wh00t Posted January 7, 2003 Report Share Posted January 7, 2003 Why is it that the most successful Armenians are the ones that have rejected their Armenian heritage? Cher wants nothing to do with us. Ditto Garry Kasparov. I would have thought the same of Andre Agassi had he not briefly acknowledged his heritage on "The Armenian-Americans". Furthermore, why is it that the biggest champions of the Armenian cause are those who rejected their Armenian heritage in the past? Atom Egoyan wanted nothing more than to distance himself from being Armenian when he was a teenager growing up in Vancouver, and now has done immeasurable good for Armenian awareness. I know nothing of Kirk Kirkorian being a card-carrying AYF member during his youth, but now the billionaire is pumping millions of dollars into the economy of the ROA. Where I live, in order to be seen as a "true Armenian", you must fulfill the following criteria: 1. Speak fluent Armenian. The level of fluency in Armenian must be equal to, if not greater than, the level of fluency in the official languages of the country.2. 95% of friends must be Armenian. 100% is preferable.3. Do not challenge the fundamentals of Armenian culture and church. I do not meet these standards. I have greater devotion to the Cause than most in the area but am rejected nonetheless. Those on this Forum with the best ideas are those who have little or nothing to do with the community at large. Armenians need to stick together to ensure the survival of the nation, but this can be done without sheltering ourselves from the rest of society. Nor must this be achieved by shunning those who do not fit into the idealistic image of an Armenian: half-Armenians, Armenians who do not speak perfect Armenian, etc. It is no wonder that the disenchanted are moving on to achieve great things. [ January 07, 2003, 10:53 AM: Message edited by: wh00t ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khodja Posted January 7, 2003 Report Share Posted January 7, 2003 You have crytallized the essence of our collective demise. What held us together through centuries in the homeland does not work in the present diaspora. The Jews successfully made the transition. We have not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted January 7, 2003 Report Share Posted January 7, 2003 wh00t - I hear you! Begs the question - what is important in life - living or clinging to ideals... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vava Posted January 7, 2003 Report Share Posted January 7, 2003 ok,ok! You raise very good points, and as someone who speaks less than perfect armenian, I am totally inclined to agree with you. But there is a point to be made that: 1. If we are not ardent in maintaining lingual/cultural proficiency, in a simple matter of a few generations All Armenian Diasporans will be assimilated. 2. We are a people that have very little left of our ancestral homeland. Compound that with the economic reality of present day Armenia, re-cultivating ( ) our culture will be very difficult without the participation of the Diaspora. 3. The Armenian culture is rich in Art, Literature, Archictecture, History, Music etc. It would be a true shame for these elements to be completely lost. My conclusion is that Diasporan Armenians have a duty to ensure the propogation of their language and culture. Those who cannot contribute to the culture itself, either because they themselves have been assimilated, etc. contribute financially to the institutions that will maintain the culture. It is through this sense of duty that many Armenians who 'have rejected their culture in the past' make great contributions to Armenia, and Armenian institutions. quote:Originally posted by THOTH:Begs the question - what is important in life - living or clinging to ideals...Are they mutually exclusive? I certainly hope not! We can live & prosper, AND uphold our ideals, non? [ January 07, 2003, 08:47 PM: Message edited by: vava ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gamavor Posted January 7, 2003 Report Share Posted January 7, 2003 quote:Originally posted by hagarag:You have crytallized the essence of our collective demise. What held us together through centuries in the homeland does not work in the present diaspora. The Jews successfully made the transition. We have not.Hagarag, I thought we had concluded silent agreement about Jews. If you start again with these ridiculous comparisons I will resort again to my habitual foul language and I will not ask for apology. I think you suffer from messianic syndrome.Why don't you compare Armenians to Greeks, Albanians, Serbs, Lithuanians (Russians hate them like hell), Spaniards, Italians, etc..Jews have Diaspora for 2000 years. Armenian Diaspora is 100 years old. I don't count the constant exodus since 5 century, because these people left voluntaraly be it as military personnel, merchants, craftsmen etc.. To Wh00t. "Amot e!". This exclamation is still popular among many Diasporans. Young Armenians tend to assimilate not because they are not proud of being Armenians, but because they are uncomfortable being Armenians. Because whenever someone does something that is not in-line with the "tick" heads, they will exclaim "Amot e".Some time ago a book was published for a country, representing fair view of what this country is. The respective community get mad, because they believed that the author intentionally tryed to put them down. Even the most liberal members of that European community condemned the book and right now they are waiting for a court hearing. On the other hand it is always good to have Ara Baliozian to remind us that we don't need to be more catholic than the Pope. