nairi Posted April 30, 2003 Report Share Posted April 30, 2003 I have a question: have Armenians ever "worshipped" or used tulips for religious, traditional or cultural reasons? If so, what and how? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Accelerated Posted May 1, 2003 Report Share Posted May 1, 2003 Why would Armos worship tulips? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vava Posted May 1, 2003 Report Share Posted May 1, 2003 I dunno - maybe cause Tulips are Armenian in origin and perhaps a few millenia ago they were cultivated for more spiritual reasons... Nairi, I have not heard of this, but it is a possibility... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Accelerated Posted May 1, 2003 Report Share Posted May 1, 2003 <_< Sorry Vava, I wasnt aware of this. Got me searching on the web a bit, and I came across this, an interesting read, and proves you half-wrong: For the origins of the tulip, we look to central Asia. This is site of their prime genetic center in the Tien-Shan and the Pamir Alai Mountain Ranges near modern day Islamabad, close to the border of Russia and China. From these areas, tulips spread to other regions including China and Mongolia to the east and to other regions to the west and northwest. A secondary genetic center developed in Azerbaijan and Armenia (Transcaucasia). From this area, tulips spread to locations which included far-flung parts of Europe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormig Posted May 1, 2003 Report Share Posted May 1, 2003 I've seen what I thought to be tulips on Armenian gravestones. Is it a similar observation that sparked your interest, Nairi? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nairi Posted May 1, 2003 Author Report Share Posted May 1, 2003 (edited) I've seen what I thought to be tulips on Armenian gravestones. Is it a similar observation that sparked your interest, Nairi?No, but that's a very interesting observation. Were the tulips etched into the gravestones, or were they "live" flowers put there by people? If etched, why do think Armenians would etch tulips on gravestones? What actually sparked my interest was the history of the tulip in Holland. I know Ottomans "worshipped" them; among other things, it was a sign of wealth for them. I've also heard that Armenians were among the Ottoman merchants who traded bulbs with Europeans (including the Dutch who made the biggest business of it in the end). But what exactly did/do Armenians feel for tulips? I know they have a strong attachment to roses, but what about tulips? Do they hold a special place for Armenians? Like Vava, I've never heard anything specific about this, but I thought someone here might know. Edit: Accel, yes, it's about tulips being a "native" flower in Armenia and surrounding areas (including Anatolia etc.). Edited May 1, 2003 by nairi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormig Posted May 1, 2003 Report Share Posted May 1, 2003 Reliefs of tulips, Nairi. One on each side of an inscription, or a cross. Or at least I thought so.Another favourite is the pomegranate. (Rhymes, too.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MosJan Posted May 1, 2003 Report Share Posted May 1, 2003 The Development of the Name "Tulip" The most obvious explanation for how the tulip got its name was its resemblance to the headgear worn by many people in the Middle East, such as the Persians -- the turban, that was also written as "toliban". Changed into Latin, this became "tulipa". With a little imagination, the flowers of some tulips do look like a turban. The actual origin of the word is unknown. ???? is turban - Toliban = Taliban ? like an Afgan TAliban ( Talib ) ???" The Role Played by Turkey Today most people (even in the Netherlands) still say that tulips originally came from Turkey and that is where their natural habitat is. But this is only partly true. A significant percentage of the tulips cultivated in the Netherlands originated from areas now considered part of Russia, around the Black Sea, in the Crimea, and from the steppes located north of the Caucasus. However in the 1500s when the tulips were first introduced into Europe, these areas belonged to what was called the great Ottoman Empire, also known as the Turkish Empire or Persia. It is known that the Turks were cultivating tulips as early as 1,000 AD. Before tulips ever reached Europe, they had enjoyed a long and rich cultural history in Persia. Where Tulips Come From it is a widely-spread misconception that tulips and other bulb flowers are