Dating an Armenian Girl

[Azat]

Dear Aghtchik,

MosJan and actually any moderator may edit your post or any post on this forum. You need to reread the code of conduct of this forum.

 

While I actually thin the word that you have used is not inappropriate, I would say that in the United Stated(weather I like it or not) you may not use that word on TV or Radio. So why should you be able to use it in a public forum?

 

Please come down. You are making a big deal out of nothing. My posts have been edited on this forum and other forums that I belong to and you learn that it is a way of life on forums that are moderated.

[khodja]

I was once very close with the female first cousin of one of the top ten most prominent Greek-Americans in American history. She was so much healthier mentally concerning sexual matters than the Armenian girls I knew. Since Kazza is Greek on her mother's side, I assume that is why she is so mentally healthy on this issue. Since HIV sometimes takes about 20 years to develop in the body, we do not know the true extent of infection in the ROA. The sensibilities of those who don't want to talk about these things may further devastate our populace.

[Azat]

I can attest to that. I haven’t seen a doctor forever.

[MosJan]

if any of our Armenians will use the Armenian word for this - I will get 200 emails asking me to ban him/her

yes we do have a word for it in Armenia - and it's nothing nice - to say it front of your kids. Ask your EX he might teal you… it’s used to describe prostitutes.

Can this be a nice word ? no way

 

No this is not USSR -nor it's Soviet Armenian, this is our Little Armenia this is our OJAKH, ( ask your Ex to Explain what OJAKH is for us Armenians) and we expect everyone to keep it clean!! just like I have asked you >Aghchigjan lets jkeep it clean!! < non of this is an insult to you - do you see anything insulting in this words ?

 

if you pay attention you can see that I did not say anything concerning your post have I ?– I have respected your opinion, now teak a cold shower and wan you calm dawn explain to me way cant we keep this place clean…

 

I have edited you post – yes I have – and I edit many posts – just pay attention!!!

 

Some members understand some don’t. will sorry to se that you don’t

And one more time – all of our guest and members are welcomed in HyeForum – help your self use it us you like – just remember to keep to clean.

[Sip]

Holly *****

 

I go away for a ***** few hours and I miss all the **** !!! What the *********?!!!!!!

 

For whatever it's worth, here's what I think. There are certain words that are HUGE taboos in the US. It was amazing to me to see how much more "controlled" the media is in "the land of the free" than in Europe

 

What is most disturbing, is then, instead of actually using the word which EVERYONE knows, yes even the all pure childeren who are older than 5 years of age ... they substitute ridiculous (although very funny at times) and even more degrading and "ugly" phrases in their place.

 

So for example, our (in)famous phrase used above, can appear in a "public" tv show over and over in the forms such as:

 

"play the bagpipe"

"blow the whistle"

"getting a facial in downtown"

"having a scooby snack"

and "playing tonsil hockey"

 

Among other much "worse" versions. For a more comprehensive list, GO HERE (warning, inappropriate language ) ... So on the principle of the subject, I am definitely with Aghtchik on this.

 

However, I also fully understand MosJan's actions and I don't think they should be taken in a "personal" way. The forum does have rules and I think the owners of the forum have the right to excercise those rules as they please ... of course they are the ultimate ones who have to "interpret" those rules and set the "boundaries" of acceptable actions. As far as the "tonsil hockey" phrase, it is a big no no in the US so Mos's actions are not that unfounded (according to US standards).

 

The problem the moderators and the admins face is that there is NO way they can make EVERYONE happy all the time. All they can hope for is to make most people happy most of the time and hope that at some point, someone will be kind enough to say "THANKS" for all you are doing.

 

Having said all that, I think this has been one of the more entertaining and most enlightening topics I have ever seen here. Even with the "removed" phrases, it is still a very interesting topic although it has changed focus several times.

 

So what are we talking about now?

 

.

.

 

[ August 04, 2002, 10:25 PM: Message edited by: Sip ]

[elovna]

I apologize for my cursing, but NOT for using the the word B.L.O.W.J.O.B.

