provinces as the city of "Yervan," without saying what is the BIG difference. The province of Erevan contained territories that now are not part of Armenia, those territories were the area where the concentration of Muslim was the highest, of course, when you emputate those regions, you "decrease" the population of Muslim if you consider the past "Erevan" province as the actual one. Here, for now, an interesting read about the subject of population and how it is been manipulated. I though posting that in the Karabagh section, but since it also contain the "Erevan Province." I though it was a better idea to post it in the history section. http://www.umd.umich.edu/dept/armenian/sas/bour2.html Journal of the Society for Armenian Studies (1996, 1997 [1999]) Volume 9. pp. 99-103 The Politics of Demography: Misuse of Sources on the Armenian Population of Mountainous Artsax George A. Bournoutian Introduction The Armeno-Azeri conflict over Nagorno- or Mountainous Artsax has spilled over into the academic world. Armenian historians maintain that all of Artsax was at one time part of the ancient Armenian kingdom and that the disputed territory of Nagorno-Artsax has had an Armenian majority for several hundred years. Azeri historians assert that the region was never part of Armenia and that the Armenian population of Nagorno-Artsax arrived there from Iran and Turkey after 1828, and only thanks to Russian policy, which favored Christians over Muslims, did the Armenians establish a majority in Nagorno-Artsax. That Azeri diplomats and journalists echo this claim in their statements and articles is understandable. What is lamentable is the willingness of some Western scholars to accept the Azeri claims without examining primary sources. In her study The Azerbaijani Turks: Power and Identity under Russian Rule (Stanford, CA: Hoover Institution Press, 1992), Professor Audrey Altstadt states, In the first decade of Russian rule, immigration [to the Caucasus] appears to have been confined to Russians . . . and Armenians from Iran, as provided in the Treaty of Turkmanchai. Armenian immigration affected mainly the Shemakhi, Ganje, and Karabagh regions and areas west including Erevan (p. 28). She cites my article, "The Ethnic Composition and Socio-Economic Condition of Eastern Armenia in the First Half of the Nineteenth Century," in Ronald G. Suny, ed., Transcaucasia: Nationalism and Social Change, East European series 2 (Ann Arbor: University of Michigan, 1983), pp. 77-79, as the source for this information. My study deals primarily with Erevan and Nakhichevan. Nowhere in that work, nor in my two books on the region,(1) have I ever discussed population figures for Shemakhi, Ganje, or Artsax. Altstadt, well aware of the narrow scope of my work (she participated at the conference held at the Kennan Institute in 1980 where I presented the paper cited in her work), uses it inaccurately to give credence to the Azeri point of view. By lumping Artsax with Erevan, she confuses the issue and the reader; from her footnote, those not familiar with my work would assume that it contained population data on Artsax as well as Erevan. Later in her same work, Altstadt is even less cautious, for she states, On the issue of the current majority in mountainous Karabagh, Vahabzade and Aliyarov noted that the Armenians had been a minority in most of Caucasia at the time of the Russian conquest and were encouraged to immigrate from Iran by the Treaty of Turkmanchai (1828) and Russian state policy until they formed majorities in several pockets (p. 196). An uncited Russian survey of 1832 and my article are used as the main sources for this statement. The survey lists the Armenian population of the whole of Artsax at 34.8 percent (slightly over one-third) and that of the Azeris at 64.8 percent. This time Altstadt confuses the reader by identifying the whole of Artsax with Mountainous Artsax. The Armenian population of Artsax (as will be demonstrated below) was concentrated in 8 out of the 21 districts or mahals of Artsax. These 8 districts are located in Mountainous Artsax and present-day Zangezur (then part of Artsax). Thus 34.8 percent of the population of Artsax populated 38 percent of the land. In other words the Armenians, according to the survey cited by Altstadt, formed 91.58 percent of the population of Mountainous Artsax. Altstadt continues her campaign of misinformation in a volume entitled Ethnic Conflict in the Post-Soviet World: Case Studies and Analysis (New York, 1997). She states, As a result of the Russo-Iranian Treaty of Turkmanchai (1828), thousands of Armenian families were relocated from Iran to the Caucasus. The influx of Armenians, from Iran and the Ottoman Empire, led, by the end of the century, to the formation of Armenian majorities in various areas of that region, including the mountainous part of Artsax (p. 229). My article is once again