Azat Posted February 3, 2004 Report Share Posted February 3, 2004 I wish I had a close up of the picture from my tree. Here is the tree with flowers on it and in 2-3 months I will get you a close up when it blooms again. Flower Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormig Posted February 3, 2004 Report Share Posted February 3, 2004 I wish I had a close up of the picture from my tree. Here is the tree with flowers on it and in 2-3 months I will get you a close up when it blooms again. Flower Yep! Hope you had a good harvest, Azaty Poo! Which reminds me - I've got a few more in the cellar that I should be tasting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azat Posted February 3, 2004 Report Share Posted February 3, 2004 Yes i did Stormy. About 40-50 from that small tree. Very amazing. http://www.webzone.dk/oman/oman/images/Dyr%20og%20planter/Blomster%20paa%20Jabel%20Akhdar.jpg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bellthecat Posted February 3, 2004 Report Share Posted February 3, 2004 Thank you very much Steve!! Do you have clue as to what it might mean? They look a lot like lilies (shushan, I think, in Armenian and also used quite frequently, also in writing -- see the above poem, line 3, in which he says that his eye opened like a shushan) as well, or not? (Let's drive Steve crazy ) pomegranate flowers Is there a name for these flowers? I'm sure there must be. What is it in Armenian? A lily grows from a bulb like a tulip - so it might be that the symbolic meaning that was once attatched to a lily is being transferred to a tulip. But what that meaning is, I don't know! The way they are depicted on those stones is similar to the way they are depicted on Iznik tiles. The lily is a symbol associated with the Virgin Mary, but again I don't know why - maybe their whiteness stood for purity, maybe the fact that they don't reproduce using seeds gives them a virginal quality. I'm sure the info is buried away in some book somewhere! I remember reading that the lily in the form of a fleur-de-lys is a symbol that originated in the middle east, and was brought to France during the crusades, where it became a heraldic symbol. The French word for pomegranate is translated as "hand grenade" in my french-English translation software! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bellthecat Posted February 3, 2004 Report Share Posted February 3, 2004 Azat - thanks for that picture. I was always puzzled by something about the reliefs on the Aghtamar island church. The most common plants depicted, after grape-vines, are pomegranate bushes. But, although the fruit was always obviously a pomegranate fruit, the leaves looked nothing like pomegranate leaves! Looking at that photo, I think that it is might be the flowers that are being depicted, and not the leaves. Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nairi Posted February 5, 2004 Author Report Share Posted February 5, 2004 Thanks Steve! In fact there is a book out there, English of course explaining what all the flowers mean. I forgot the name, but I'll post it as soon as I find out. Maybe you know what I'm talking about. If I'm right, it's from the 18th century, maybe even earlier. By the way, pomegranate flower is "golinar" in Persian (Armenians in Persia would call it "gulinar", also used as a proper name for girls). Still don't know what it is in Armenian... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bellthecat Posted February 5, 2004 Report Share Posted February 5, 2004 Thanks Steve! In fact there is a book out there, English of course explaining what all the flowers mean. I forgot the name, but I'll post it as soon as I find out. Maybe you know what I'm talking about. If I'm right, it's from the 18th century, maybe even earlier. By the way, pomegranate flower is "golinar" in Persian (Armenians in Persia would call it "gulinar", also used as a proper name for girls). Still don't know what it is in Armenian... No, I don't know the book, Nairi. But I'd be interested to know what it says about flowers like lilys, tulips, roses, etc., as well as imaginary plants like the tree of life. I thought "Gul" meant "rose" in Persian? