Armenia and Russia

[nairakev]

P.S. Naira, sorry about the format of my answers. Given my time restrictions, today, this was the best I could come with.

 

It's OK, Martin! I think I have enough work with what you have already wrote.

Your messages, made my work doubled.

Well, finally, I prefer to chat with you then to do the work that I'm doing now. Do not ask what I'm doing? It's a long and boring story.

 

 

(i thought)There were incidents of Turkish rockets come close to Yerevan. Of course, Turkish government explained this by "military exercises", "protection of border". In some cases that was true. But that's the official line.

(you thought)

I remember the incident. These things should not be taken out of their proportions. They happen everywhere and all the time. They are called ‘border incidents.”

 

Martin! Martin! Martin!

You asked the reasons. I've droped them in letters. So if you remember this accident. And if you think that they happen everywhere and all the time. They are called ‘border incidents.” .

It actually doesn't ease Armenia's prblems. If you have learned history, as you said. Most of wars start from small incidents. Don't consume incidents easily.

 

I never actually doubted that you're not relaxed with what's going in Armenia. Otherwise you wouldn't have spent so much time on our discussions here. You wouldn't really have spent so much time on trying to relax me, if you were relaxed

 

Though, by saying you seem kinda dude, calm relaxed about Armenia, I meant that from far its easy for you (as well for me) to define Armenia's internal and foreign policy strategies. And your suggestions, which I find very interesting and I'm sure they make more sense than what's happenning in reality in Armenia, are mostly floting on the surface of goodwill than trying to dig into profound of reality to give actually 'reasonable suggestions' for those who face hard days in that suffering country. Those who deal each day with their unfriendly neighbourhood and deep economic crisis as from inside as well from outside.

 

By saying this, I do not intend in no way to suggest you to change your mind or worse, to stop expressing your ideas, which I like to hear (it's so sweet to dream), but often I don't see the way to fit them into the reality.

 

... (about)Bush ..... I proudly can report that I have voted for that ‘idiot’ and have been satisfied with his level of education – Bachelors degree from Yale, and MBA from Harvard.

 

I care less about his level of education. He can be a "diploma" collector. Afterwards I didn't say he doesn't have education, that wasn't the issue. The issue is that he is an "idiot". Why? I have three reasons for calling him that way. I hope it's enough:

- 1. The leader of one of world's largest democracies and world's largest economies. Cannont justify the rejection of Kyoto treaty, where the world environment is concerned, by saying we leave an economic crisis. I'm not saying the situation is easy in the USA. Though there is a crisis. Any word said by him is scannered. And saying that we can't sign we have economic problems. It's like let's pollute the air, and when the economy will get better will try to restore. There are things that humans cannot restore.

-2. He suggested new anti-missle programmme (luckily EU declined it). What an ass? Where he'll get money for anti-missle programme. At the same time he is the guy who refused to sign Kyoto treaty, because of so-called economic difficulties. Well, he seems to be stuck in Cold War era. I can't imagine you support him, when you talk about demilitarisation of Armenia.

- Third. When he was governer of Texas, this state was the biggest US 'slaughter-house' (it didn't change either after his departure, but whatever, he is responsible for that as well). During 5 years the State of Texas has executed 152 prisoners. You talk about his education. So what? What his education means to him, did it enrich his poor head? He critises chinese regime, and he behaves like chinese leaders, who execute their prisoners as well.

 

I can't like this guy. He is simply square-headed "soft" reactionist, who tries to mutate and fit in today's US nomenclatura.

His mutation can work only for americans. But he can't blind the rest of the world.

 

You should come to Europe and or you should go to Asia, or may be to Russia and see how people now look at USA, in part because of GW Bush.

...in company with Putin they will bring back good old days. What a progress! Bush-Putin!

 

I also think very highly of the education level of Americans, if by that we don’t mean erudition.

No. I don't mean by that the erudition.

I've visited many times the USA. I love this country. But I won't live there. I stay in Europe as for now.

The reason, why I refused to stay in the US (even for 6 months), is the way US people actually eat, drink, make parties, think, make love and joke. There was a huge cultural shock for me, after droping by there from Europe (Paris, London, Amsterdam, Berlin).