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wh00t Posted January 7, 2003 Author Report Share Posted January 7, 2003 Dear vava, Of course, I agree with you. The sustainment of Armenian culture and language is essential to the ultimate survival of our nation. However, the fact that we are so few in numbers and susceptible to eventual extinction makes it all the more bizarre that we would reject certain members of our community who do not fit into certain criteria. If there is an Armenian who wants to be accepted in the community, but does not "qualify" by the unspoken standards that we set, then s/he can make up for it in other ways. No, I don't have all-Armenian friends and I rarely speak Armenian outside of home. However, I am always up-to-date on contemporary Armenian happenings, fairly well-informed about Armenian past and recent history, and regularly engage in independent torchbearing through letterwriting and other means. Why am I any less Armenian than any kid that shows up at Kermes? We are what, 7 million in the world? What gives us the right to pick and choose who among us are the most desirable to keep? Does this mean we accept an ever-diminishing population as long as those that are left are "true Armenians"? How can we complain about assimilation and simultaneously continue this type of behavior? Dear gamavor, "Amot e!" How often have we heard this phrase? You know something is wrong when major news services are describing the nation of Armenia as "ultraconservative". [ January 07, 2003, 05:39 PM: Message edited by: wh00t ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shiner Posted January 7, 2003 Report Share Posted January 7, 2003 Wh00t,You say we are susceptible to extinction and you are right. I myself have thought about this many times. I even brought it up on this forum. The Diaspora will disappear regardless, especially in the Western countries. The only way the Armenian nation will exist 100 years from now (which is not a long time) is if Armenia remains a populated, developed country. But considering the recent mass exodus (which probably hasn't even stopped), do you guys really think there will be such a thing as an Armenian a century from now? I'm really curious to know your opinions. [ January 07, 2003, 05:51 PM: Message edited by: dl ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khodja Posted January 7, 2003 Report Share Posted January 7, 2003 It all comes down to two litle words "Amot e." Two little words that will lead to our extinction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJ Posted January 8, 2003 Report Share Posted January 8, 2003 quote:Originally posted by wh00t:We are what, 7 million in the world? What gives us the right to pick and choose who among us are the most desirable to keep? Does this mean we accept an ever-diminishing population as long as those that are left are "true Armenians"? How can we complain about assimilation and simultaneously continue this type of behavior?Wh00t, While I generally am sympathetic and think that this idea of "true Armenian" is a corrupt one, I would like to raise a question about our numbers. Why do you (or anyone else) consider that having more Armenians around the world is better than having less? Is having more going to increase Armenian Army, improve Armenian Economy, boost Armenian Culture? What is the benefit of the more rather than the less, as long as the critical mass is sustained? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wh00t Posted January 8, 2003 Author Report Share Posted January 8, 2003 MJ, How can you know/determine the critical mass for Armenian vitality? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJ Posted January 8, 2003 Report Share Posted January 8, 2003 Wh00t, My answer would be somewhat indirect. From what I guesstimate, the Republic of Armenia is not able to support population infrastructures for people in excess of 3 million, if we are talking about dignified lifestyle. One can pretend that we can modernize Armenia so much that we can increase this number substantially. Pretending is good, but reality is a different thing. Like DL has claimed above, I also believe that Diaspora, at least as we know it, has a lifespan of about 100 years. Additionally, it is evident that only a very small percentage of it is associating its identity with Armenia. The majority of Diaspora wants to have nothing to do with Armenia or Armenian issues. Of those who [indirectly] have/want to do something with the Armenian issues, the majority is more interested with the issues surrounding Turkey rather than Armenia. In fact, I consider them to be not an Armenian Diaspora but a Turkish one (of Armenian ethnicity) - they are spiritually and otherwise connected more with Turkey than with Armenia. As unpleasant as this is to hear, this is a reality. It is very unlikely that their children would be any better than them as far as the future of Armenia is concerned – they would be worse, though I do accept the possibility of some exceptions. Whatever positive we accomplish in terms of what you proclaim to be our "Cause" (this is yet something to be defined), is accomplished by a very small number of Diaspora Armenians - at least on the relative scale. So, the numbers are not necessarily indicative of purpose and aspirations. In the view of all this, within the perimeters of our 'needs,' under rational self-organization, our ‘goals’ can be achieved by some 5 million Armenians worldwide (maybe this is still an exaggeration). So, for the foreseeable future, this is what I would consider critical mass. With all this said, I am not suggesting to discount those who claim