THOTH Posted January 21, 2002 Report Share Posted January 21, 2002 quote:Originally posted by ARTURian:About Bible, i think it is the only perfect book to know and learn how to live. Have obejections?Please - (read this if you dare) http://www.dimensional.com/~randl/tcont.htm and http://www.ugcs.caltech.edu/~werdna/contra...ons/cindex.html Another excellent one: http://home.att.net/~j-buckner/tough.html Here are some good ones from the last site:Biblical Values:1. When Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit, why did God lie about what the outcome would be (Genesis 2:17),9 while the serpent told the truth (Genesis 3:5,22)? 2. Why are women treated as chattel and inferior to men throughout the Bible?10 3. Why is the Old Testament and most of the New Testament addressed only to free men, and not to women or slaves? Does God deal only with free males?11 4. Why does the Bible condone slavery?12 5. Why does Yahweh command genocide,13 including the killing of infants? Why does he command that all women who have "known a man" be slaughtered, but the soldiers are to keep the young virgins for their own use (Numbers 31:14-18)? Why does the Bible portray Yahweh as worse than Hitler (Deuteronomy 20:16-17)? Isn't it blasphemous to call the Bible "God's Word," when it libels him so? Oh and here are some more: http://www.infidels.org/library/magazines/...tsr/index.shtml http://www.talkorigins.org/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sip Posted January 21, 2002 Report Share Posted January 21, 2002 quote:Originally posted by ARTURian:...Visited your website... check out Sip type of jokes:Relatives{CUT}...I am my own grandpa!Did you write it yourself? ))No I didn't! I am not that talented The day I was putting that page of my site together (which is still far from done), someone had forwarded that to me and I found it very funny. And NO, I WILL NEVER BE MY OWN GRANDPA no matter how much I talk about changing with times!!!! http://zr2.cs.ucla.edu/Sip/zr2/bigs.gif Just to be clear on things: The society in the US for example is very far from perfect. The issues that you mentioned, like lack of respect for elders/parents and on the other side lack of respect for childeren from parents is a BIG problem. So I am not saying that we should abandon the Armenian way of life! I am saying that we should pick the bests of both worlds. What am I saying here specifically? I am talking about women having equal say and equal rights. Now you seem to think that that will lead to the chaos that the western societies are facing ... it is a valid point that many seem to agree with (but maybe not on this board though ).But the way I see things is that most of the problems in society spring from selfishness and a lack of understanding of the big picture. Most of the problems here in the US are caused by "I want, I want, I want, and me, me, me, me, me ..." and not because women are considered more of equals to men than before. Hope I was clear in my rambling above !!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sip Posted January 21, 2002 Report Share Posted January 21, 2002 By the way, maybe we should move to a different thread for the bible discussion... I have a feeling that could take a while Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arturian Posted January 21, 2002 Report Share Posted January 21, 2002 Sip, women do have equal rights and say! Our constitution regardless od the sex gives the same rights to both gnedres.  So there is no discrimination. Within the family though it is up to you. So, from my point of view and i think i have proved that the family should have a strict structure and hierarcy of man being on the top, so there will be no arguments. But God forbid this doesn't mean disrespect. Woman should be treated and respected by her husband the highest. About religion, bro i am ready to start the discussions, but if its gonna be like this one... me against 10 of you, i won't have time to even reload my AK ))) Too much academic work, bro. BTW, If MJ takes my side i am ready for the war. : )))))  Regards,Artur Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arturian Posted January 21, 2002 Report Share Posted January 21, 2002 ... [ January 21, 2002: Message edited by: ARTURian ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted January 22, 2002 Report Share Posted January 22, 2002 quote:Originally posted by ARTURian:i think i have proved that the family should have a strict structure and hierarcy of man being on the top, so there will be no arguments. But God forbid this doesn't mean disrespect. Woman should be treated and respected by her husband the highest.Regards,ArturHope you don't think you have actually "proved" that...like you "proved" the Bible to be perfect perhaps...I imagine an honor killing could be interpreted as showing "respect" for the women...from your point of view of course... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucid_dream Posted January 22, 2002 Report Share Posted January 22, 2002 quotei think i have proved that the family should have a strict structure and hierarcy of man being on the top, so there will be no arguments...ARTURian WHAT WHAat whatttttttt????? I DON'T THINK SOoo....women are no less than a man to be put any lower on that structure you just mentioned.... No arguments eh? of course there will be no arguements, you will order her around like a King and she'll listen to everything you say and do it for like a servant? RIGHT ? THAT'S WHAT U WANT?... that's pathetic....are you living in the 16th century or what? I'm sorry but we're better than that, we have our own minds and believe me aren't afraid of using it. (and i do feel sorry for the dependant women who do fall in the trap of being in that subclass, and remember this, the only reason why they would take that treatment is because they are dependant on you and basically have nowhere else to turn.