It is just a question of preference. I prefer european culture and education. That doesn't mean that US culture is non-existent or poor. It exists one way for americans and another way for non-americans.

 

Education is smth for rich mostly. Do not tell me about computerised classes or science in the US. There are lots of stuff that US doesn't have and Europeans do have in education sector.

US economy is rich that's true. But it's poor when you look at general education.

All people I met in US, where relatively mid-class americans from 18-35.

They knew very-well US. Some, who have been abroad, knew a bit the world.

I did have fun with thoses people, but it's shocking the way they think about existential questions "health" "love" "sex" "drugs". So categoris, intolerant!

Boy! Is this an education, when they say why should I pay taxes for the one who got cancer because of "smoking". I quit smoking! They should all quit! It may sound rediculous. But that's the education for me. Social awareness. In europe, if they will discuss the problem with "smoking" they will never bring tax issues in the middle of that talk. It's unwritten moral rule in most of european societies. And this is a part of education which is brought by many participants: school, government, society, media, familly.

 

 

There is more equality in Europe, though European economy may seem less wealthier than the US.

 

The american model of life for me will be "born for working", european way "work for living". I don't know if I expressed properly. And the way americans consume their attitude to the work, the same way they built their education.

 

It is the only, perhaps, leading country in the world, that has not practiced colonialism and imperialism, and has not plundered some other nation’s wealth.

Well, here... sorry!.. but you sound like...ex-soviet radio-speaker...turn inside-out.

 

This what Bolsheviks would say if they were americans...Outch! What I'm saying...

---------------

P.S.

Martin!

I enjoy talking to you. But I'm tired a bit. I'll take a break.

[MJ]

If you have learned history, as you said. Most of wars start from small incidents.

 

Any examples?

 

I never actually doubted that you're not relaxed with what's going in Armenia. Otherwise you wouldn't have spent so much time on our discussions here. You wouldn't really have spent so much time on trying to relax me, if you were relaxed

 

Glad to be the therapist I am.

 

Though, by saying you seem kinda dude, calm relaxed about Armenia, I meant that from far its easy for you (as well for me) to define Armenia's internal and foreign policy strategies. And your suggestions, which I find very interesting and I'm sure they make more sense than what's happening in reality in Armenia, are mostly floting on the surface of goodwill than trying to dig into profound of reality to give actually 'reasonable suggestions' for those who face hard days in that suffering country. Those who deal each day with their unfriendly neighborhood and deep economic crisis as from inside as well from outside.

 

Let me disagree with you one more time, please. A couple of postings ago you admitted that what I advocate is pretty much in-line with what the government of Armenia is trying to do. Additionally, what do you want me to do? Hara-kiri? Would that satisfy you? May those of us who have relatively good lives also have the right to express opinions? After all, we are not guilty in the negative developments surrounding Armenia… Or are we? But what reality were you referring to? There are so many levels of reality… To which scope of reality should we confine ourselves?

 

I care less about his level of education. He can be a "diploma" collector. Afterwards I didn't say he doesn't have education, that wasn't the issue. The issue is that he is an "idiot". Why? I have three reasons for calling him that way. I hope it's enough:- 1. The leader of one of world's largest democracies and world's largest economies. Cannont justify the rejection of Kyoto treaty, where the world environment is concerned, by saying we leave an economic crisis. I'm not saying the situation is easy in the USA. Though there is a crisis. Any word said by him is scannered. And saying that we can't sign we have economic problems. It's like let's pollute the air, and when the economy will get better will try to restore. There are things that humans cannot restore.

 

I think you have misheard him. Can you refer me to the speech where he has said that? Additionally, I have expressed my opinion on this subject in our forum in the past (see Energy related issues of our forum). Would refrain from repeating myself.

 

-2. He suggested new anti-missile program (luckily EU declined it). What an ass? Where he'll get money for anti-missile program. At the same time he is the guy who refused to sign Kyoto treaty, because of so-called economic difficulties. Well, he seems to be stuck in Cold War era. I can't imagine you support him, when you talk about demilitarisation of Armenia.

 

Why are you concerned about the American budget, and where they would find money from? Isn’t it his problem? Again, as to Kyoto, where do you get your information from? And how can EU accept or decline a US anti-missile program?