ownership of Armenia – regardless if they “fit into the profile” or not. However, we have to be aware that there are two types of Armenians - merely ethnic Armenians (why would one care about them?) and Armenians who claim ownership of Armenia. I think it is important to be able to make a distinction between them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vava Posted January 8, 2003 Report Share Posted January 8, 2003 quote:Originally posted by MJ:Why do you (or anyone else) consider that having more Armenians around the world is better than having less? Is having more going to increase Armenian Army, improve Armenian Economy, boost Armenian Culture? What is the benefit of the more rather than the less, as long as the critical mass is sustained?Interesting question. I would presume that in a scenario where world populations are increasing almost exponentially, a particular group could lose significance if their numbers dwindle. Naturally, as you say, the 'critical mass' will still ensure another generation to come - for a while, but in the long term that makes for a very fragile existance. Is that what we should be striving for? quote:Originally posted by dl:The Diaspora will disappear regardless, especially in the Western countries. The only way the Armenian nation will exist 100 years from now (which is not a long time) is if Armenia remains a populated, developed country. Not if we in the diaspora don't change our ways and adopt more pro-active attitudes. I agree with wHoot, we should be more inclusive as a culture. Why is it always Armenians being assimilated into other cultures? Why shouldn't we assimilate (at least partially) the otars that we are marrying? Why can't we create structures in our Diaspora that will allow us to teach others (and our childeren) our language/culture/customs, like other Diasporan peoples? I think we are beginning to - but we are also teaching them 'old world' attitudes, or our 'Armenian Stubornness'. Our Diaspora SHOULDN'T disappear. As a matter of fact it should give fruit to a renewed, revitalised Armenian culture that will ensure our survival as a people by: - encouraging the economic development of the ROA- becoming an integral, vital part of our host communities- teaching our language, history, art, music etc. to future generations Maybe I'm an optimist - or perhaps it's all a pipe dream. You tell me. [ January 07, 2003, 09:32 PM: Message edited by: vava ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vava Posted January 8, 2003 Report Share Posted January 8, 2003 quote:Originally posted by MJ:With all this said, I am not suggesting to discount those who claim ownership of Armenia – regardless if they “fit into the profile” or not. However, we have to be aware that there are two types of Armenians - merely ethnic Armenians (why would one care about them?) and Armenians who claim ownership of Armenia. I think it is important to be able to make a distinction between them.MJ, I almost entirely agree with your post, however I feel that with a concerted effort and some very good PR, you could convert many of those who are 'merely ethnic' Armenians (that we shouldn't care about) into a constructive political and economic force, to the benefit of the ROA. BTW, I'm not saying it would be easy, nor immediate, (after all we have 100 years ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJ Posted January 8, 2003 Report Share Posted January 8, 2003 Vava, I think such problems are not solved with PR. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vava Posted January 8, 2003 Report Share Posted January 8, 2003 MJ, Perphaps you are right - but effective marketing, and PR can go a long way to create a sense of belonging & allegence. New Diasporan Armenians have many challenges: integrating to their new communities, communicating in new languages, establishing/adapting their careers, raising children in new environments, etc. Established Diasporan Armenians have another set of challenges - like whoot, for example - acceptance in the Armenian community, language issues, etc. Diasporan structures (community centers, churches, schools etc.) must understand, and address these challenges, and in doing so, foster a renewed sense of community & belonging. But the message has to get out - people have to know Armenian community is ready to welcome them. Maybe new diasporan structures must be created... However, before any of this can occur, attitudes have to change, and they must change from within. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight Bark Posted January 8, 2003 Report Share Posted January 8, 2003 quote:Originally posted by wh00t:Why is it that the most successful Armenians are the ones that have rejected their Armenian heritage? Cher wants nothing to do with us. Ditto Garry Kasparov. I would have thought the same of Andre Agassi had he not briefly acknowledged his heritage on "The Armenian-Americans". Furthermore, why is it that the biggest champions of the Armenian cause are those who rejected their Armenian heritage in the past? Atom Egoyan wanted nothing more than to distance himself from being Armenian when he was a teenager growing up in Vancouver, and now has done immeasurable good for Armenian awareness. I know nothing of Kirk Kirkorian being a card-carrying AYF member during his youth, but now the billionaire is pumping millions of dollars into the economy of the ROA. Where I live, in order to be seen as a "true Armenian", you must fulfill the following criteria: 1. Speak fluent Armenian. The level of fluency in Armenian must be equal to, if not greater than, the level of fluency in the official languages of the country.2. 