Arturian Posted February 7, 2002 Report Share Posted February 7, 2002 quote:Originally posted by LISA:Only an very INSECURE worthles woman with NO SELFESTEEM and NO PRIDE will stay with a man that has cheated on her!!!Opposite... only powerful woman, who puts her children and their happiness above her life will stay with the man who cheats. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hasmiek Posted February 7, 2002 Report Share Posted February 7, 2002 quote: Opposite... only powerful woman, who puts her children and their happiness above her life will stay with the man who cheats. Artur, sorry but you're being naive again...don't you think the unhappiness that the man is causing on the family will reflect on the children?And what if the man beats her?Some wives can maybe put up with it but children can get severe emotional damage by seeing their parents fight like that... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arturian Posted February 7, 2002 Report Share Posted February 7, 2002 We discussed this about mounth ago. Kids are very sensetive to the problems between husband and wife. Divorce can seriously damage kids'. Divorce should not be an option. As i agreed previously in this forum, the case of man beating his wife is of the lowest thing a man can do. And you can't call a man being one if he raises his hand over his wife. In this case the divorce might be understandable sollution to the problem, especially if kids get to see that... so, i do agree. yes... [ February 07, 2002: Message edited by: ARTURian ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted February 7, 2002 Report Share Posted February 7, 2002 quote:Originally posted by ARTURian: hasmiek, what disrespectful i said against anybody? it is groundless for you to say that."I think that you are extremely stupid, know very little, perhaps are evil, your lifestyle (and nearly everything about you)certainly disgusts me - and BTW I will explain why in detail, perhaps you should even be jailed or stoned to death for your behaviors" - etc etc. I imagine that even the clothes you wear are dirty and disgusting (and I certainly would not want my kids to see you...or ever talk with you - you ideas are eveil and are liekley infectious). No, we are not ofended - why should we be? LOL quote:Originally posted by ARTURian: Thoth, and I don't see a difference between a prostitute and a girl who had relations before marriage. The only minor difference is that prostitute gets paid, but that's not significant "difference...not significant" - Really now? What punishment do you suggest? (Death them all - is this not called for in the Bible?)Well - Mr. not yet in the 20th century....most see it quite a bit differently. Again, however, I am interested in the difference between the judgement of/upon males and females on this matter... quote:Originally posted by ARTURian: Thoth, mankind moved? Are you sure? There can't be a move. These are morals, and they were established from the first day of existence of man. They don't change.Well if you say "no" to this - then what are you complaining about? Then we would be as we always have been. I think that we are clearly evolving (as we always have been) - only at a faster rate (socially and otherwise). While certain moral precipts still have meaning and perhaps shall always - some no longer apply (very well) - and certainly must be modified as we change. I refer mostly to the specific injunctions and the like. I mean - you may spout them off all day long - but if nobody is listening can you really still claim that they hold sway? quote:Originally posted by ARTURian: Man, i am nobody to judge your wife or you. It is your problem. But in my case i will be sleeping without thoughts that a mother of my children was used by some blacks. No offence...You are judging - by every post you are passing a judgement (uninformed & rather silly). And you are correct - you are "nobody" to be judging...(thus I am not offended - just a little amused, but also concerned for you). BTW - what difference is it if someone has sex with an African/black (etc) person? And you use the word "used" - is this strictly how you view sexual relations? And even if so - how are you to know it wasn't the other way around? LOL quote:Originally posted by ARTURian: Man, you are so different. Previously you said you are very much moral guy. Bro, under what religion you are very much moral. From christian point of view, sorry you are total opposite of almost every law.Perhaps I am less different (in practice) then you might think (though I am not a virgin as you are [nor was I before marraige - luckily - as I didn't get married till I was nearly in my 30's) and neither am I held rigid [in my beliefs/behaviors] by strict adherence to ancient doctrine). Have you studied up on Daoism yet? Not that I expect you to - nor would I expect you to understand it even if you did read it. (I can't even claim [complete/signoficant] understanding. Among its central precipts is the concept of keeping ones mind open....and another thing - morals are not imposed - they are