Armenian Origins?

[hyebruin]

This is for anyone who has studied ancient armenian history... Is it true that we are of Aryan origin? and that the original Armenians were blond haired and blue eyed? I remember reading somewhere that there was an ancestral race that gave birth to the armenian race...forgot the name? (that's my goal after I'm done with school... Armenian History!)

[Azat]

HyeBruin, MJ is the person to ask. He knows history well.

[joseph]

Azat , why MJ ? I think Hagrag is expert on origins of Armenians he is 100% sure that we are Mongolians:

[vava]

My (very) rudimentary understanding is that Aryan peoples aren't blond haired and blue eyed at all. This is a misconception.

 

The term Aryan was used to describe the inhabitants of the plateau in the caucausus mountains - some of which could claim armenian lineage. But I've never studied the subject, so please don't rely too much on me

 

Interesting question though 'Bruin, and I'd like to know more...

 

[ February 10, 2003, 11:07 AM: Message edited by: vava ]

[khodja]

Hovsep,

 

I NEVER stated that we ARE Mongolians, just that we are a MIXED people. There are Armenians who look like they came right out of Stockholm, like my paternal grandmother, others like my maternal uncle who looked very Asian and my mother who looked very Semitic. It is well documented that there are strains of French, Jew, Assyrian, Scandinavian in the Armenians.

[Sasun]

Hyebruin jan, did you check this website? Armenian Highland

 

There is some material on the ancient Armenian history. I heard the story that our ancestors had blue eyes, red hair and eagle-noses Looks like blue eyes and red hair have been replaced by 'kakh por' (big belly) in contemporary Armenians In Armenia, most rich people and influential politicians must have these, it is like a token of social status, they are otherwise known 'puzati'.

 

[ February 10, 2003, 01:54 PM: Message edited by: Sasun ]

[Armine]

I am not a expert on the field yet, but based on my studies so far there is no real answer, there are just various interpretations out there that each individual has to look at each view and draw their own conclusion. It is a very extensive topic and there is no definate answer. I know that is not help, but that is what I have discovered in my study. Even the great Richard Hovannissian does not give a concrete answer, he only presents people with the interpretions (besides the ones aforementioned in prior posts there is also a belief that we originated during the great persian empire and where known as the Armen's; there are many more interpretations)and let them deside. I guess it's all based on point of view and how much knowledge one has about the region of ancient Armenia, its surrounding neighboors, and study the era which we are said to have originated in.

 

FYI. I am a undergrad student in History and am planning on mastering (striveing for a PHD)in Armenian Hisotory once and if I get accepted to grad school.

 

Armine

[koko]

ok. Those armenians who are mixed, are today not armenians.

They are swedes, english,indian, americans, french to name a few of them wich armenians have mixed ages ago...

 

The aryans was blond or "tsoreni goyn". Thats why Hitler meant by german race, and that the aryan race was to be preserved.

 

I dont know my brother was blond when he was a little boy. many armenians , in Anatolia and Armenia, armenians children are born ligther/blonder...

[khodja]

Koko,

 

What are you stating that EVEN Armenians who were mixed ages ago are not Armenian? ARE YOU ABSOLUTELY WACKO? If you pursue this line of reasoning, given the advanced state of DNA genetic science, you would be able to prove that a large percentage of Armenians should follow their ODAR genes and go back to France, Sweden, China, India, Israel, etc. Are you sure that you are not an enemy of Armenia? The Turks have assimilated so many into their nation, and you want to cast people out. The danz-kloochs among us do not accept the likes of Cher (1/2 Armenian with French/Swedish/Cherokee), Peter Gabel (1/4 Armenian, 1/4 Irish, 1/2 Jewish), Gregory Peck (1/4 Armenian, 3/4 Irish/English) as Armenians. Now you want to go back 20 centuries and cast more people out?

[Varduhi]

HYEBRUIN.

ITS TRUE and if you need more info i can P.M you.

 

[hyebruin]

What's really interesting and fascinating to me is why if armenians are some sort of Aryan and persians for sure are aryan=iranian...then how come our phenotype (features) do not resembele that of an "original aryan"??? how much mixing and with who? it's all just fascinating to me!

[Harut]

i think that armenians were (that is some 2500 years ago) more towards "lighter" side than now because most of the mixings were with people of "darker" side.

BUT i don't believe that at that time most had blond hair blue eyes.

 

those claims are just "kak sritin mkhitaranq".