[nairi]

Think of it as going on the Oprah Winfrey show, Elly. This isn't Jerry Springer. And you know how conservative Americans are. Maybe we should just respect their way of life. If this Thorny Rose genuinely wanted to stay and contribute, she would have held her words back every now and again. You know, even among adults, Armenians/Americans don't like swear words or words alluding to sex and such.

 

On the other hand, Mosjan, this IS the Love&Romance section. Should it not be X-rated either way? This is not the kiddy section, if you catch my drift. Perhaps this is good time to rate it.

 

Nairi

[THOTH]

I think we are getting a little overly worked up here. While I agree that perhaps the language rules are a bit tight (and am still not happy over the whole Thorny Rose affair that I think was grossly mishandald) - I do think we need to be considerate regarding our language used on public forums - though I think context is critical. I for one have no problem with the discussion prior and your use of words Aghtchick - but I think you are somewhat overeacting here (IMHO). Please try to be more calm and make your points in a manner that may lead to influencing ones opinion - not offending. I don't always agree with MsJan - but he is trying his best as he sees it.

[THOTH]

quote:

---

Originally posted by nairi:

Dearest God of Intelligence,

 

May I kneel at your feet, my most humble Deity? I thank you for your most humble answer to my most foolish inquiry. Please tell me master, IYMHO, how must I answer your most humble question, when I do not carry your most humble name?

---

What did I say? You don't like my moniker? You think I am being presumptuous? (hey I can't even spell...) Whats wrong Nairi - what did I do?

[elovna]

Nairi.

 

Mosjan has power on this forum and he's not using it right. If this was about use of language... but it's not. It's about abusing power and about hypocricy. On a forum where freedom of speech is so important, being a serious point of discussion even sometimes (so I assume it is of interest to the readers), for such a forum it is so terribly important that people ARE free to speak. I know that there are certain rules, of course I know!! Did I not respect those rules always? Why does Mosjan have to treat me as someone unreasonable and abuse his power to censor me without even speaking to me about it beforehand?

 

Now who is insulting who here I ask you?

 

Don't take this personally now Nairi. I have to address this to someone.

 

I am taking this matter very seriously. And about contributing to this forum... This forum is a farce if it is run by moderators like mosjan.

 

I did nothing wrong. I insulted no one, I did not curse, I did not talk dirty or vulgar, I merely spoke the truth and I feel that an apology is in order and I am not the one who has to apologize.

[nairi]

Nothing Thoth jan. I like your name. I think it suits you. I just couldn't help myself with the words "humble" and "IMHO". And I genuinely couldn't answer your question. Sorry, bad sense of humor. Hope you can forgive me.

 

Nairi

[elovna]

Thanks for speaking up people, not for me but for principle's sake.

 

I am not mad at Mosjan personally. I may have said some things in my anger that show otherwise, but actually I am not mad at all anymore. I just think this whole issue is plain stupid, rediculous even.

 

About the Forum rules....

 

I don't feel that I have violated the rules on this forum, not until AFTER Mosjan messed with my posting. For every insulting word I have said AFTER it, I apologize.

 

I can point out many recent postings where intelligent and respected members are throwing dirt at each other in anger, just because they don't agree, or because they don't like the other person. Apparently that is considered 'civilized' here and it does not violate the rules:

 

******

DO NOT

 

1. Post vulgar, hateful, harassing, obscene, profane, invasive of a person’s privacy, threatening, inaccurate, defamatory, false, insulting, or abusive material.

2. Post advertisements, chain letters, pyramid schemes, or solicitations

3. Include personal communication in your posts or otherwise digress from the original topic.

 

DO

 

1. Post relevant, useful, informative, intelligent, well thought-out, constructively critical, well meaning, educational, coherent material.

2. Post arguments that are well mannered, balanced, logical and otherwise appropriate in nature.

3. Keep your emotions in check.

 

******

 

I did not do any of what is under "Do Not".

I did what is under "Do".

 

This is a principle matter. If the use of one single word the way I used it, in a context as I have put it in, with NO intentions what so ever to shock, to insult or to be obscene, can 'rightfully' be censored.... than I really can't take this Forum serious as a free place to discuss and share opinions, sorry.