native to Holland, growing wild in remote areas still. Nothing could be further from the truth. Almost no bulbous plants are native to this part of the world. For the origins of the tulip, we look to central Asia. This is site of their prime genetic center in the Tien-Shan and the Pamir Alai Mountain Ranges near modern day Islamabad, close to the border of Russia and China. From these areas, tulips spread to other regions including China and Mongolia to the east and to other regions to the west and northwest. A secondary genetic center developed in Azerbaijan and Armenia (Transcaucasia). From this area, tulips spread to locations which included far-flung parts of Europe. They are still encountered today growing wild in regions of the Balkans, Spain, Portugal, Italy, Switzerland and France. In nature there are probably no more than one hundred and fifty tulip species native to Europe. But that number depends largely on how one defines "wild species". One of these tulips, Tulipa celsiana, is found wild in southern France in the region around Toulon and Cannes. This miniature tulip grows there between the rocks, under extremely dry conditions. It is visible only for a short growth and flowering period in the early spring. Flowering is quickly followed by withering, and the plant then survives as small bulbs that not only serve to help it survive the winter but the summer as well. In any event, the advance of the tulip in nature never got so far that it reached the Netherlands, not even within 500 miles. http://www.biologie.uni-hamburg.de/b-online/ge02/12b.gif Tulipa gesneriana (tulip). A. top view of flower, B. and C. pistil overall viewB. cross section through the ovary;, D. generalized flower diagram. Flower diagrams were drawn in the last century by the German botanist A. EICHLER (1875, 1878) for most of the indigenous and foreign plant groups. They symbolize the position, number and the symmetry ratios of the flower's single components in every circle of petals (according to W. TROLL, 1975). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MosJan Posted May 1, 2003 Report Share Posted May 1, 2003 I don't know if we Armenians have ever worshipped the tulip but we do have many songs and even a dans "Kakachneri Par" - and yes you can see tulip in many old MAgarats - even in pre-Christian Armenian MAgarats,stone carrvings or names. i'l see if i can find any picks for you - just gave me some time. MOvses Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nairi Posted May 2, 2003 Author Report Share Posted May 2, 2003 Thanks for all the info Mos. And yes, I'd be very glad to see more (about Armenians that is). My question expands then: why would Armenians carve tulips on stones? And why would they make a dance dedicated to tulips? I've read/heard that Armenians were very natural people, respected and "worshipped" anything that nature had to offer. Is this why they also felt close to tulips? But what meaning did it have? We often hear of tulips being a sign of good friendship (as opposed to roses being a sign of love). Is this how Armenians view tulips as well, or do they feel something else? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anileve Posted January 21, 2004 Report Share Posted January 21, 2004 Nairi you intrigued my curiosity and got me researching. From what I understand since the Armenian culture was so closely intertwined with that of the Ottoman Empire and also influenced by many other cultures that passed through our lands rather destructively, it appears that many of their symbols were adopted by Armenians and used as emblems for various instances. Such were tulips that were widely used to symbolize Turkey as well as Persia. There is a legend I stumbled across on the net that originated in Persia as well as a bit of the history behind the flower. I guess s tulip was largely romanticized in the Middle East as well as Venice. In the East, the tulips cultivation was started over a thousand years ago. It grew wild in Persia and near Kabul the Great Mogul Baber counted thirty -three different species. According to Persian legend, the first tulips sprang up from the drops of blood shed by a lover and for a long time the tulip was the symbol of avowed love. Poets sang its praises and artists drew and painted it so often that when imported to Europe it was considered to be the symbol of the Ottoman Empire. tulips, symbols of love and desire in the ancient Middle East, instead of roses, because those were the flowers that, more than a thousand years ago, filled up the