 

Third. When he was governer of Texas, this state was the biggest US 'slaughter-house' (it didn't change either after his departure, but whatever, he is responsible for that as well). During 5 years the State of Texas has executed 152 prisoners. You talk about his education. So what? What his education means to him, did it enrich his poor head? He critises chinese regime, and he behaves like chinese leaders, who execute their prisoners as well.

 

Let me disagree with you, again. The ‘slaughter-house’ Texas may be, is characteristic to Texas and the culture of its population. The absolute majority of US is supportive of the death penalty. Unlike in Russia (and Armenia), in the US, the Judicial, Legislative and Executive branches are separated on both Federal and State levels, in the real sense of the word. The governor of the state has nothing to do with the executions, other than being able to postpone it for a very limited period of time (if not mistaken 24 hours), and even that when recommended to do so by a special independent committee. And even then, he can do it only if there is an evidence that the guilt of the charged is not established beyond the reasonable doubt or the charged has not had adequate access/representation in the courts.

 

By the way, how about his proposal that US may be ready to share the anti-missile defense with Russia and other countries? Why does the anti-missile defense project bother you this much, when I don’t see that the missile projects bother you? Why is this defensive military mechanism so bad, when the offensive ones are OK?

 

No. I don't mean by that the erudition.I've visited many times the USA. I love this country. But I won't live there. I stay in Europe as for now. The reason, why I refused to stay in the US (even for 6 months), is the way US people actually eat, drink, make parties, think, make love and joke. There was a huge cultural shock for me, after dropping by there from Europe (Paris, London, Amsterdam, Berlin). It is just a question of preference. I prefer European culture and education. That doesn't mean that US culture is non-existent or poor. It exists one way for Americans and another way for non-Americans.

 

That’s fine, Naira. But why all this anger? What has US done to you? You don’t like it, you don’t go there… What’s the problem?

 

Education is something for rich mostly.

 

You are so misinformed about it...

 

Do not tell me about computerised classes or science in the US. There are lots of stuff that US doesn't have and Europeans do have in education sector. US economy is rich that's true. But it's poor when you look at general education. All people I met in US, where relatively mid-class americans from 18-35. They knew very-well US. Some, who have been abroad, knew a bit the world. I did have fun with those people, but it's shocking the way they think about existential questions "health" "love" "sex" "drugs". So categoric, intolerant! Boy! Is this an education, when they say why I pay taxes for the one who got cancer because of "smoking". I quit smoking! They should all quit! It may sound rediculous. But that's the education for me. Social awareness. In Europe, if they will discuss the problem with "smoking" they will never bring tax issues in the middle of that talk. It's unwritten moral rule in most of European societies. And this is a part of education, which is brought by many participants: school, government, society, media, family.

 

I should say, Naira, that your views on US are too simplistic and uninformed, and your exposure is so limited... The US is a very diverse country with a population of a very broad spectrum.

 

The American model of life for me will be "born for working", European way "work for living". I don't know if I expressed properly. And the way Americans consume their attitude to the work, the same way they built their education.

 

Fine. Means you don’t fit in that culture. But is that the criterion for judging America and Americans?

 

Well, here... sorry!.. but you sound like...ex-soviet radio-speaker...turn inside-out. This what Bolsheviks would say if they were Americans...Outch! What I'm saying...

 

Instead of throwing insults, could you express yourself on the merits of the issue, please?

 

P.S. BTW, how did all this relate to Armenia and Russia? Especially the Bush-part?

[nairakev]

I liked you joke about therapist.

That was fun.

By the way I don't think I succed to pass you my ideas. I'm aware of my bad English. But it seems to me that you take too personally, my purposes (especially the ones on USA). There wasn't any anger towards USA. Try to read again what I wrote.

 

In brief

War exemple:

-------

Look how the wars in 20th century have started: World Wars and Regional ones as well.

 

Though talking about incidents. Turkey never has been mistaken about shooting rockets in the direction of Yerevan during all military excersises before the USSR's break-down. You needed Nagorno-Artsax conflict and weakening of Russia's International influence to make that happen. Sorry! I don't beleive in coincidences, when it comes to Turkey-Armenia relationship. There was lots of tension arround Artsax to allow myself beleive in a coincidence.