 

The fact that 3 members have complained does not justify Mosjan's decission to censor what I wrote. He is a moderator and should be capable of acting like a judge here, more or less, it's his job. I don't care who or how many complained, it proves nothing. What happened here is rediculous and injust.

 

The whole thing actually proves the very point I was making in that very sentence where I used the word BJ. And Mosjan doesn't even seem to realize it. THAT is why I think he is not capable of deciding when he has to act and interfear and how, regardless of how good or bad Mosjans intentions are. I am sure they are the very best, AS my own. Now anyone can make a mistake, even a moderator (but not too many) and there is always time to set things straight, so I am waiting for that to happen and it has nothing to do with stubbornnes. I don't have any problems with admitting my mistakes myself. I have done so already. But I won't admit to one that I did not commit, the supposed one that started this whole commotion. And I still feel that apologies are in order here, by Mosjan. No one else should feel obliged to apologize FOR him (although I do appreciate the attempts made by some, since it shows me that I am not entirely alone here with my 'alien' reasoning).

[THOTH]

Aghtchik - I agree:

 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Aghtchik:

I don't feel that I have violated the rules on this forum, not until AFTER Mosjan messed with my posting. For every insulting word I have said AFTER it, I apologize.

 

I did not do any of what is under "Do Not".

I did what is under "Do".

 

This is a principle matter. If the use of one single word the way I used it, in a context as I have put it in, with NO intentions what so ever to shock, to insult or to be obscene, can 'rightfully' be censored.... than I really can't take this Forum serious as a free place to discuss and share opinions, sorry.

 

The fact that 3 members have complained does not justify Mosjan's decission to censor what I wrote. He is a moderator and should be capable of acting like a judge here, more or less, it's his job. I don't care who or how many complained, it proves nothing. What happened here is rediculous and injust.

 

The whole thing actually proves the very point I was making in that very sentence where I used the word BJ. And Mosjan doesn't even seem to realize it.

---

[elovna]

I understand very well what's going on here Mosjan and I sincerely regret that it is happening. But you are right. This is your Ojakh. I am only a guest here. Sorry for thinking and acting as a member and as a human being.

 

As for for the cleanness of this place, next time it gets dirty, remember me.

 

Ok. I am off. Good luck to you all.

[elovna]

If anyone cares to get in touch with me, my e-mail address is aghtchik@hotmail.com

[nairi]

Jesus Christ Mosjan. Is this the Middle-Ages where you can exile and ban people? Why are these 200 people, or 3 that complained, not voicing their opinion aloud? Why does criticism here have to be so secretive? They don't like it, let them explain why, in public. Perhaps then we can reach a mutual agreement.

 

Nairi

[nairi]

Mosjan, please don't take the above too personally. I'm sorry that it came out so harsh. From the beginning I agreed with you that vulgar language doesn't belong on this forum, and that Elly could have used a more concealed word or expression. I also fully understand, as I said in the beginning, the Armenian/American way of life and would like to respect that for the people who cherish it so dearly on this forum.

 

Elly jan, please don't let this be your last encounter with Armenians. You've had enough nasty experiences with us already, please don't add this to your list. I understand your desire for freedom of speech, but you too must understand that freedom of speech differs per culture as well. Just two years ago, our famous Leen van Dijke was sentenced to a day in prison for publicly uttering anti-homosexual ideologies in Holland. In Armenia, Van Dijke would have been revered for the same deed. See how freedom of speech can differ from one culture to another? You must understand that we are not even a quarter as evolved as you are in sexual matters. This may seem wrong to you, but Armenians are not ready to make that big change yet, and they might never be. Please don't let this one aspect in our (backward) culture hold you back. As you have seen, there ARE Armenians who are not hypocritical and narrow-minded, and I hope that for them alone you come back.

 

Veel liefs,

Nairi

[Kazza]

Since this following post in this thread here, I have posted about three messages, myself, from Kazza, last night. I have double checked and they are not there. Could someone tell me what's going on please?