Sultans' gardens, and the pages of The Arabian Nights. And Venice has been, in the past a city turned towards the Orient as its culture, its history, its art and architecture, still testify. The Ambassador of the Holy Roman Empire sent tulip seeds and bulbs to Clusius in Vienna. He was not sure what to do with them so he planted them all in a heap and when they matured , he gave a hundred bulbs to his grocer who also not knowing quite what to do with them fried them and ate them with oil and vinegar. There are people in the world who still eat tulip bulbs of certain varieties. In some parts of Japan a flour is made of them. In times of famine the Dutch have eaten tulip bulbs when no other food was available. Wealthy people began to purchase tulip bulbs that were brought back from Turkey by Venetian merchants. In 1577, Clusius sent to England some tulip bulbs but they did not catch on at that time. In the beginning of the seventeenth century, France began to become interested in tulips. In 1610, fashionable French ladies wore corsages of tulips. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nairi Posted January 21, 2004 Author Report Share Posted January 21, 2004 Thank you! It still doesn't answer my question about the Armenian tulip culture though I'll be honest and admit that I haven't done much research myself, but I haven't coincidently come across anything specific either... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
koko Posted January 23, 2004 Report Share Posted January 23, 2004 hahahaha the word tulips come from taliban!!!!!! HAHAHAHAHAHA they make up such beautiful stories...babam how can you believe that? think!!armenian have worshipped many things in their homeland how can you see a tulip and not worship??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nairi Posted February 1, 2004 Author Report Share Posted February 1, 2004 DESIRE ******* Your smile, muscles, profile Drive me crazy, crazy I wonder if I can stand out of your arms daily, nightly. You are always in my breathings, Like the Tulip growing in dark, Don't make me wait till you lose me, I am chaos you are my light... Dragon, March 11, 2001 http://armenians.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=5263 I'm not sure what I'm looking for. Maybe a straightforward answer? I don't know. Thanks anyway to everyone who contributed to this thread and shedded some light on this interesting (?) flower. As a treat, I might post Hovhannes Shiraz's epilogue to his poem "Siamanto yev Khjezare" later. Meanwhile, enjoy the prologue (To mods with Windows: feel free to run this through this site and edit my post) NAXERGANQ Qo c'aravac' srti hamar ergis oske sap'orov Im Sip'ana Vana aknic pagh jur ar'a jerm sirov: Achqs bacvec shushani pes, ev astgherov ays gisher Lcvec matagh erkinqn hogus` sirts dard'av mi c'ov ser: Siamant'on u sirac'y' ayci ekan ind' huysov, Hoveri pes kurc'qs mtan im achqeri darbasov: Hogis taran depi Sip'an, depi c'ovakn im Vana, Taran depi draxtabuyr bard'unqnery' Sip'ana: Taran uxti aghbyury' surb, taran minchev Axt'amar, Or cht'oghnem` get' im ergov` siro mer uxtn ankatar... Bayc, a~x, nranc siro lacov u karotov hambuyri Im sap'orum arcunq dard'av coghn husheris aghbyuri: Ev arcunqis mijic vhat ind' nayecin u ancan, Siamant'on, Xjezaren` orpes mi zuyg c'iac'an: Nranc anhuys achqeri mej anbaxt mi ser kardaci, Ev im ergi arcunqnerov nranc sery' es laci: Karc'es siruys c'aghiknery' srtis vra choracan, U es y'nka mut' gisheri p'sherov li mi kac'an, Ur or jahel mi hay hoviv ev qurd aghjik mi sirun Eraznerov irar gtan mer Sip'ana sarerum: Hamburvecin hoveri pes, gaghtni siro shgharshov, Bayc psakec baxty' mr'ayl` nranc sery' lok p'shov: Ev der' c'aghik, irar c'arav, koran andard' u antes` Anapati barann y'nkac' erku kat'il jri pes: ...Bayc t'e` ereq, o~v aghjikner, ekeq Sip'an d'ez tanem Get' ergi mej` astvac'ayin siro &'an d'ez hanem: Um srti mej der' datark e' siro sap'orn hayreni` Ekeq tanem d'ez Vana c'ov, or aghbyurn e' Sip'ani: ՆԱԽԵՐԳԱՆՔ Քո ծարաված սրտի համար երգիս ոսկե սափորով Իմ Սիփանա Վանա ակնից պաղ ջուր առա ջերմ սիրով: Աչքս բացվեց շուշանի պես, և աստղերով այս գիշեր Լցվեց մատաղ երկինքն հոգուս` սիրտս դարձավ մի ծով սեր: Սիամանթոն ու սիրածը այցի եկան ինձ հույսով, Հովերի պես կուրծքս մտան իմ աչքերի դարբասով: Հոգիս տարան դեպի Սիփան, դեպի ծովակն իմ Վանա, Տարան դեպի դրախտաբույր բարձունքները Սիփանա: Տարան ուխտի աղբյուրը սուրբ, տարան մինչև Ախթամար, Որ չթողնեմ` գեթ իմ երգով` սիրո մեր ուխտն անկատար... Բայց, ա՜խ, նրանց սիրո լացով ու կարոտով համբույրի Իմ սափորում արցունք դարձավ ցողն հուշերիս աղբյուրի: Եվ արցունքիս միջից վհատ ինձ նայեցին ու անցան, Սիամանթոն, Խջեզարեն` որպես մի զույգ ծիածան: Նրանց անհույս աչքերի մեջ անբախտ մի սեր կարդացի, Եվ իմ երգի արցունքներով նրանց սերը ես լացի: Կարծես սիրույս ծաղիկները սրտիս վրա չորացան, ՈՒ ես ընկա մութ գիշերի փշերով լի մի կածան, ՈՒր որ ջահել մի հայ հովիվ և քուրդ աղջիկ մի սիրուն Երազներով իրար գտան մեր Սիփանա սարերում: Համբուրվեցին հովերի պես, գաղտնի սիրո շղարշով, Բայց պսակեց բախտը մռայլ` նրանց սերը լոկ փշով: Եվ դեռ ծաղիկ, իրար ծարավ, կորան անդարձ ու անտես` Անապատի բարանն ընկած երկու կաթիլ ջրի պես: ...