used as a source. Unfortunately, those who have the habit of copying sources without verification have used Alstadt's misleading footnotes and have further damaged my credibility as a scholar. The worst offender is Suzanne Goldenberg's Pride of Small Nations: The Caucasus and Post-Soviet Disorder (London: Zed Books, 1994), which states, Even in 1832, after considerable migration had taken place, it is generally accepted [my emphasis] that Muslims were a majority in Artsax. An official Russian survey of that year recorded that Muslims made up 64.8 percent of the region and Armenians 34.8 percent (p. 158). The note cites my article as the sole source. The survey, which I have never seen or cited, is now attributed to me. To add insult to injury, Azeri newspapers in the West, including one in Toronto, portray me as the Armenian scholar specializing in the region who agrees with the Azeri point of view. To aid Professor Altstadt and all the others who have either misused their sources or cannot decipher manuscripts, have no or poor knowledge of the necessary languages, or are just too slothful to check sources, I shall present below the information I have gathered from the primary sources on the demographics of Artsax. I hope that this material will finally clear the smoke and spare me the embarrassment of the last few years. Correct Figures on the Armenian Population of Mountainous Artsax as Derived from Primary Sources Prior to Soviet rule, the Russians conducted a number of surveys in the different regions of Transcaucasia.(2) Although not as accurate as a present-day census might be, the surveys were the first of their kind in Western Asia. In 1822, the Russian administration decided to determine the Armenian population in Transcaucasia. The survey was primarily to determine how many "non-Orthodox" Christians there were in the region.(3) The survey managed to record the number of Armenians in Georgia, Ganje (Elisavetpol), and Baku.(4) Erevan and Nakhichevan were under Persian rule and were not included. The Khan of Artsax, Mahdi-qoli, fearing that the Armenian-populated districts might be removed from his control, did not permit the survey in Artsax. Later that year, he fled to Persia, and the Russian were able to commence their first survey of Artsax. The survey began in early 1823 and was completed on 17 April of that same year.(5) Its more than 300 pages recorded both the Armenian and Muslim population, not by numbers, but by villages and tax assessments. It noted that the district of Khachen had twelve Armenian villages and no Tatar (Russian term for the Turkish population) villages; Jalapert had eight Armenian villages and no Tatar villages; Dizak had fourteen Armenian villages and one Tatar village; Gulistan had two Armenian and five Tatar villages; and Varanda had twenty-three Armenian villages and one Tatar village. Thus the five mountainous districts (generally known as Nagorno-Artsax today) which, according to Persian and Turkish sources, constituted the five (khamse) Armenian melikdoms,(6) had an overwhelming Armenian population before 1828.(7) The mahal of Tat'ew had twelve Armenian and one Tatar village; that of Kiopar, six Armenian villages; and Bargushat, two Armenian and three Tatar villages. Thus these mahals, which form part of present-day Zangezur and were a part of the larger region called Artsax, were also overwhelmingly Armenian. Armenians were also represented, in small numbers, in all the other non-nomadic districts of Artsax. It is possible that the cryptic survey cited by Altstadt was an official Russian state publication regarding the population of Caucasus which was published in St. Petersburg in 1836.(8) That source puts the Armenians of all of Artsax at approximately 19,000 and the Tatars at approximately 35,000. Thus the Armenians were 35.2% of the population, which is close to the so-called 1832 survey cited by Altstadt. The important fact is that the official 1836 survey clearly states that the Armenians were concentrated in the mountainous part of Artsax (generally called Nagorno-Artsax). Thus once again 35.2% of the population of Artsax (the Armenians) inhabited 38 percent of the land, where they formed an overwhelming majority. The Myth of Armenian Immigration from Iran and Turkey Having disposed of one myth, I shall concentrate on the question of the immigration of Armenians from Iran and Turkey into Artsax. Between 1828 and 1831, 45,207 Armenians immigrated to Erevan (23,568 from Iran and 21,639 from Turkey), and 3,883 to Nakhichevan (3,856 from Iran and 27 from Turkey).(9) The Armenians of Bayazid desired to settle in Artsax but were told that there was not enough land for them there. They were encouraged rather to settle around Lake Sevan, where Muslim tribes had evacuated. They did, and the district became known as Novo-Bayazid or New Bayazid (later Gavar and Kamo).