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azat Posted January 22, 2002 Report Share Posted January 22, 2002 quote:Originally posted by ARTURian:Within the family though it is up to you. So, from my point of view and i think i have proved that the family should have a strict structure and hierarcy of man being on the top, so there will be no argumentsDear Artur,What is it that you think that you have prooven? Because in my mind and I would guess in the minds of 80%, 90%, maybe 99% of the people who read this thread you have not prooven anything?As far as your comment about women have equal rights because of constitution and laws, this subject was never about that. Maybe you should reread it one more time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azat Posted January 22, 2002 Report Share Posted January 22, 2002 quote:Originally posted by Lucid_dream:...THAT'S WHAT U WANT?... that's pathetic....are you living in the 16th century or what?...He is actually living in the 16th century wishing it was 12th century. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arturian Posted January 22, 2002 Report Share Posted January 22, 2002 Lucid, slow it down, girl. :) pls read my previous posts as i don't want to explain over and over again the same things. When you read all my posts... then ask me questions. I've never said that women are slaves, less educated, afaraid etc. etc. Pls read my posts as for now i can;t argue with you over things i've never said. 16 century? Is it according to Bible or your new mathematical system that i am living in 16th century? Read the bible about the Babylon and you will find out that YOU are back to the times of 10 000 BC with your "modern" lifestyle  Azad constitutional rights i was refering to Sip saying just the word rights. About family... it should have its own consitution.  About your 80, 90%. I think there won't even be 2% of people changing their attitude after leaving forum. So far I think i have proven that with a clear family structure there only can be peace and long-lasting family. Disagree ??? Should we start again ? :)) Don't think so... Thoth you are funny. I would argue with you if you'd have read the bible and brought those arguments by yourself. But there are so many articles on the net, so i won't be able to even read what you have shown me. Bible is still the most perfect book for the family as a whole. I suggest you to read it, it explains many things in very good way. I said i am ready to duscuss but i am waiting for partners to do that. Calling for MJ!  BTW, do you see how generally american armenians have changed? They don't follow their traditions, they forget their morals, they now contradict Bible and at the same time call themselves the first Christian nation. See, how american way of living twisted your mind, bro... unfortunatly in totally wrong direction. :) lol But it's never too late to think again and change. :)))))))  God bless you all!Artur Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elesarus Posted January 22, 2002 Report Share Posted January 22, 2002 Russians say:Â " Baba za ruljom kak obezyana s granatoy".I'm completely agree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nvard Posted January 22, 2002 Report Share Posted January 22, 2002 quote:Originally posted by elesarus:Russians say:" Baba za ruljom kak obezyana s granatoy".I'm completely agree.I like the other one..."Mujiki vse i vsegda kozly " Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hasmiek Posted January 22, 2002 Report Share Posted January 22, 2002 Hi arturian, _you say "Bible is still the most perfect book for the family as a whole". Well, you can't say that.because of the following:1) On what criterea is 'best book' tested.2) If you have set up criterea; did you read all the books in the world to note that the bible meets this criterea best? and you should't talk so much in percentages; I expect you didn't do a research in philosophy's of life before entering the hyeforum, and after entering the hyeforum. And if you did so; on how may people so we can look in what way those statements are verified. And you note "Thoth you are funny. I would argue with you if you'd have read the bible and brought those arguments by yourself. But there are so many articles on the net, so i won't be able to even read what you have shown me"How do you know he hasn't read the bible; maybe he has the same point of view as the articles on the net.  and; if you were a proper christian boy you would read what he shows you and try to 'help' him to understand it better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucid_dream Posted January 22, 2002 Report Share Posted January 22, 2002 I don't have to read your previous posts, nor the bible Artur jan... & I never asked you to explain anything.  From that one sentence: "hierarcy of man being on the top, so there will be no arguments"I can tell what type of mentality you have and what your intentions are.... I never said that you said that we are less educated or whatnot, all I said was what I believed you represented yourself as. Have a nice day.  [ January 22, 2002: Message edited by: Lucid_dream ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nellie Posted January 22, 2002 Report Share Posted January 22, 2002 Lucid dream, even though I don't agree exactly with ARtur's mentality, I have to clarify for everyone on the forum who probably hasn't been reading all the posts, that ARtur doesn't mean any disrespect to women, he never said women should be slaves for men, etc, etc, etc. He just wants to live his life very differently from the rest of us. Arthur, the only reason this discussion is going on continuously is because you've failed to prove any and all of your points, but for some reason, u feel that u have. I respect all ur opinions, u have as much right to ur opinions as we do to ours. what we're trying to do is get u to see a little differently. For ex, how do u plan on having an intimate relationship with your wife if u can't talk about sex with her. I understand u want to be respectful to the girls on the forum, but truthfully speaking, I doubt any of the girls on the forum are offended of the topic. boys and girls get sex ed in the 7th grade nowadays, come on. Personally speaking, i'm a biochem major, i've had so many bio classes, covered so many different issues regarding sex and the reproductive system, u can't possibly tald about sex and offend me, however, there's different ways of going about this, obviously if u're vulgar u'll upset all of the girls.About the bible, it is almost perfect in terms of what it preaches--morality, values, etc. the rest, however, is bull. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anshnork Posted January 22, 2002 Report Share Posted January 22, 2002 Arthur-I understand that you've had a bad experience living in a western family. However, how can you judge ALL of Europe and the United States based on the problems of ONE messed up family. It is obvious that those problems that you described occur in families (in both western and non-western, I might add), however, there are millions of other families that function much more efficiently. If the children disrespect their parents, it is not because they happen to be raised in a Western society, but because their parents did not do a great job raising them. My point is that you cannot use such a small sample to make such generalizations about western society as a whole. For when you do this, you ignore the enormous number of families that simply do not fit into your assumptions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arturian Posted January 22, 2002 Report Share Posted January 22, 2002 Nvard... zachem tak ghestoko?  nellie, about sex... don't you think it is personal thing between man and woman, and to discuss in public it is a bit too "not nice"? That's the point. Here we discuss women driving, so i'd like to live this subject alone. As for me we don't talk about it in presence of girls. About my point i will try to put it in another way. When two person engage themselves they start building something called family. The main goal of that family is to raise kids in such way that they have everything: education, happiness, health, better clothes etc. etc. In order to accomplish this goal, there should be healthy family, without any problems between father and mother. However, there might be many disagreements between father and mother over some issues. In order to make sure these problems setelled fast, there has to be someone on the top making final decision. And with that it stops the disagreement and solves the problem. Therefore man, should take into account with respect to his wife, her attitude, and then make a decision. E.g. woman wanting to drive a car... when she asks for that, man says it might be a bad idea, cos she might hirt herself. So, with man's word being the last the problem is solved and there are no arguments and no problems any more. However woman shouldn't misunderstand it. It is not about disrespect, but about care and love from her husband as he cares about her health and the future of their kids in general. BTW Sip, your joke reminds me of Jerry Springer show. : ))) About bible, it indeed preaches morality and the way family should operate. The main points: parents should do everything for their kids... kids should respect their parents. Woman should be commited to her man. Wereas man should do the same with the highest respect. etc.  Regards,Artur Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sip Posted January 23, 2002 Report Share Posted January 23, 2002 quote:Originally posted by nellie:... Personally speaking, i'm a biochem major, i've had so many bio classes, covered so many different issues regarding sex and the reproductive system, u can't possibly tald about sex and offend me ...Boy did I choose the WRONG major All they teach us are 0s and 1s ... and then once you learn those really well, they just give you some more 0s and 1s to play with http://zr2.cs.ucla.edu/Sip/zr2/roflmao.gif .Just to help Arthur a bit here, none of us has 'proven' anything. We all have our opinions. The only thing that is completely clear to me is that Arthur's view of the family structure puts the woman in a lower position than the man. I tottaly understand about respect, etc, etc, but Arthur, what it comes down to, is that in ALL your posts you keep saying that the male has the final word. My question is why the male? Is it because of the usual "it has been written so it shall be done?" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arturian Posted January 23, 2002 Report Share Posted January 23, 2002 [ January 23, 2002: Message edited by: ARTURian ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arturian Posted January 23, 2002 Report Share Posted January 23, 2002 Amazing news!!! My brother's(cousin's) wife gave birth to a boy baby today morning! I am uncle again!!!!!! amazing... another kid - another happiness in our house, and there are no words to express it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  Hasmiek, if you think that i am naive, then i don't blame you... you are a product of your society, as you can't even picture family working this way. But my brother's family is totally like that. And healthy kid in healthy family... what else a man can ask God...  Anyways,,,, i am off to the church... RegardsVery Happy Artur Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hasmiek Posted January 23, 2002 Report Share Posted January 23, 2002 congratulations Artur, on the new life in your family. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
koko Posted January 23, 2002 Report Share Posted January 23, 2002 You speak just like a muslim Artur. SHAME ON YOU Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted January 23, 2002 Report Share Posted January 23, 2002 quote:Originally posted by ARTURian:Thanks, Sip...More or less. It is fundumental... Catholicos can't be a woman, the defender of the land shouldn't be a woman. Woman as mother associated with tenderness and purity, the risks are left for the man. If you change and put woman on the top, this would mean woman should take all the risks and decisions, and man should sit there under her protection with kids. You can't throw woman to fight against Turks, while you site with kids... can you? If you say yes, then THAT would mean the biggest disrespect to women. So there are differences which God put between man and woman... if you don't believe in God... then change the word God to nature. Best of luck!Artur[ January 23, 2002: Message edited by: ARTURian ]Yes, I agree - how naive you are. Somehow I don't see childbirth as all tenderness and purity. It takes strength and determination beyond that which most men can/could handle. So on that basis I beleive women should be in charge - hows that? really now - I supose I can't blame you for wanting to hold onto the power - who wouldn't - or I should say - who - that isn't enlightened or secure in themselves - wouldn't. Im my mind its high time that men like you are put in their place. Sure i believe there are differences in the sexes - and if we agree on that then why not let the natural process of things sort itself out - without imposing arbitrary restictions - I mean what are you really afraid of (its losing power/control...because without it you really fear you have nothing else). yes - no need to be kind, caring, considerate yourself - no need to show the children such - just order the woman to do it - and to get your coffee and rub your feet too. I find these type of attitudes disguting (and I am a man) - just as I find slavery in all of its form abhorrent. You just don't seem to see that these values you espouse and hold so dear are akin to that of slaveholders who also rationalize why they are superior, why thigs are as they are and have been, and why there is no reason for change. If you say you do not believe in superiority of the male - then how can you say that the man has the last word in all things (to prevent arguments -are you really trying to say that your decisions are so superior that they cannot be improved upon by the input [or veto etc] of your spouse? Again if you are saying this you are only displaying your fear of losing control. What - don't think you will win the argument(s) - if not then perhaps you aren't so superior after all - eh? No - your another "might makes right" type of guy - just like the (Young) Turks in 1915. Enjoy your good company. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hasmiek Posted January 23, 2002 Report Share Posted January 23, 2002 well, don't worry, at some point dominant men like artur will learn about women, and will see that things are not so simple as that he would like them to be. even in armenia. (just think about the abortion question...who has the last word on that..exactly!) well,As I am clearly a cictim of my society, and trust me; very happy about it, I can say that I'm truly happy to be born here in amsterdam, where I learnt to treat a man with love, not because he is in charge, but only because I want to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted January 23, 2002 Report Share Posted January 23, 2002 hasmiek -Â Yes agreed, and what Arthur and others like him fail to appreciate is that here in the States and in Europe there still exists much of the traditional family - and thats perfectly OK - if thats what folks want. Additionally many families, such as my own, where my wife works and we divide/share our family responsibilities/duties/say equally, may in fact not be all that much differnt in many respects then the "traditional" family. There is love - of each other and the children - and all of the rest. I think it is a misconception that some (like Taliban/Arthur) have that everyone in the West is just wild and immoral....and that there is something inherrently wrong in giving women (and everyone) equal rights & such.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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