[khodja]

Varduhi,

 

Get a copy of the video, "Enemy of the People" produced through the AGBU. At the end of the documentary is a cross section of the faces of Armenians who survived Stalin's purges. Look closely at these faces and then tell me that a good number don't look quasi-Asiatic. The Turks came and mixed with the Anatolian and Balkan peoples, usually by force, and are today a mixed people. I am sure some Armenian women were impregnated by Asiatic conquerers by force, but what is forgotten is that Cilician Armenia was allied with the Mongols and that numerous Mongol nobles and soldiers voluntarily converted to Armenia Christianity and assimilated into the Armenian community. Also the Manikonian clan is descended from two Chinese nobles. So you can laugh all you want, but there is truth to what I have stated.

[Artaxias]

Armenians are Aryan.

Those are Armenians that have a really dark complexion are mixed Armenians. O course everyone in the world these days is mixed but the fact still remains.

Despite popular belief still the majority of Armenians now are white.

Thousands years of conquests by savages did not change the Armenian racial makeup.

[sen_Vahan]

"ARE YOU ABSOLUTELY WACKO? If you pursue this line of reasoning, given the advanced state of DNA genetic science, you would be able to prove that a large percentage of Armenians should follow their ODAR genes and go back to France, Sweden, China, India, Israel, etc. "

 

 

Gnaaaaaaaz kash@, hesa Episkoposyanin eli shur kta mer Hakarak@

[Arpa]

BTW, Azat, it is "ayrats srti kak mkhitaranq"!

This subject is as old as Haik himself, and it is as confused.

Yes, CONFUSED.

If Armenians would only learn to be what they ARE and BE WHAT THEY ARE, perhaps then we will BE. At this rate we are in danger of NOT BEING.WE are growing smaller. Can I say that? Is that an oxymoron, a contradiction in terms? For centuries we have tried to be something other than what destiny has meant us to be, for centuries we have been wannabe this and wannabe that, and for centuries we have been slapped in the face, been told "no you are not Greek, Roman, Byzantian, MOngolian, Jew or some other kind of Gentile. We or someone has labeled us "Armenian/Hay". Only we can define what that is. We are still looking to others to tell us what an Armenian is. I sit not time we tell the world what and who an Armenian is? An Armenian is an Armenian and we are the only people known as such, there are no other people known as Armenians. How about, for once and for all accept this fact and act accordingly. Khoja?Hagarag can got to Tel Aviv, they'll love him there, they may even crown him King, he may be King David incarnate, i.e. the long overdue Messiah!!!

 

It may be worthwhile the following that I posted an couple of months ago.

Note. In case it is illegible got the subject topic CULTURE and look for "Aryan Aryun"

 

 

http://armenians.com/forum/index.php?act=S...t=0entry34657

[edward demian]

There are many myths about Armenian Origins.

What is true is that the Hittites, which were a confederation of Kingdoms and people, but of Indo European Origin were conquered by a Light skinned tribe, probably Kelts about 1250BC. This tribe was called Armens but called Phyrigian by the Greeks. These Armens lorded over the general population for about 600 yars, by which time they were absorbed in to the larger genepool. These conquerors seemed to be more predominant around lake van and in severtal other population centers, where there was a larger preponderence of red haired, blue eyed Armenians than most.

Don't forget, that for 1200 years of Muslim domination, we and the other Christian minorities paid all the taxes. Muslims were tax exempt due to their military responsibility. When you fell behind, the tax collector came to your house and took a cow, some sheep maybie a child. They prefferred Light skinned children because they fetched a better price on the slave market. So by process of natural selection, the race became darker with the ages. As far as the Aryan thing. Aryans are a group of people that speak a group of related languages. The Aryan Determination has gotten a bum rap due to the Hitler thing. So it is not used any more in polite educated society. Indo european, Caucasian, Proto Indoeuropean are now the buzz words. Armenian seems to have a very rich vocabulary. As rich as the English language. A third of the words Ethymiologically seem to be of Aryan Origin, A third is of Persian Origin which is itself a different branch of the Aryan tree and the last third is probably of Hitite Origin but we don't know because Turkey does not want much Armenian Origins research to happen on their watch. I would like to say that the Kurds claim to have a Hitite Origin too. Others too.

[jackobolo]

No offense, but this below reads like Armenology left over with the old Cold War Stalinist/Diakonivist basturma meat.