 

" MJ

Member

Member # 87

posted August 04, 2002 06:40 AM                      

------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

quote:

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Originally posted by Aghtchik:

MJ. Are you saying that you are not familiar with a thing called blowjob?

------------------------------------------------------------------------

What's that, Elly?

In Soviet Armenia, we don't know such words and we don't do such things - whatever it may mean.

------------------------------------------------------------------------"

[nairi]

Kazza jan, I can still see your posts (bottom page 2). Maybe your connection is down.

 

Nairi

[Harut]

Dear Aghtchik,

 

please, no need for anger. nothing wrong has been conducted up to the point where to got angry.

MosJan has exercised his right of editing a post that has been found to be provocative.

 

to address the issues you brought up, the hypocrasy, as you named it, about the word mentioned by you, and your post being edited, i would like to try to reveal some explanations.

 

first, i do not see any hypocrasy in MosJan's action. it's one thing to talk or act the way to want in the surroundings of your close ones, and another thing to bring them to public forums. i may be using such words and may enjoy (as you mentioned) such actions to be performed for me, but that does not necessarily or automatically give me the right to talk about it in public, especially in a forum like ours, HyeForum, where ethics tend to be more restrictive (conservative, if you please). yes, i believe that ethics have been established in this forum. and fortunately or unfortunately, that is up to the person, they contain conservativeness.

 

second, about your post being edited, as i mentioned above, MosJan has only exercised his rights. no need to be upset. under the code of condact of HyeForum, moderators have the right to edit and even delete posts in place of need.

if you thought that it is not correct to edit your post without keeping you informed privately, then you could have contacted MosJan privately yourself and experessed your complaint. there was no need to make it public and make inconvenience for members and moderators equally.

 

i hope i was fair and clear in expressing my thoughts and insights.

 

thank you for your understanding and cooperation.

 

Harut

moderator at HyeForum

 

P.S. just a remainder that we strongly discourage name calling in the forum.

[MosJan]

KEEP IN MIND

 

1. Moderators will periodically check the material posted for adherence to the Code of Conduct.

2. Objectionable material will be either edited or deleted.

3. The violator will be given two warnings. Upon his/her third violation of the Code of Conduct, he/she will be banned from Hye Forum.

4. The administration of Hye Forum reserves the right to reveal your identity in the event of a complaint or legal action arising from any message posted by you.

 

Aghchig you have a interesting way of playing a round the words and ignoring the one that has been brat to your attention - > in above sentence you can see in read color and in BOLD the word edited ? can you see that ?? I have no need to ask you or ask anyone before editing the posts – in your case I have asked you 2 times in a PM to edit your Signature – have you ever respond to it? Your still have advertisement in your Signature, now for teh 3rd and last time whan you get some free time in your hends deled the URL from your Signature.

 

My intentions are not to insult anyone or not respect anyone’s opinion / now you can start playing more round the words / and post 20 more posts / to me it will not change anything - i have edit a post and askd your to ->Aghchigjan lets ceep it clean!!< word JAN is not a insult none of this words is a insult to any one -

 

i have work to do...

and a life...

MOvses

 

[ August 05, 2002, 05:25 PM: Message edited by: MosJan ]

[SAS]

-Inch klini, yete forumic mi aghjik pakasi, h@?

 

Im kartsiqov klini ... aghjka sov:

[Sip]

http://zr2.cs.ucla.edu/Sip/zr2/roflmao.gif oh that works on sooo many levels !!!

 

First time I heard that term, "Fellatio", I thought it was some kind of deep-fried middle-eastern/Itallian dish. Now it sounds more like something Starbucks would have on their menu. Yah, I'll have a tall double-moca-Fellatio to go please ... do you want cream on that? Yah.

 

At least I now know what it means ... in case someone offers ... hey, it could happen ... you never know.

 

... and I could win the lottery one day too.

 

.

 

[ August 05, 2002, 12:20 AM: Message edited by: Sip ]

[elovna]

Why not, Sip, we already have "orgasm on the beach" and such.