95% of friends must be Armenian. 100% is preferable.3. Do not challenge the fundamentals of Armenian culture and church. I do not meet these standards. I have greater devotion to the Cause than most in the area but am rejected nonetheless. Those on this Forum with the best ideas are those who have little or nothing to do with the community at large. Armenians need to stick together to ensure the survival of the nation, but this can be done without sheltering ourselves from the rest of society. Nor must this be achieved by shunning those who do not fit into the idealistic image of an Armenian: half-Armenians, Armenians who do not speak perfect Armenian, etc. It is no wonder that the disenchanted are moving on to achieve great things.Dear wh00t,What you say resonates with many Armenians. However, I think lamenting on the behavior of the "traditionalist" Armenians is akin to lamenting the foolishness of the fools, the zealotry of the fanatics, or the old age and failing health of our parents. The fools are almost never converted to wisdom; they are bypassed. Parents are not changed or discarded; they are loved; and politely ignored when necessary. How is our lamentation on the lack of vision of the "old guard" any better than the "amot e" that we are all sick of? We are saying our version of "amot e", aren't we? It seems we still carry, in our cultural genetic code, the propensity to prefer "negative" solutions to problems. Similarly, the exclusivist attitudes displayed in this forum are woven from the same thread as the attitudes in the "ghetto" that they are supposedly protesting. I think the key to progress is creating new venues for expressing the will of the "New Armenians", and not the condemnation or destruction of the "Old Armenian" way. The arrow of time will take care of the rest. "New Armenians" feel "rejected from the community" because they have failed to form their own sense of community. In my haste I can point out two reasons for this: 1. The "New Armenian" is still mostly raised by the "Old Armenian", and carries the cultural genetic code of being a lousy leader. We still are not good leaders. By the time an Armenian is born into a family that encourages leadership, he is already removed several generations from the "Old Armenian"; too late. He is not even a "New Armenian". He is in fact not an Armenian at all. One or more of his grandparents are. 2. The answer to the question "What is the point of keeping the Armenian identity" has not been formulated well. Keeping and nurturing an Armenian identity in an "alien" society takes a significant amount of precious resources from an individual. Joe Schmoe next door doesn't have that burden while you do. For example, I am taking the time to gather my thoughts and type this post, while my competitor Mr. Schmoe does not. Without a compelling justification (i.e. a good answer to the above question), a modern "New Armenian" will be loth to do anything for the propagation of the Armenian identity. The first reason will be eliminated when the question in the second reason is satisfactorily answered. So I guess there is only one reason. By the way, this being discussed under the general category of "Famous Armenians" (why?) compels me to declare that anyone who disagrees with me or criticizes my views is either a charlatan or an ignorant fool, and is surely against human rights, democracy and all the good stuff we all love and cherish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
564312 Posted January 8, 2003 Report Share Posted January 8, 2003 haha. Vava Bravo! 100% true Not only millionaires and celebrities that deny their Armenianness but regular Armenians too, Armenians changing their store names to sound Italian or Jewish or whatever, Armenians denying that they are Armenians even on the street. Is it that they are fed up with Armenians that much? I remember Cher went to Armenia after the earthquake. Maybe she is not acknowledging Armenians on purpose after her demeanor change from all the plastic surgeries. regarding Atom Egoyan he is an opportunist tick that irritates me, just like he created a stir when he made that exotica film now he has used Armenians to make more money. That other movie he made before called a "calendar" About Armenian Churches what a joke! I have named that movie “IRAN ASA MORE MONEY CHEM UZUM” you will get it if you watched the movie. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harut Posted January 8, 2003 Report Share Posted January 8, 2003 my thoughts might be repetition of others already posted, but i want to make quick comments. 1. "assimilated" armenians are more succesful because they don't spend half of their time/resources/effort on "hayapahpanutyun" in the diasporian communities, as do those "non-assimilates". 2. i would guess that those, who alienate themselves from the communities, eagerly wait for a moment and a little reason to alienate themselves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khodja Posted January 8, 2003 Report Share Posted January 8, 2003 MJ, I understand your reasoning as to why Armenians will become less tied to the community as they enter the corporate world. However, please explain from your viewpoint why so many prominent Armenians either barely acknowledge that they are Armenian or part Armenian, such as Cher or Agassi, or vehemently deny the truth such as Michael Arlen and Gregory Peck? I know of this phenomenon in my own family members, some of whom are only first generation in America. I am not aware of this denial among any other nationality. Even part Italians, Greeks, Jews, Hispanics whom I know proudly express their