 

"What is true is that the Hittites, which were a confederation of Kingdoms and people, but of Indo European Origin were conquered by a Light skinned tribe, probably Kelts about 1250BC. This tribe was called Armens but called Phyrigian by the Greeks. These Armens lorded over the general population for about 600 yars, by which time they were absorbed in to the larger genepool."

 

No, No, NO. What needs to be done is for us to UPDATE our knowledge with new evidence.

 

1. The "Pyrigian's" did not migrate eastward, and there is absolutely no evidence to suggest that they ever did.

 

2. The Armenians never did migrate in from the west, and there is absolutely no evidence that they did.

 

3. There is no real evidence that disconnects Armenians from Urartuans. Most evidence points to the fact that the Armenians, the core of the Hittites, etc, were of Armenian stock. Therefore, whether our NATO-biased anti-Armenianites like it or not, Armenians are proving to be "natives," as far as prehistory states it so.

[hjk]

first, the Hurris lived in Armenia. Eventually the Hurri tribes combined to form the Hurrians. Later on, the Hurrians established the state of Mitanni. When the Mitanni nation fell, the Urartu, whose language and religion was similar to the Hurrian, established the Urartu nation 6000 years ago. The Urartu are of the Hurrian race and absorbed the Hurrians in their culture. When the nation of Urartu collapsed, the Armenians migrated to modern-day Armenia. They absorbed the urartu in their culture. Scientists do not know where the migrators came from. They had flaming red hair (smetimes blonde) and blue eyes. they had the same eye shape as the Urartu and Hurrians. If anyone's intersted, here rae a few fun facts about the Urartu and Hurrians:

the Urartu called themselves "Biaini". Note that we Armenians now have the girl name "Biana". "Urartu" was what the Assyrians called thembecause they worshipped the famous mountain in Armenia. Then the ancient Hebrews injected the "ah" sound into the word "Urartu" to obtain the word "Ararat", which is the orogin of the word "Mount Ararat". Urartu and Hurrian do not fit into any language family. They are very similar to Magyazar, the Hungarian language. In fact, the Hungarians claim to come from the "Subar" (not the car "Subaru"), which are an ancient people. the Subar claim to have come ffrom aplace in modern-day Armenia. The word "choban", among many other words shared by the languages, means "shepherd" in both Hungarian, Hurrian, Urartean, and Armenian. One Hurrian invention was the ligh spoked-wheel chariot. The Hurrians' highest god was the weather-god. he drove two bulls named "Seri" and "Huri", meaning "day" and "night". In Armenian, "hurri" has a differnet meaning; it means "little fire". Even though "hurri" means different things in both languages, consider that fire can be an act of nature, and the ancient Hurrians attributed it to their weather-god, who drove the two bulls, one of them being named "Hurri". Note the names of the two bulls, "Hurri" and "Seri", and note the fact that we have the girl names "Serine" and "Hurik". In the Hurrian and Urartu languages, the word "yuri" means "lord". Recall that we have a man's name "Yuri" or "Yurik". Armenians are not the only ones who have Hurrian ancestors. Finns, Hungarians, Kurds, and Georgians,. among many also have Hurrian ancesters. In fact, the Svaneti of georgia are descendants of and have beliefs na dculture (including religion) much like that of the Hurrians. however, the Svaneti are not exclusively Hurrian in terms of ancesrty, but rather significantly Georgian. The Hurrians were assmilated into many ethnic groups. The only group of people who look, act, and come from the Hurrians are the Hayasha of Mount Ararat. Note the word 'Hay" in "Hayasha". they look much like modern-day Armenians. Also, the Hurrians first appeared in Mount Ararat, but later migrated and expended to other parts of the world. So, Armenia was their homeland. The Urartu,unlike the Hurrians, generated only the Armenians. Remember that when I talk about the Hurrians and Urartu, don't react negatively because I am not talking about another people, I am talking about us. The reason that many modern-day Armenians look Middle Eastern is beacuse Armenians were under attack throughout most of their history by Muslims. during these times of war and attack, Arabs and Turks took in some Armenian women as their wives. This small number of attacks caused us to have dark hair and eyes. This does not mean that we have many Muslim ancestors. It is only the fact that the genes for dark hair and eyes are dominant over light hair and eyes. Although my hair is now brown, it is bright red in all my childhood photos. My little sister was born with white-blonde hair, which turned bright orange, then bright red. Later on, i became almost all brown, but a few years ago, it started turning blonde again. now the top two-thirds of every hair is brown and the bottom third is blonde. She probably got it from my mother, who was a white-blonde in early childhood and a golden-blonde later on. The whole red hair thing might be insignificant, but i is a physical resemblance to the migrators that came after the Urartu. Just for the record, i don't care about having red hair, it is simply a reminder to us of our ancestor's physical appearance. By the way, in cas you got the wrong impression of me, I am not the type of person who cares about the racial classification of our ethnic group. Remember, race is diffrent from ethnicity. Ethnicity is simply ancestral nationality, while race is ancestral appearance. Also, the Urartu civilization government headquaters were around Lake Van, which provviedes the word root for the word 'lake Sevan".