correct because the are the right thing (naturally) - for us as a group, for us individually, and for reality (the world/existance etc) as a whole. For instance - it is wrong/immoral to litter. (is it not?) - but where in the Bible would you know this? The same with using up our natural resources on the planet? In the Bible it basically says to exploit the world to the fullest - perhaps there is something missing - eh? (etc)So you say I am the opposite of every law? (LOL). Well I certainly disagree - however, in any event, I am very happy with my adherence to "natural" laws of behavior & such (versus artificially contrived) as well as being comfortable with my moral behaviors etc in general (from practical [as well as spiritual] standpoint). And I have a fundemental problem with rules that cannot be questioned. Again, your beleifs - IMO - actually take away what it is to be human - IMO...which is why I will always side with the snake in the garden...(That snake is THOTH BTW) quote:Originally posted by ARTURian: Hasmiek, there is one case, that a man can get married to a woman (according to religion and armenian traditions). And it is when a husband of a woman died and she had left with child or without. My far uncle married to this type of woman, her husband died in earthquake in 88.Do you need a rule to ascribe every behavior? Just what makes this situation so different then any other? And, even if you come up with some rational (as I know you will 7 what it will be), ask yourself is there really any difference? As long as they are in love and there is love and caring between them...etc. This is why our greatest love stories involve young couples defying such edicts...(basically they stink - and everyone know it - and its nice to say such - but when it comes to your particualr situation - well you always will want special treatment - eh? Is that how it is?) quote:Originally posted by ARTURian: hasmiek, naivity you refer to is only from your point of view. in the society i live people lived like that for thousands of years. All my brothers and elders had the same views, it is not what i came up with. So please define why am i naive.For one you fail to see how your "perfect world view" has been continually defied through the ages. It is only perfect in your naive mind - one who fails to see reality. Also - there have been gays, prostitutes, adulterers...etc etc etc for many thousands of years...I suggest (by your rekoning) this proves that these lifestyle choices have been equally verified (as perfectly acceptable, successful and doable etc) quote:Originally posted by ARTURian: Hagarag, Tigranness is not judging, he is explaining and defending his point of view.Which happens to be an extreme judgemental view. Somehow he declines to pass judgement on his own father who defied his reasoning...lucky for his sake eh? Just think - were it not for his father marying (& having sex) outside of his "race" he would not be here in the world with us (to pass on his extreme judgemental views) - some irony - eh? What we need to figure is if that is a good or a bad thing... quote:Originally posted by ARTURian: Note, neither me nor Tigranness said something like "it is wrong what you are doing, you will go to hell for that". No! We say, it is your choice to do what you want to do, but look at different angle and evaluate for yourself.OK - Question for you & Tigrannes - (In your opinions) Am I going to Hell? quote:Originally posted by ARTURian: Bless you all! Thanks - I consider myself blessed....by (favorable) circumstance if nothing else...apparently I must reflect the sunny side of the Dao... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khodja Posted February 7, 2002 Report Share Posted February 7, 2002 We see here the essence of the Armenian dilemma. Those socialized in the culture of the Netherlands, show-biz culture of the Hollywood Hills, or in British values, culture of Rio, etc. will see the world very differently than those socalized in the bosom of the Armenian Church in the ROA (which was and is still a primarily Sovietized society). This is the Gordian Knot of the Diaspora problem, the divergent mentality of the worldwide Diaspora. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henry Posted February 7, 2002 Report Share Posted February 7, 2002 Let me write this in a way that everyone can understand. It doesn't matter where u from, how you present yourself, what job you have and what background you have; but what really matters is where you stand as an individual in this world, who lives a clean life and respects those who don't praise evil. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted February 7, 2002 Report Share Posted February 7, 2002 OK Henry - this is your conclusion - and I'm not disagreeing with it per se...but what is it that you are really saying (can be interpreted a number of ways IMO) and what is the proof that you have for this contention (beyond the ARTURian - this is what I beleive thus it is true for all)? quote:Originally posted by henry:Let me write this in a way that everyone can understand. It doesn't matter where u from, how you present yourself, what job you have and what background you have; but what really matters is where you stand as an individual in this world, who lives a clean life and respects those who don't praise evil. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hasmiek Posted February 7, 2002 Report Share Posted February 7, 2002 no tigrannes I spit on nobody Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khodja Posted February 7, 2002 Report Share Posted February 7, 2002 Tigrannes III, My ancestors were martyred also, but I do not consider Hasmiek's personal behavior to be "spitting on my martyred Ancestors."  "Judge not that you not be judged." It is imperative that you get a better understanding of the essence of Jesus' belief and not the "hell fire and brimstone" approach of later church leaders. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LISA Posted February 7, 2002 Report Share Posted February 7, 2002 Granted, where kids are involved it throws another variable into the equation. That is a given and another discussion altoghter. IMO. I address you to respond,,if your woman cheats on you in wedlock, which correct me if i'm not mistaken, adultery is a *sin*, you would forgive her and stay??? (entertain the notion providing there are no kids involved) I realize much of this is subjective. I also realize that the lifestyles are different where you are from and where we are from. I apologize for previously coming accross abruptly. [ February 07, 2002: Message edited by: LISA ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LISA Posted February 7, 2002 Report Share Posted February 7, 2002 quote:Originally posted by henry:Let me write this in a way that everyone can understand. It doesn't matter where u from, how you present yourself, what job you have and what background you have; but what really matters is where you stand as an individual in this world, who lives a clean life and respects those who don't praise evil.Excellent! I perceive this as, "be true to yourself and no one can buy your pride or self respect." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LISA Posted February 7, 2002 Report Share Posted February 7, 2002 ps. that website is ofcourse subjective thoughts from you as to what *you* think (opinion) think makes an armenian woman. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henry Posted February 7, 2002 Report Share Posted February 7, 2002 I hope what I said painted a clear picture for everyone. It's a small world, everyone knows whats evil and what's not - there is no gender or race to be used for an excuse. If you like my response give me a HUG. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anahid Takouhi Posted February 7, 2002 Report Share Posted February 7, 2002 Take it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sip Posted February 7, 2002 Report Share Posted February 7, 2002 quote:Originally posted by henry:... everyone knows whats evil and what's not...No hug from me (yet)! Everyone will not agree on what's evil and what's not. Arthur for example says homosexuals are evil, women who have sex before marriage are evil, and Thoth is evil. He says that the Bible has all the answers and everyone should live by it.I say, pressuring people to live like me because I think I am perfect is evil. I don't think Bible has all the answers and I certainly would not stone a woman for having sex before marriage (or even for the funniest sin of all: adultery). I also don't think Thoth is evil and I find his thinking to be very logical and reasonable.So do you see the problem? We both "KNOW" what's evil and what's not but at the end of the day, we don't know $hit since we can't agree on anything. Which one of us is right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henry Posted February 7, 2002 Report Share Posted February 7, 2002 U want me to spell our what's evil? LOL.. emm okay let me put it this way - anything that causes physical pain, anything that's illegal, and immoral.P.S. Use ur judgement, don't ask me any more questions. I can't believe some people can't tell what is evil and what's not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sip Posted February 8, 2002 Report Share Posted February 8, 2002 quote:Originally posted by henry:U want me to spell our what's evil? LOL.. emm okay let me put it this way - P.S. Use ur judgement, don't ask me any more questions.OK once again, I am using my judgement, Arthur is using his judgement, and we both come up with completely different things. I am not asking you to tell me what's evil. I am trying to tell you that I don't think it's as simple as that. quote:Originally posted by henry: anything that causes physical pain, anything that's illegal, and immoral.I may slap my child on the wrist if he did something bad. Does that make me evil? I caused him and me physical pain. I take my child to get a polio vaccine. I caused him physical pain, am I evil?The law says I can't assult or kill anyone. There is a guy who was raping my mom. I pull him off and punch him. He falls, hits his head on a rock and dies. Am I evil? The law says I can't drive faster than 65 MPH. I have a dying person in my car that has to get to the hospital so I speed. Am I evil?I won't touch the moral thing since that is a whole another thread on it's own quote:Originally posted by henry:I can't believe some people can't tell what is evil and what's not.Have you heard of prisons? Most of the people there are like that (I know, I can't believe it either but it's a fact of life) NOTE: I am not asking those questions directly to you in the hope of an answer. There is NO good answer to those questions. They are just a way to get my point accross so don't worry (and they are not directed to anyone in specific)!