 

[ August 05, 2002, 12:52 AM: Message edited by: Aghtchik ]

[elovna]

Mosjan,

 

I have no personal messages from you that mention anything about my signature and I have kept all my messages since I joined the forum over a year ago. I have 3 pms from you, so it wasn't difficult to check. I would surely remember having received such a note. So either you are mistaken or ... I dont know what happened… you tell me, but I hope you are not making this up to make me look bad.

But even if I would have overlooked such a message, there are still ways, like right in the middle of a thread, to get my attention and say: "b.t.w. Elly, didn't you receive my personal message?" I know that is not according to the CODE OF CONDUCT to exchange personal messages/remarks in a public thread but since even moderators do it frequently I don’t see why in this case it suddenly should not be one of the options.

 

But what about my signature, Mosjan? Your comments came as a total surprise to me now. It never even crossed my mind that I am in violation with the forum rules by linking to a non-profit website (that of all things is set up to serve the purpose of getting the Armenian Genocide recognized), which as you know in my country The Netherlands is becoming a nasty issue. Did I (2.) Post advertisements, chain letters, pyramid schemes, or solicitations?

Don’t get me wrong… I don’t feel that - because I am trying to do everything I can to help make justice be done in this Dutch-Turkish-Armenian Question - I have the right to go past the forum rules. But that this of all things now also suddenly becomes a problem…. shame on you!

 

To me it seems that not only the Turks live in denial. The Armenians do a pretty good job themselves if you ask me.

 

The fact that your “KEEP IN MIND” says that moderators have the right to edit postings at any moment does not prove that in this particular case it is justifiable to actually go and do it any way you please, does it? I am not ignoring anything, including your “KEEP IN MIND”. But let me say it one more time, I did not violate any rules! No matter how you twist things around. So what are you suggesting?… That I did not mention the “keep in mind” part to hide something? My way of “playing around with words”? Oh my. Why would I hide something that is public knowledge. That is what YOU are doing. It is exactly what all of this is about!!

Also your tone of commenting about my supposed way of 'playing around with words' is totally unnecessary, especially when you have asked me to calm down, and apart from that it is bullshit (excuse my lang!), the only thing you may be proving by saying it is your own paranoia.

 

Also, if you really want me to calm down you should really consider changing your way of handling matters like this. Psychologically it is not very smart to tell a person to calm down and to provoke him at the same time because you are not calm yourself. Your tone, from the very start, is not very nice, in case you did not realize it. All of this, Mosjan, you should give some attention for the sake of being able to function well as a moderator, the policeman or judge on this forum.

 

Nairi jan,

 

I appreciate your efforts to keep the peace. But I don’t agree with everything you say. The freedom of speech may be ‘seen’ different in different cultures, I won’t argue with that. But don’t you think it’s a little twisted, the fact that one moment on this very forum the right to freedom of speech in the Netherlands is being put on a stand, as if freedom of speech is/should be a universal thing (also my opinion) and then the next moment because of a certain simple word that makes some people uncomfortable because they are too hypocrite to dare to face their own ‘(un)clean’ minds, it is suddenly a different thing in a different culture? Sorry that I am getting at least a little confused here.

 

It has nothing to do with freedom of speech when in certain cultures the ruling majority is allowed to insult and discriminate for example homosexuals. In the days of Stalin there was also a freedom of speech: the Stalinist one. Same thing with the Nazi one, etc. Do you really consider that "freedom of speech" in the true sense of the word? Well, however you look at it, I will stick to my universal version.

 

According to my definition (a universal) freedom of speech is not based on restrictions invented by certain people for the purpose of keeping themselves in the saddle, it is based on equal rights and respect regardless of their religion, color, ideas, etc. and that is a totally different starting point.

 

Unfortunately this IS a nasty experience and therefore it will end up in my list. That’s how things generally work. But that doesn’t mean I will close my heart for all Armenians. It means that I will be more careful with them in the future, because I am not a masochist. I don’t take these things personally, but it hurts nevertheless.

 

Harut jan.

 

“first, i do not see any hypocrasy in MosJan's action.”