Բայց թե` եկեք, ո՜վ աղջիկներ, եկեք Սիփան ձեզ տանեմ Գեթ երգի մեջ` աստվածային սիրո ճամփան ձեզ հանեմ: ՈՒմ սրտի մեջ դեռ դատարկ է սիրո սափորն հայրենի` Եկեք տանեմ ձեզ Վանա ծով, որ աղբյուրն է Սիփանի: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bellthecat Posted February 1, 2004 Report Share Posted February 1, 2004 Were the tulips etched into the gravestones, or were they "live" flowers put there by people? If etched, why do think Armenians would etch tulips on gravestones? I'll try and post some pictures of such stones, later. Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bellthecat Posted February 1, 2004 Report Share Posted February 1, 2004 Gravestone from an abandoned village near Kemaliye (Egin) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bellthecat Posted February 1, 2004 Report Share Posted February 1, 2004 And another, this time there is no cross on the stone, only the tulip that is growing from a pot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bellthecat Posted February 1, 2004 Report Share Posted February 1, 2004 The flower at the very top of the last image may be a rose. These stones were from a graveyard next to a church whose inscription I posted here ages ago, to get translated. Inscription said church was dedicated to "Saint Nicolas", also there was a gravestone in Greek. Both these things, together with the fact that the church was not listed in the Constantinople patriarchate's list of active churches, might suggest that this village was not inhabited by "ordinary" Armenian Christians. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bellthecat Posted February 1, 2004 Report Share Posted February 1, 2004 Hmm ...when did I become a "veteran"! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vava Posted February 2, 2004 Report Share Posted February 2, 2004 Bell, you were always a veteran Thanks for the picks BTW. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harut Posted February 2, 2004 Report Share Posted February 2, 2004 Steve, are you sure those are tulips? tulips, in simlistic form (like the ones on stones) are very similar with pomegranate flowers. could they be pomegranate flowers? as we know they were used (painted, drawed) A LOT. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vava Posted February 2, 2004 Report Share Posted February 2, 2004 Harut jan, I've never seen pomegranate flowers. Would you happen to have any pics? Especially in an Armenian, historical context. Thanks in advance if you do... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormig Posted February 2, 2004 Report Share Posted February 2, 2004 As I recall pomegranate flowers don't look at all like tulips. Besides, they are on the pomegranate tree (or shrub-bordering-on-tree, not very tall), whereas tulips are depicted as they are - with long stalks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bellthecat Posted February 2, 2004 Report Share Posted February 2, 2004 Steve, are you sure those are tulips? tulips, in simlistic form (like the ones on stones) are very similar with pomegranate flowers. could they be pomegranate flowers? as we know they were used (painted, drawed) A LOT. They are tulips - I'm certain. That is the traditional way they are always depicted. The only doubt is whether the flower at the top is a tulip or a rose (or maybe, perhaps, a pomegranate flower?). Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nairi Posted February 3, 2004 Author Report Share Posted February 3, 2004 Thank you very much Steve!! Do you have clue as to what it might mean? They look a lot like lilies (shushan, I think, in Armenian and also used quite frequently, also in writing -- see the above poem, line 3, in which he says that his eye opened like a shushan) as well, or not? (Let's drive Steve crazy ) pomegranate flowers Is there a name for these flowers? I'm sure there must be. What is it in Armenian? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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