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LISA Posted February 8, 2002 Report Share Posted February 8, 2002 Where are the questions? Most of what you stated anyone with common sense would be able to conclude, though some of it subjective where revenge and driving above the speed limit is concerned. A mother and father disciplining their child is not evil and likewise taking them for vaccine is not evil.  On the flip side, a father and mother *abusing* their child where their is no ground for such is evil. Hence the term *child abuse*.  I did not find anything to misconstrue. Hmmm, yeah, prisons are usually packed with evil people who are often given a chance to redeem themselves in society. Again obvious, unless someone innocent got thrown in their as a result of 'being in the wrong place at the wrong time.' Big ouch!  The law says you can't drive 65 mph. Obviously speeding is not immoral. Go for it but don't cry the blues if you get nailed with a ticket. *Irresponsible*. Drinking and driving. Again employ some common sense. Not evil but irresponsible. Should your irresponsibility cause you hurt an an innocent victim you will be dealt with just punishment.  Retribution of a raped family victim. There is something you will find many different opinions on. Did you guys see that movie "A time to Kill" with Samuel L.Jackson?Excellent Movie. Its based on just that.Retribution is not evil but driven by hate/hurt/pain. What I concluded from Henry's post is to esteem to be around good people with good values. [ February 07, 2002: Message edited by: LISA ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arturian Posted February 8, 2002 Report Share Posted February 8, 2002 Thoth, do you understand that with your offensive messages you make yourself look redicilous.  I will not do the same. Not type of my character. But what disterbed you and made you call everything you said? That according to christianity your views are immoral? Man, it is obvious for anyone who read bible.  Man, be serious. You have a wife, i guees kids as well. I will not reply to your offensive messeges, i am too old for these childish moves.  It is difficult even comment what you say because most of you said stated incorrectly and in offensive way. You ask if we think wether you'll go to hell. This type of question is not just incorrect but makes no sense to any christian. Why? Because only God judges who will go to hell and who will go to heaven, i am his slave and as Tigrannes is and nothing more. Thus, you might go to heaven, and we might be in hell. Only God knows and he sees what we are doing on what we have done.   God is Merciful, God is Powerfull, God is the Greatest. God bless you and your wife and your children!  Artur P.S. When you say evil, it reminded me of George Bush saying always "evil doers", not knowing what they do and which is evil and which is not.  [ February 07, 2002: Message edited by: ARTURian ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LISA Posted February 8, 2002 Report Share Posted February 8, 2002 Oh, you are *trying* to put words in my mouth. Who is being offensive. I simply and VERY POLITELY asked you to address a question. A question which asks for your opinion. You have alot of opinion on the matter. Well now I ask you *politely* to put the shoe on the other foot. See if it fits. Nothing I stated was 'offensive'. I was simply apologizing if you received them *abruptly* but they are NOT offensive. I am not an offensive person but I also employ the policy, "be true to yourself." Artur are you ducking my question? Please address!!! I am curious to your response. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LISA Posted February 8, 2002 Report Share Posted February 8, 2002 Artur,  Here is the question I addressed you with. Please note forum members that it is not offensive, does not contain profanity, and nowhere am I putting words in his mouth. However, I am asking for his opinion on a topic he has been *opinionated* about. The said post below in bold, Granted, where kids are involved it throws another variable into the equation. That is a given and another discussion altoghter. IMO. I address you to respond,,if your woman cheats on you in wedlock, which correct me if i'm not mistaken, adultery is a *sin*, you would forgive her and stay??? (entertain the notion providing there are no kids involved) I realize much of this is subjective. I also realize that the lifestyles are different where you are from and where we are from. I apologize for previously coming accross abruptly.  *Note* It is inconsequential whether you are married with kids right now as this is a hypothetical question. It is also intresting to note that you have strong oppinions on the matter but refute entertaining the situation in the 1st person, you, which further takes validity away from your thoughts on the matter. *I* gave an honest answer wherby I do not tolerate cheating. Thats just me. You responded with your opinion *on my feelings* but likewise I am now addressing you kindly. Can any of the other male forum members give me their opinion on the matter???? You perviously stated you find armenian women that stay with men that cheat powerful and such... Is it safe to conclude that you would forgive your wife and dismiss and move forward from the indecency??? (again providing there are no children invoved in the said occurence of adultery) I would much rather you address this than draw conclusions from your previous thoughts on the matter. Certainly to debate one must be able to more than just judge others. [ February 07, 2002: Message edited by: LISA ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arturian Posted February 8, 2002 Report Share Posted February 8, 2002 Lisa, sorry. I didn't read your previous post. I trully can't picture any woman in our surname cheating on their husbands. But nevertheless, i will answer your question. If a woman cheats, for the sake of family father should try not break the family as a whole. The forgiveness is out of question. You can't forgive this. But kids should not be growing without mother or father. Therefore they should try to stay within the family, even though it might be very difficult. That's my opinion. I regard the purpose of life is to give happier and better future for your kids than you've had. And when you make any kind of decisions you should first think of kids and only then about yourself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arturian Posted February 8, 2002 Report Share Posted February 8, 2002 Guys, wouldn't be better if enter Hyeforum chat Every 5 minutes there are answers ... I will be in chat, come for live discussions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LISA Posted February 8, 2002 Report Share Posted February 8, 2002 Arthur, the question remains unanswered. "I address you to respond,,if your woman cheats on you in wedlock, which correct me if i'm not mistaken, adultery is a *sin*, you would forgive her and stay???  ***(entertain the notion providing there are no kids involved)" Note where it reads the scenario I am asking you opinion on does not involve children. What would be your resolve? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sip Posted February 8, 2002 Report Share Posted February 8, 2002 quote:Originally posted by LISA:Where are the questions? Most of what you stated anyone with common sense would be able to conclude, though some of it subjective where revenge and driving above the speed limit is concerned.A mother and father disciplining their child is not evil and likewise taking them for vaccine is not evil. On the flip side, a father and mother *abusing* their child where their is no ground for such is evil. Hence the term *child abuse*. I did not find anything to misconstrue.Hmmm, yeah, prisons are usually packed with evil people who are often given a chance to redeem themselves in society. Again obvious, unless someone innocent got thrown in their as a result of 'being in the wrong place at the wrong time.' Big ouch! The law says you can't drive 65 mph. Obviously speeding is not immoral. Go for it but don't cry the blues if you get nailed with a ticket. *Irresponsible*.Drinking and driving. Again employ some common sense. Not evil but irresponsible. Should your irresponsibility cause you hurt an an innocent victim you will be dealt with just punishment. Retribution of a raped family victim. There is something you will find many different opinions on. Did you guys see that movie "A time to Kill" with Samuel L.Jackson?Excellent Movie. Its based on just that.Retribution is not evil but driven by hate/hurt/pain.What I concluded from Henry's post is to esteem to be around good people with good values.I completely agree! That was exactly my point. Common sense and rational thought can almost always do a better job than simple "rules" written in some book! I am saying that people should THINK as opposed to following simple rules because they were written at some point!!!Henry says: "... anything that causes physical pain, anything that's illegal, and immoral [is evil]." As you clearly observed, it is NOT as simple as that and sometimes causing physical pain IS NOT evil (like parents disciplining kids) ... the problem is with the people that can't think clearly ... some of them are in prison, some of them are not (the prison thing is just an example) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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