 

----------

Here is the URL of the article on NATO negotiations which are held in Budapest.

http://www.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/europe/05/29...g.04/index.html

 

--------------

Martin,

When I talked about Bush I never intended to cite wordly what he have said.

All I know he refused to sign the Kyoto treaty. Isn't it enough for you. I'm not interested in reading what he said. I'm interested to know what he have done actually. For the time being on this issue there was no change of US position, as I know. If it has changed. Good. Then tell me about it!

[nairakev]

I've looked again through our written dialogue. And I've stoped on this intentionally.

You wrote:

Instead of throwing insults, could you express yourself on the merits of the issue, please?

Martin,

you're scaring me. If you took something I've said, as an insult, I appologise.

I'm really sad to read it. May be, it's my fault, that I took you ready to such let's say 'direct' way of talking. But, please, understand, that I had no, I would stress again, no intention to insult you personally.

I appologise for whatever you might take as an insult.

I'll try to be more careful with my English.

[nairakev]

MJ,

I thought you lived in Armenia, when the Artsax war has started and the USSR lived his break-down.

There were years of chaos in Armenia, but also in evry soviet republic. Russian governments were changing as far as physisian's change their gloves. Azeris in Nachichevan destroyed kilometers of Turkish and iranian border.

Turkey had many times concetrated its army arround the border.

There were incidents of turkish rockets come close to Yerevan.

Of course, Turkish government explained this by "military exercises", "protection of border". In some cases that was true. But that's the official line.

 

I'm not going into the details to bring the day by day chronique between 1989-1991. But these were the hard years. USSR was breaking into pieces, and the situation was disastrious.

When I'm talking about Turkey's agressionin Cyprus. I meant NATO and UN, of course.

Turkey ignored its NATO partners and UN resolutions as well.

I won't define UN as only "a moral court". UN has security structures as well. Not efficient but it has.

 

After all, I don't see why Greece should be blamed in provoking Turkey. Secondly, I don't see why Turkey got caught by provokes. It is not an excuse.

By the way it's Turkey occupying the North of Cyprus, not Greece.

 

On your question "Do you think Turkey is really interested in the Karabagh issue?"

I'd say, why not. Turkey's ambitions go further than Artsax.

 

I liked when recently Georgians and Azeri accused armenian diplomacy in paranoia. Because Georgia and Turkey were holding military negotiations.

 

I'd prefer honestly to be accused in paranoia and prevent any military syndicalism, than seating arround and watching "world events".

 

I enjoy as well talking to you.

Though you seem kinda dude, calm relaxed about Armenia. Like if Armenia was 300 miles from the US border.

 

But unfortunately Armenia is still there where it was before. And that region is full of trouble.

 

 

---------------

P.S.

I found this in your previous post:

In my view, that pace depends on the progress of the dialog between America and Iran. This is the axis around which the geopolitical transformation of our region will take place, if any.

I would add "progress of the dialog between America and Iran" and EU-Iran, Russia-Iran.

America was left already once to hold dialogues with Iran. And one of such dilogues ended-up by "Irangate scandale". I won't be as positive as you are about US position in the region.

With the arrival of Bush, one can say there won't be any position at all.

 

I'm not suprised that this idiot got the power in this country, with the level of education that dominates in the US. There will be some more Bushes I guess.

I'm not talking baout your level of education. About the general level of education in the USA, which is on my point of view is "alarming".

BTW, your eduction level doesn't seem to be 'american'. I feel some foreign influences in it.

 

[ May 29, 2001: Message edited by: naira ]

[MJ]

Dear Naira,

 

I am affraid you have misunderstood my last expression. It has ment to be an encouragement - it is not "Go away." Or did I misunderstand your reaction?

[nairakev]

Martin,
No, sweet heart!
I did not misunderstand you. I would not have thought such a stupid think "Go away!".
I'm busy with someone else on discussions which interest me no less, that what we were discussing here.
I'll catch you, later.

[nairakev]

Yeah, I forgot this!

[MJ]

Your English is very good, Naira.

 

WWI and WWII have started for very serious reasons, I think. Other than the Ethiopia-Eritrea, I am not aware of any regional wars that have started for non-serious reasons, at least in the 20th century. Illuminate me further, please.