(10) The only work which deals primarily with the Armenian immigration from Persian Azerbaijan to Russia is by Sergei Glinka.(11) He does not supply any numbers, but makes it clear that the majority of the Armenians were headed towards the newly-established Armenian Province, created from the Khanates of Erevan and Nakhichevan. An archival document, however, does shine some light on the issue. The document states that only 279 Armenian families decided to immigrate to Artsax, and that they settled in Kapan and Meghri on the banks of the Arax (in the southernmost part of Zangezur bordering Iran).(12) All documents relating to the Armenian immigration make it clear that Russia, for political, military, and economic reasons, strongly encouraged the Armenians to settle in the newly-established Armenian province, especially the region of Erevan, which between 1795 and 1827 had lost some 20,000 Armenians who had immigrated to Georgia.(13) Since few Georgian Armenians planned to return, Russia concentrated on repatriating the Armenians taken to Iran in the seventeenth century by Shah Abbas. The only major immigration into Artsax was by the former Armenians of Artsax who had escaped the oppression of its ruler Ebrahim Khan,(14) some as late as the 1790s, who had sought refuge in Ganje, Georgia, and Erevan. They began returning home after a decade or so, following the Russian protectorate over Artsax in 1805 and continued to do so until the 1820s. According to archival documents most of them returned to their own villages, which, for the most part, had remained abandoned.(15) In conclusion, non-Armenian primary sources clearly demonstrate that the Armenians of Mountainous Artsax (Nagorno-Artsax) had an overwhelming majority in the region presently claimed by them long before 1828, as far back as the seventeenth century.(16) Scholars who deal with the issues of Artsax and Nagorno-Artsax would do well to respect this fact. Iona College New Rochelle, New York Notes: 1. George A. Bournoutian, Eastern Armenia in the Last Decades of Persian Rule, 1807-1828 (Malibu, CA: Undena Publications, 1982) and The Khanate of Erevan Under Qajar Rule, 1795-1828 (Costa Mesa, CA: Mazda Publishers, 1992). 2. The first survey was conducted in Georgia at the start of the nineteenth century, and the last was the complete survey of Transcaucasia in 1897. 3. The Georgian Church was in communion with the Russian Orthodox Church. 4. Akty sobrannye Kavkzskoiu Arkheograficheskoiu Kommissieiu (Documents Pertaining to the Russian Administration of the Caucasus), VI/1 (Tiflis, 1866), doc. 601. 5. The survey, conducted by State Counselor Mogilevskii and Colonel Ermolov II (a relative of General Ermolov, commander-in-chief of the Caucasus), was printed in Tiflis in 1866 (no pagination). 6. For example see Tarikh-e Qarabagh, written by Mirza Jamal Javanshir, the vizier of Ebrahim Khan of Karabagh, manuscript no. B-712/11603, Academy of Sciences of Azerbaijan, Baku (my English translation and the facsimile in A History of Qarabagh [Costa Mesa, CA: Mazda Publishers, 1993]). 7. The survey lists Goris and Khan-Kend (present-day Step'anakert, capital of Nagorno-Artsax) as Armenian settlements. 8. Obozrenie rossiskikh vladenii za Kavkazom v statisticheskom, etnograficheskom, i finansovom otnosheniiakh (St. Petersburg, 1836), no pagination. 9. Russian survey of the Armenian Province (former Khanates of Erevan and Nakhichevan) 1829-1832 in Ivan Shopen, Istoricheskii pamiatnik sostoianiia Armianskoi-oblasti v epokhu eia prisoedineniia k Rossiskoi-Imperii (St. Petersburg: V tip. Imp. Akademii nauk, 1852), English translation of the survey in Bournoutian, The Khanate of Erevan, pp. 204-270. 10. Central State Historical Archives of Georgia (Tbilisi), record group 2/1, file 2254, f. 8. 11. S. Glinka, Opisanie pereseleniia Armian Adderbidzhanskikh v prediely Rossii (Moscow: V Tip. Lazarevykh In-ta Vostochnykh Iazykov, 1831). 12. Central State Archives of Military History, record group VUA, file 978, ff. 22-26. 13. Akty sobrannye, docs. 559, 564, 568, 570, 573, 582, 586, 614; and S. Glinka, Sobranie aktov otnosiashchikhsia k obozrenii istorii Armianskogo naroda, II (Moscow, 1838), pp. 163-166. 14. Panah Khan and his son Ebrahim Khan were the first Muslims to make any inroads into mountainous Karabagh. They controlled parts of the region from 1755 to 1805 and were responsible for the temporary Armenian emigration. 15. Archives of the Foreign Policy of Russia, record group 100/3 (Russian Relations with Armenians), file 464, ff. 5-9, 12, 189-190, 347-348; Akty sobrannye, I, docs. 871, 874.; II, doc. 1714; III, 598-600. 16. The documents cited here are included in my Russia and the Armenians of Transcaucasia, 1797-1862: A Documentary Record (Costa Mesa, CA: Mazda Publishers, 1998), which contains an annotated translation, with commentary, of hundreds of documents from various archives of the former USSR.