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arpa Posted February 5, 2004 Report Share Posted February 5, 2004 How about "nourvard'? I had already composed this even before I saw "golinar". It got me thinking and I looked it up. The Sukyasian Dictionary of Synonyms under "tsghik", among others has this. "jolinar; dried pomegrenate flowers". Besides the figs to me one of the most nostalgig scenes, besids the khachkars and all those religious symbols at the Ejmiatsin compound is the nrenis in full blossom at one time and laden with ripe fruits at another. Further, the same dictionary under "nrnatsaghik" has these- Jolinar, nran tsaghik, pousila??, siron, siroun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nairi Posted February 6, 2004 Author Report Share Posted February 6, 2004 This is just amazing. I looked up nran (of (a) pomegranate) and found: nreni, nri, nrneni: a pomegranate - the tree (in English "pomegranate" is both the tree as well as the fruit). nrnut: a pomegranate orchard. I even found npatakadrvatsutyun, but I found nothing about a flower! As for nur (pomegranate - the fruit), there was only an entry for nur. I thought "Gul" meant "rose" in Persian? It does Here's the first page that comes up on google: http://www.weddingvendors.com/baby-names/meaning/gulinar/ Arpa, how about nurgul? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arpa Posted February 7, 2004 Report Share Posted February 7, 2004 Allow me to say this for the umpteenth time. It is beyond me why those "stupid" Persians who speak an IE language insist on using that stupid Semtic script that is totally unsuited to their literature?? Having had that of my chest again... Here is what that site has to say; Origin and Meaning of First Name Gulinar What is the ethnic origin? Arabic What does it mean? Pomegranate flower. What's the gender (commonly)? Female I have no idea where those so called lexicopgraphers and linguists(?) get their information! Reminds me of the time when I wrote to the editors of the Websters' advising them that (the word)"yogurt" is not, cannot be of Turkish origin based on the fact that the word is based on "yogh/yegh/yagh", the Armenian word for "fat" and that it is of IE origin even if the Turks use "yagh", an obvious loan from Armenian. Of course, I got an answer defending their editors' position and arguing that "yogurt" has been used for almost a 1000 years. So, what else is new?? 1000 years ago the Turks learned some Armenian, among others "yagh". If only one million Armenians would write and complain!!! The Colombosians don't say anything about the matter. They are also convinced that the word is of Turkish origin!! Which brings us to the "Arabic"?? origin of "gul". My Persian dictionary does not give a source of origin. However based on the fact that there is no G sound in the Arabic, except in dilaects such as the Egyptian where the J is pronounced as G as in Gamal(Jamal) AbdelNasser, it sheds doubt on at least its Arabic origin as to the sound of the "U" in gul, I must plead ignorance. How do the Persians pronounce it? U as in "poor" or U as in the French "une"? The Turks pronounce it as in the latter. Is there the of U as in the French in Persian? The Arabic word for rose is "ward" just like the Armenian, and just like the Armenian they use the owrd in proper names as well, mostly female as in the very popular "Wardeh" (remember that in the Arabic, just like in the Latin the "eh/a" ending is femininizing). I still think "nurvard" is more Armenian thane "nurgul", that is if we take that "vard" may be be generically taken to mean flower. Besides nrneni is a member of the Rosacea family of plants. Did I say that according to some sources Armenian the word for grenade, the hand held bomb is "nrnak"?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nairi Posted February 7, 2004 Author Report Share Posted February 7, 2004 Did I say that according to some sources Armenian the word for grenade, the hand held bomb is "nrnak"?? No But I found that one as well while browsing through my dictionary. I also found nrnahat (the seed of the pomegranate fruit), nrna&aq (cracked like a pomegranate fruit, or with a red crack of the color of a pomegranate), and nrnaqar (expensive stone, usually of the pomegranate color), but again, nothing about flowers. As for gul, I remember reading a groong article a few years ago (I doubt its reliability, if I may) in which gul was claimed to have descended from the Armenian vard. Gul itself had apparently turned into rose via Greek to Latin. As for nurgul: it was just a joke I'm sure you caught that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormig Posted February 7, 2004 Report Share Posted February 7, 2004 U as in "poor" or U as in the French "une"? Probably the former, but I've always heard the word as "gol" among talking Persians. I may not be right. As for the latter, Arabic doesn't have that sound as well, yet Turkish-appropriated Arabic nouns appear with such abundantly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nairi Posted February 7, 2004 Author Report Share Posted February 7, 2004 Let me take a few things back Golanar is the Farsi, which Armenians used to pronounce gulinar and used it not only for a female name but also for sour cherries -- a whole different fruit. As for "gul", it is spelled "gl" (without a vowel, like most Semitic script), and is pronounced "gol" and is a rose in Farsi. So you're right about that one Storms; it is "gol" and not "gul", even though Persians do have an /u/ as in Harut (eli korar Harut???). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arpa Posted February 8, 2004 Report Share Posted February 8, 2004 Let me take a few things back Golanar is the Farsi, which Armenians used to pronounce gulinar and used it not only for a female name but also for sour cherries -- a whole different fruit. As for "gul", it is spelled "gl" (without a vowel, like most Semitic script), and is pronounced "gol" and is a rose in Farsi. So you're right about that one Storms; it is "gol" and not "gul", even though Persians do have an /u/ as in Harut (eli korar Harut???). That damn semitic script. If I were to say it all seems Greek to!!! There are several entries of "gl". As always unless one knows those idiotic languages one cannot read the script. Whether the absent vowel is u o e i a or whatever the hell. I still don't know if the Persians have the sound of u as in Buzant, and if the "gl" is gyul, goul, or gol, however one of the entries does indicate that one the "gl"s is "gol" as in "goal", you know, the score in hockey and soccer. I also learned something that I had never given a thought. One one Galust Gulbenkians relatives is Gullabi. There is a scholarship named for him. Yes "him". I always thought that Gullabi was a female, it turns out not. I will it to you to tell us what "gullab" means. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nairi Posted February 8, 2004 Author Report Share Posted February 8, 2004 No, Persian doesn't have a French, Turkish or German /u/ as in "une", "gül" and "für" respectively. Sorry, forgot to mention it earlier... edit: oh and "gel" in Farsi means "mud" and is also spelled "gl". The /g/ in "gel" is the same as the /g/ in English "good" btw. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arpa Posted February 8, 2004 Report Share Posted February 8, 2004 No, Persian doesn't have a French, Turkish or German /u/ as in "une", "gül" and "für" respectively. Sorry, forgot to mention it earlier... I was afraid so. So then, how do the Persians pronounce "gul"? Is it gol or goul? We may have been assuming that they peonoince it like the Turks with the umlatted u as in Fuhrer. If not then they either borrowed it from the Turkish (not Arabic as we saw above), horror of horrors!! or the Turks borrowed it and bent the U. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arpa Posted February 8, 2004 Report Share Posted February 8, 2004 (edited) Btw, Nairi, when do you sleep? Do you? It is past 9PM here and it must be about 2 or 3 AM in Tulipistan. Not to get personal but I just wanted to use the word "tulipistan". :) And, oh! Thanks for stinking the place up with that "Limburger" of yours. :) Edited February 8, 2004 by Arpa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nairi Posted February 8, 2004 Author Report Share Posted February 8, 2004 Me never sleep I'm hitting bed soon, don't worry. As for gol, the /o/ is the same as the /o/ we use in Armenian. As for Tulipistan, I still prefer Hashland Sorry... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vava Posted February 8, 2004 Report Share Posted February 8, 2004 As for Tulipistan, I still prefer Hashland Sorry... HAHAHAHAHAHA Very nice Nairi jan! I'll be sure to refer to your lovely country as such in the future Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormig Posted February 8, 2004 Report Share Posted February 8, 2004 I also learned something that I had never given a thought. One one Galust Gulbenkians relatives is Gullabi. There is a scholarship named for him. Yes "him". I always thought that Gullabi was a female, it turns out not. I will it to you to tell us what "gullab" means. Rose water? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nairi Posted February 16, 2004 Author Report Share Posted February 16, 2004 No, I don't know the book, Nairi. But I'd be interested to know what it says about flowers like lilys, tulips, roses, etc., as well as imaginary plants like the tree of life. Actually, there's a lot of (European) books out there, modern and old, on flower symbolism. This particular book that I was referring to was in fact written by 19th century French poet Theophile Gautier. I'm unable to find the title however. There's quite a bit on google as well, but like these countless books, they each have their own meanings, depending on time and place. I guess what we (I) really want is a book on Armenian flower symbolism through the ages. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harut Posted February 24, 2004 Report Share Posted February 24, 2004 look at the tulips in lower right corner but then again there are other flowers too. http://www.tacentral.com/echmiadzin/images/cathedral/frontal_bg.jpg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azat Posted April 18, 2004 Report Share Posted April 18, 2004 Azat - thanks for that picture. I was always puzzled by something about the reliefs on the Aghtamar island church. The most common plants depicted, after grape-vines, are pomegranate bushes. But, although the fruit was always obviously a pomegranate fruit, the leaves looked nothing like pomegranate leaves! Looking at that photo, I think that it is might be the flowers that are being depicted, and not the leaves. Steve Steve, Here are few pictures of the Pomegranate tree in my yard right now. It is flowering right now so I too these few pics. Start of flower http://www.azat.net/flowers/photos/photo_106.html full blown flower http://www.azat.net/flowers/photos/photo_107.html Flower petals fallen off http://www.azat.net/flowers/photos/photo_108.html Another one without the pettals http://www.azat.net/flowers/photos/photo_109.html few more http://www.azat.net/flowers/photos/photo_139.html http://www.azat.net/flowers/photos/photo_140.html http://www.azat.net/flowers/photos/photo_141.html http://www.azat.net/flowers/photos/photo_142.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nairi Posted June 5, 2004 Author Report Share Posted June 5, 2004 As promised, here's the epilogue to "Siamanto and Khjezare"... ՎԵՐՋԵՐԳ Բայց այն ձորում, ամեն տարի, ամեն գարնան բացվելուն, Երկու ծաղիկ են հայտնվում` երկու կակաչ տխրանուն. Ասում են, թե չկար երկրում ոչ մի ծաղիկ` սիրտը սև, Այն օրվանից աշխարհ եկան կակաչները սրտասև, Երբ որ Խջեն, Սիամանթոն ընկան սիրո կես ճամփին, Ընկան, հանգան, բայց սուրբ սիրուց աշխարհ եկան վերստին: Աշխարհ եկան կակաչ դարձած, որ բացվում են դեռ այսպես` Իրենք կարմիր, սրտները սև` իրենց էն սև բախտի պես: Ահա ինչու շուտ են թափվում նուրբ թերթերը կակաչի, Շատ վիշտ տեսած` շուտ են թափվում` հենց որ մի չար ձեռ դիպչի. Բայց թեքելով գլուխ գլխի` հավերժ իրար են նայում, Մահվան մեջ էլ հավերժ սիրով, հավերժ իրար փայփայում... For those who don't understand Armenian, the story is basically about two lovers, the Armenian Siamanto and the Kurdish Khjezare who die near mount Sipan at Lake Van and metaphorically come back to life every spring as tulips. Shiraz says in this epilogue that the tulip is the only flower in the world that has a black heart. The black heart (or pollen/anthers) represents their miserable fate. I actually checked reality with this, and it turns out that the "heart" of a tulip is indeed black. I had never noticed it before... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arpa Posted June 5, 2004 Report Share Posted June 5, 2004 As promised, here's the epilogue to "Siamanto and Khjezare"... ՎԵՐՋԵՐԳ Բայց թեքելով գլուխ գլխի` հավերժ իրար են նայում, Մահվան մեջ էլ հավերժ սիրով, հավերժ իրար փայփայում... The black heart (or pollen/anthers) represents their miserable fate. I actually checked reality with this, and it turns out that the "heart" of a tulip is indeed black. I had never noticed it before... That was wonderful Nairi. Give us some more. About the black heart of tulip, I could help bu think of Al Dumas' The Black Tulip. See here; http://www.online-literature.com/dumas/black_tulip/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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