 

I haven’t spoken about coincidences. I have just spoken about not taking things out of their proportions.

 

About Kyoto treaty… What you said is not enough for me. Don’t you think that before we call somebody an "idiot" on the grounds of the Kyoto treaty, we ought to study first what the Kyoto treaty was about, whether it was a rational treaty as far as its merits were concerned, and so on? And then, can you cite one country in the world, other than Romania, that has signed it?

 

Additionally, do you know that the Kyoto treaty was overwhelmingly rejected by the US Senate way before Bushes arrival to the office?

 

As to the material on NATO consultations that you have sited in your previous posting, I have to note that it comes to support my arguments. It say that there were some disagreements by France and Germany on the subject of the “language of the proposal,” but over all, the openness of the US administration not to make serious decisions on the subject without consulting the allies was very warmly received. It goes also to say that even Putin may be open to such discussions. It also sites the US allies wishing that the prposed system "doesn't promote further arms race, but adds security." I don't see any contradiction here with what the Europeans claim, and what the US administration is promoting.

 

Therefore, I propose leaving the subject to the specialists, and taking the uninformed rhetoric out of it.

[MJ]

BTW, I didn't say that I was insulted, I just suggested that rather than throwing insults around, we should discuss things based on the merits of the arguments.

[nairakev]

I agree: let's leave this to specialists.

I accept your compliment about my English.

It's nice somehow... though I suspect that it was a flattering ...

[MJ]

No... It was just dismissive of your other explanations.

[nairakev]

You are the man!

[MJ]

Go, girl!

[nairakev]

images/smiles/converted/icon_rolleyes.gif

[nairakev]

[Berj]

WWI Cronology

MJ,

Please, visit the link above. Pay attention to what was Russia doing when the war started. The Russian army was in Van, Bitlis, Moush, Erzeroum in mid 1916. And it retreated in late 1917 after the Bolsheviks came to power.

[MJ]

Berj,

 

Thanks for the link. But when was the Armenian population of the Eastern provinces of Turkey subjected to extermination? For example, in the province of Erzrum?

 

The chronology you referenced claims:"April - July MIDDLE EAST Turkish massacres of 800,000 (?) Armenians." Somehow it makes an impression that the Gencided was conducted in three months - April-July. It is a little bit arguable in my view. In fact (as much as my facts may be correct), a significant portion of the Armenian population of the eastern provinces was dealth with after the Russian retreat.

 

[ May 30, 2001: Message edited by: MJ ]

[Berj]

MJ,

I provided that link as a reference to what was Russia dealing with on the Western (European) battlefields when the Genocide started. Now, sinchronize that with the following:

Genocide Map

Genocide Cronology

I take the cronology from the above link of US based ANI institute:
------------------------------------
1916 (January-June)

February 16-The Russian Army occupies Erzerum.
April 15-The Russian Army occupies Trebizond

1916 (July-December)

July 6-The Russian Army occupies Bayburt and Erzinjan.

1918

January 28
The German General Hans Friedrich von Seeckt, at the time Chief of Staff of the Turkish Army, is instructed to prevent Turkish atrocities against the Armenians of the Caucasus, since the Russian armies had fallen apart in the aftermath of the Russian Revolution and the Turks were advancing almost unopposed.
---------------------------------

MJ, ...aftermath of the Russian Bolshevik Revolution. After coming to power in October 1917 the Bolsheviks were not giving any orders to the Czarist Army either on the Western front or in the Caucasus. Moreover they executed the leadership of the Czarist Army's General Staff which lead to the complete demoralisation of the troops, who walked home without any orders.
And you're most correct in saying that "a significant portion of the Armenian population of the eastern provinces was dealt with after the Russian retreat".

[MJ]

Berj,

 

I understand your premise, however, don't see how does it relive Russia from its share of responsibility.

 

I also don't see Bolshevism being something non-Russian. It was very Russian, in my view, as I have slightly articulated it before.

 

After all, if Russia may be allowed to alienate itself from the Bolsheviks, then Turkey also should be allowed to alienate itself from the CPU.

 

[ May 30, 2001: Message edited by: MJ ]

[nairakev]

Hi there!
I see you have advanced somehow. I enjoyed my break though, but I love to meet my old friends again.