[gamavor]

Armenians are authohtonos native population of what is called the Armenian plateau. Never migrated, never concurred foreign lands not because they were peaceful but simply they were there before anybody else. However, I do believe that there is some truth in the works of Strabo with regard to the tribes of Armens (Armins).

 

This is from Hye Etch :

 

"Contemporary scholarship suggests that the Armenians are descendants of various indigenous people who meld (10th through 7th century BC) with the Urarteans (Ararateans); while classical historians and geographers cite the tradition that the Armenians migrated into their homeland from Thrace and Phrygia (Herodotus, Strabo), or even Thessaly (Strabo). These views are not necessarily contradictory, since present-day Armenians are undoubtedly an amalgam of several peoples, autochthonous (Hayasa-Azzi, Nairi, Hurrians, etc.) and immigrant, who emerged as one linguistic family around 600 BC."

 

BTW has anybody studied the works of Strabo and Herodotus with regard to Armeno-Phrygians?

[America-Hye]

These traditional theories are based on history, not science. DNA analysis is increasingly proving these theories wrong.

[KnightOfArmenia]

Races don't have specific DNA. Slanted eyes, body hair, skin tone; all of these come from a specific set of genes (maybe even one or two), not from the entire DNA. And since we are not yet sure which genes exactly cover this, to blindly say "DNA disproves blah blah" shows ignorance, America-Hye.

 

Oh, and Armenians are a mix, but all of the same stock. Before they were all united as a single people, the Armenians were very divided (think Greece in the ancient days; they were physically different, and each city-state was a country unto itself. The Urartians, as is being shown now, were just the largest of these tribes, and eventually were able to successfully conquer the rest; after several hundred years of unity, when the Urartians collapsed, the various tribes remained united (in culture; the strong individualism of the various tribes has remained, although most of the differences have vanished through intermarriage; some aspects still remained, like the tall Zeitountsis and Sasuntsis, or the light-eyed girls of Kars) and became Armenians, though still under different Nakharars.

 

Modern evidence is disproving the old theory that everyone came from Greece, since this is based on Greek reports that always claimed that they were the basis of the world. Now there is more proof that peoples living in the Caucasus moved west, and several centuries later moved back east.

 

Have you ever read the Greek reason of why we are called Armenians? They say because we are of the stock of Arminius of Thessaly, and are simply "wayward sons."

[America-Hye]

KOA,

 

You are misrepresenting the level of technical sophistication that DNA analysis has reached over the last few years. Yes, only a few genes determine outward appearance and findings have shown that an African tribe can be closer genetically to a Norse village than to the adjoining tribe. However, analysis of these genes can show from whence a select group has come, over the space of history. Yepiskoposyan's studies were quickly supressed by the ROA goverment. It is not politically feasible to discuss some of the findings given the present geo-political situation. Nation-building seems to be more critical than facing the truth. So the ROA government is guilty for factual manipulation, though they are no match for the Turkish government in this regard. The Turks make history that is patently untrue.

[KnightOfArmenia]

Actually, I'm not; the Human Genome Project is one of my passions. But the most they have been able to do is track the general migration of humanity; each migration is accurate to within 50,000 years. So out of Africa, to the Middle East, to the Caucasus and Asia and Europe, over the Bering Strait into America, etc. However, the mapped genome has not been studied and understood enough yet to be able to determine the migrations routes that have occurred in the past 5,000-7,000 years, which is the period in question. That is why history is the important factor here, not science; we can carbon-date things to see about how old they are, but we need history to know who built those items.

[America-Hye]

I do not have the time today to research the numerous studies of mitochondrial and y-chromosome DNA covering the period of the last 5,000-7,000 years, some of which discuss the Armenians. I will post them here when I have the time.