heritage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nairi Posted January 8, 2003 Report Share Posted January 8, 2003 quote:Originally posted by MJ:Obviously the Diasporan structures are fading away, and they are doomed to extinction. Now I do have an opinion MJ, I simply don't see where you gather your information. Also, why the emphasis on diasporan extinction? If Armenians cannot survive in diaspora, I don't see how they can survive in the homeland. After all, isn't the homeland as Sovietized as Glendalians are Americanized? What guarantees one's survival more than the other's? My view is that if you can't survive in diaspora, there is little to no chance you can survive in your homeland either. quote:Originally posted by Harut:"assimilated" armenians are more succesful because they don't spend half of their time/resources/effort on "hayapahpanutyun" in the diasporian communities, as do those "non-assimilates".Again, I don't see where you people gather your information. The most prominent/succesful Armenians in Holland not only acknowledge the fact that they are Armenian, they are also very active in Armenian affairs, culture etc. As for Agassi: look at Nalbandian, Mikaelian, and Sargsian. Which one of those is denying their Armenian heritage? Or how about System of a Down, Apex Theory, and Djivan Gasparian? Have they ever denied their Armenian heritage? Shall I go on, or can you fill in the endless list yourselves? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wh00t Posted January 8, 2003 Author Report Share Posted January 8, 2003 The handling of System of a Down is just another example of how intolerent Armenian institutions are towards those who do not fit into the "true Armenian" profile. As far as I know, this band has single-handedly increased worldwide Genocide awareness more than any other group or initiative to date. (The only other mechanism which may compare were the attacks on Turkish diplomats, but I can't comment on them since I was not yet born when the bulk of the murders were executed). Nearly every concert they play (and they play many) includes the song P.L.U.C.K., which, as they state each time before performing the track, is decicated to the memory of the Armenian victims of 1915. Their second multi-million-selling album included a Der Voghormya at end. Armenian flags were waved around in the background for the video of one of 2001's most popular songs. Only after the group's sophomore effort reached #1 on North American charts, after having several #1 hit singles, after garnering a Grammy nomination (they got another this year by the way), and even after holding an entire benefit concert for the Armenian cause ($25,000 in proceeds) did (some!) Armenian institutions begin to acknowledge their presence! What kind of eshegutyun is this? Is it so important that the band members are not practicing Christians and that they play rock music as opposed to Sayat Nova covers? How do we justify this behavior? [ January 08, 2003, 03:32 PM: Message edited by: wh00t ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khodja Posted January 8, 2003 Report Share Posted January 8, 2003 It is all part of the "Holier than Thou" mentality of so many Armenians. Wearing their Christianity on their sleeves like a badge of honor. Treating Jews like crap back in the homeland. All of this has come back to haunt us. You would think that reform is begging. But the dans-kloochs who run things won't stoop down to accept System of a Down. The LA cops view Armenians as criminals, yet our community leaders claim that we are as pure as the driven snow. Yet we are social moralists, while so many young Armenian women are acting as prostitutes to fat old Turkish and Arab men from Istambul to Qatar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harut Posted January 8, 2003 Report Share Posted January 8, 2003 quote:Originally posted by nairi:As for Agassi: look at Nalbandian, Mikaelian, and Sargsian. Which one of those is denying their Armenian heritage? Or how about System of a Down, Apex Theory, and Djivan Gasparian? Have they ever denied their Armenian heritage? Shall I go on, or can you fill in the endless list yourselves?hahaha, that would have been quite funny. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harut Posted January 8, 2003 Report Share Posted January 8, 2003 quote:Originally posted by nairi:] My view is that if you can't survive in diaspora, there is little to no chance you can survive in your homeland either.and my view is that there is NO such thing as "surviving in your homeland", unless we are talking about physical survival. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nairi Posted January 8, 2003 Report Share Posted January 8, 2003 Harut, Sargsian does not live/train in Armenia as far as I'm concerned, and Djivan is more active outside of his homeland than inside. Ok, maybe they were not the best examples, but you get the point. Wh00t, the only people who do not accept SOAD are some conservative people (not only Armenians). However, all Armenian organizations that defend the Armenian Genocide, including ANCA and AAA, strongly support SOAD regardless of their taste for their music or looks. As far as our institutions: most, if not all, other countries, have a WIDE range of institutions. If you feel the need for an institution/club/cultural center etc. that promotes or supports your ideology, try and find people with the same idea and start one. I'm sure you can find enough like-minded people in large Armenian communities (not sure about Montreal, but surely in Glendale or LA area). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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