There are moments that I agree with both of you. There are moments that I diasgree as well. Sorry!

Talking about share of responsibility .

I think most of us while trying to do their outmost to fish for the board more convincing arguments, get caught by their personal emotions.

Arguments are important in the discussion touching political issues no matter they are covered by emotions or by cool devotion to the truthfulness of the subject. This situational behaviour the French call 'sang-froid'.

Although of my sympathy for those who are 'sang-froid' and for those who bring arguments covered by emotions.

I think noone should bring 'half-argumented' arguments and try to shout "gently" at the face of his adverser, while being sure that arguments are 'soaped' by their 'inintegralité' to the subject.

Sometimes adversers are more gentle and they do not want to shout or , worse, to make shut-up their opponent with more complete arguments.

--------
I understand your premise, however, don't see how does it relive Russia from its share of responsibility.

I don't think someone will get luck on trying to argument against such a mal-intended question! Though Russia is the half of this thread's topic, I don't think it will be possiblle to reply without crossing borders.

We should analyse, in that case, the situation in Germany (which was Turkey's principle ally during WWI), France (which has droped down Syrian armenians against turks), we should take a deep look through what can be Great Britain's share of responsibility (as a major power, which did not try to save even "survived victims").

And as for desert we could try to have something surrealist: american 'hot dogs' with cherry 'catch-up' and 'choclate mustard'. While degusting this dilicious american speciality we could, plounge our cool heads into 'delirous meditations' on Woodrow Thomas Wilson's Republic of Armenia mandate, forgotten in many dialogues in this forums.

After all, we'll succeed to declare World War III, by starting from China that has never heard about Armenian Genocide and never officially recognised the fact of chinese ancestry of Vardan Mamikonias's dynasty and finishing by Columbia which have never payed our copyright fee for naming one of its cities Armenia.

(just out of topic note: It's funny, by the way, this poor columbian town was destroyed during an earthquake recently, it was before the Turkish earthquake. Natural coincidence! I heard in L.A. it's a bit shaky as well. That explains somehow 'le sarcasm noir' which rumours about a "respectful amount of 'shaken' armenians in L.A.")

After all, if Russia may be allowed to alienate itself from the Bolsheviks, then Turkey also should be allowed to alienate itself from the CPU.

I guess noone besides you tries to disallow Turkey alienate itself from the CPU.

I never heard about "progressist" leaders of Armenian diaspora, trying to stick "etiquettes" on Turks, Turkish State or Turkish people.
If you mean reactionists, they have always existed in Armenian Diaspora. In "normal" societies they are called "extreme rights".

I don't know about your political convictions, but I mostly sympathise those who hold "progressist" position in Genocide related issues.
Which maintains basicly a very 'pacific' position to modern Turkey. Progressive thinkers are trying to learn their lessons and help Turkey as well to pass exams. Armenian dispora is wide-spread, it cannot belong to USA, RUSSIA, GERMANY, UK, ARGENTINA, LEBANON, IRAN, TURKEY, FRANCE, neither to ARMENIA.
We are buiding a new society without borders. This society counts 86 years of modern existence, as modern Turkey counts 78 years of existence.
They have to learn to live with their past, we should learn to live with our reality. And the reality is that we are spread. And this is going probably last forever.

The only hope for not going into 'disappearance' is to find the way to exist in human society with this double 'nationality'. Those who give up - assimilate perfectly - and there is no use for giving them names.

If we continue thinking that the Russians are Bolsheviks, the Germans are nazi, the French are frog-eaters, we'll become as well bolshevik, as better nazi, and excelllent "frog gourmands".

Doesn't it go against our consciense to think that way? My consciense is ill, if no!

[MJ]

Dear Naira,

 

Come again, please... (let me see if I may also be coquettish ).

[nairakev]

Hi, MJ!
It's been a long time. Nice to see you back. I thought to hear some coquettish answers. Your coquettish look actually reminds me someone... ...
How bad, I feel like I look into the mirror!

Do you think you are really a therapist?

[MJ]

Maybe we have met in the past - what do you know? Therefore, don't beat me, please...

Yes, I do think. But only a shock therapist.

[nairakev]

I love shock therapists!

Common, shock me, sweet heart!