Here, an example of a Turk refusing the challlenge, and my offer to confront me in French. Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2003 17:19:43 +0200 From: "sensiz" | This is spam | Add to Address Book To: "armenian_genocideca" va te faire enculer sale arménien je t emmerde je t emmerde fils de poufiasse ------------------------------------------ Traduction. " Go fk yourself durty Armenian je "xxxxxx" je "xxxxxx" (note, here the word emmerde, used in the context can not be really be traducted in English, because it means many things at the same time) Son of a b-ch. " Day two, they refused the fair challenge, with pathetic excuses, of course it is easy to post trash from the French denialist site tetedeturc, but when challenged in a fair way, it's another story. It is easy to lie and forge to the general population, but when Imasdun ask them to come and "prove" their cases, no one dare. It says a lot about them, a lot. Ah and, I still am waiting from Tetedeturc that they answer my email, it has been more than a year. Such idiots and chikens... bouak, bouak, kuc, kuc...

The deniers are so easy at posting trashes and deny the genocide on places where people are easy to buy, but when a fair chalange is offered, they find excuses to refuse them. The link I provide exposes how those deniers can't even dare prove their claims in a platform that acceot everything they can bring. Have a nice read. http://www.network54.com/Forum/255190

I think this would be a good start... its one of the best work about the situation you could find on the web. http://www.nesl.edu/center/pubs/nagorno.pdf

A last thing Knight. I chalange anyone that claims the genocide never happened, those bozzu-bozook at Turkey.com telling Phantom how they already discussed about this or that and that Phantom was not allegedly able to answer, they are all open to go here. http://www.network54.com/Hide/Forum/255190 What I said, about me saying on every boards it never happened if I am defeated, is valid, and I will respect it. Don't you believe that it will give your claims a validity if I say it never happened ? Afterall, I am the Armenian that is known on all those Turkish boards, I think some like "Domino admit it never happened" will even be published in Ataa and tête de Turc(I'm still waiting they correct some reference mistakes, I emailed them more than a year ago without any answer). So, I am open, you can even call your Simsir there if you would want, I build that forum because the Gaga-gougous at Turkey.com with their pseudo-knowledge thinks they know something by attacking Phantom. So, since every Turks have escaped me, if I recieve no answer at that board, I will know what it means. My offer is open, and like I said, any Turk can go there. It never happened ? Come and chalange me, its as simple as that. Ah and, I will be the only Armenian, no other person, just as much as Turks that could be possible, afterall I am habituated, I have fought against 10 Turks at a time with no problem. So you can bring every friends you want. Good night. BTW: What have you disapeared ? EDITION: I forgot to tell something. The reason why I have been banned from Turkey.com was because some Turks started accepting the facts, I recieved myself emails from Turks from there. I became dangerious. Here an evidence from a Moderator. Phantom posted a thread after I have been banned about Censorship, one of the moderators as answer to what has been done to me wrote: You have fallen under the spell of Yolla and whatever other name he comes under here on this board. He has tricked countless of number of people's with his exageration it is unbelievable, mark my words on that. Yolla is my alias I talked about, the alias whom all the posts were deleted, this moderator to answer about the censorship issue against me said people were under my spells, I was "tricking" people, by "exagerating" about the massacres. This moderator gives here the reason why I have been banned, I was dangerious for the board, many Westerners were visiting it, many Turks were starting to believe, something should be done, assassinating my caracter, posting pornographic materials and accusing me of done it... everything,..., just people had to be liberated from my "spells" I should "stop" "tricking" them. So, here we go, the moderator has admited why what was done against me was done. At the very least, she was honnest.

What is funny is that in one of the library I consult, there is a work in French called "Les langues du monde" a book writen in the 60-70 or something, a big book of 2-3 thousand pages. In Sumerian area, they claimed something like: "No present language could be associated with Sumerian, attemps were made to link Sumerian with Turkish, but untill now those attemps failed" When I have read that years back, I said to myself, Turkish ? I was ready to accept, but making researches after researches I came to indirect references to Ataturk Historical compagny and the said excurtions in South America and the Sun theory... when I have read that, I understood what were those "attemps"