 

It is your right and up to you to not see it Harut, it’s fine by me.

 

“it's one thing to talk or act the way to want in the surroundings of your close ones, and another thing to bring them to public forums. i may be using such words and may enjoy (as you mentioned) such actions to be performed for me, but that does not necessarily or automatically give me the right to talk about it in public, especially in a forum like ours, HyeForum, where ethics tend to be more restrictive (conservative, if you please).

 

So what are you saying? Sex is something to DO, but not something to talk about on a discussion Forum? Where can I find such restrictions in this forums code of conduct? Can you show me? Did I post any of this: vulgar, hateful, harassing, obscene, profane, invasive of a person’s privacy, threatening, inaccurate, defamatory, false, insulting, or abusive material?

Just say it if you really think I am guilty of having posted any of the above type of material prior to Mosjan’s editing of my post. Just tell me in public here now that what you and most men love to enjoy in private so much, it is too vulgar and obscene to be reminded of in public in 1 single simple word in a context written for the purpose of pointing out hypocrisy. Just say so, so that in future everyone will know that it is allowed to talk of “flies attracted to shit” to insult or hurt each other, but do not even mention any BJ’s in this place because then all of a sudden the ethics of the Forum are endangered. I cannot force anyone to see the ridiculety and hypocrisy in all of this. I can only hope that it won’t stay unnoticed.

 

Excuse me Harut. We are not children here, are we? And even though for me it doesn’t make any difference where it happened, it WAS after all the love & romance section, where I used the word. To bring in an argument like “ we have under aged members to consider”, pffff, I don’t think I need to comment on that, do I.

 

“yes, i believe that ethics have been established in this forum. and fortunately or unfortunately, that is up to the person, they contain conservativeness.”

 

The ethics shown by the “CODE OF CONDUCT” of this forum are not conservative at all in my opinion, to me they seem very universal, but they can be interpreted either this or that way, depending on which moderator is guarding these ethics, what mood he or she is in, etc. It may even depend on whether his or her sexual needs were satisfied last night or not.

 

“second, about your post being edited, as i mentioned above, MosJan has only exercised his rights. no need to be upset. under the code of condact of HyeForum, moderators have the right to edit and even delete posts in place of need.”

 

I assume that the rights of moderators were not invented to accommodate the moderators. That is turning things upside down in my opinion. If there are ethics to be defended, let them do just that, but let them do it right and just. As for having been upset, let me be my own judge of that. Apparently I had reason to, otherwise I would have reacted differently, would I not.

 

I notice that some of you find yourselves in dubio over this matter. I am sorry to have brought you in this nasty position by being a little too open for your tastes. I understand very well what the problem is, and it is not me.

 

“if you thought that it is not correct to edit your post without keeping you informed privately, then you could have contacted MosJan privately yourself and experessed your complaint.”

 

You have totally misunderstood me, Harut. I think it should be very clear by now that I am for openness and therefore I don’t care at all about being informed about this matter publicly. But I was not informed at all. I was “confronted” in a very unpleasant way with the so called ‘ethics’ of this forum, namely by Mosjan breaking in to my post to erase the word I chose to write to make my point and only after that he pointed his finger at me. Again: I do not mind at all that this was done publicly, on the contrary. But since, in my opinion, I have always shown myself as a reasonable person on this Forum I think that Mosjan’s way of taking care of his’ and those 3 members’ problem was totally unnecessary. The fact that the Forum rules give him the right to do it, does not necessarily mean that it IS ‘right’ to do it… RIGHT?

 

“there was no need to make it public and make inconvenience for members and moderators equally.”

 

Mosjan did publicly censor me, did he not? So he can expect me to react publicly.

 

To all of you.

 

This will be my very last word in this matter and on this Forum. I have thought well about what to say and I think I said it well. You can ignore it, condemn it, agree with it… whatever you like. Some of you may be pleased to get rid of me, others my miss me, either way… I will not stay.

 

I wish every single one of you good luck.

 

P.S. Sorry for posting once more, for the last time now, advertising material in my signature.