marco Posted August 2, 2002 Report Share Posted August 2, 2002 (edited) Armenian girls Edited August 4, 2003 by marco Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sip Posted August 2, 2002 Report Share Posted August 2, 2002 Dear Marco, I completely understand what you are saying and sympathise with your painful experience. There was only one thing that bothered me in your post and that was the fact that you seemed to blame the pregnancy on her. In my view, the conception of a child is the act of two people ... usually a male and a female. Although the abortion issue is a very difficult one to address, the pregnancy thing was probably not her "fault" (at least not 100%), although of course I do NOT know the whole story. In any case, best of luck to you from now on Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elovna Posted August 2, 2002 Report Share Posted August 2, 2002 Sip. I don't read it the way you did. To me Marco just tells in short the main thread of what happened. He can hardly say "I got pregnant" and he did not say "she got herself pregnant." You have to be careful about assuming things between the lines. You may be showing more of your own mind than of Marco's in this case. Marco. 'Assuming' that you told us the truth... It seems to me that your ex-girlfriend(s love for you) was not strong enough to win over the power of her family and you got hurt by it very deeply. I understand what you are going through. I am an 'odar' myself and went through simular problems with my ex-Armenian-boyfriend, so I know what I'm talking about. The advice you are giving... it would be great if peoply in general (not only Armenians) would be able to think of the consequences of their actions up forehand. Unfortunately that is not how life works. People make mistakes that they will later regret or even NOT:). But everyone has to make their own mistakes, their own experiences to learn from. This is not something you can prevent, especially where hormones take over as in romance. If your experience was caused by Armenian narrowmindedness (if I may call it that -- no offense but it DOES exist) and if it is something that will change or even has to change, then it will, but it will take time. In the meanwhile you can make sure to protect yourself from getting hurt again by using what you have learned in life sofar. Something else I want to mention is 'our' own role in stories like this. 'We' (the victims) were not completely ignorant or helpless. For some reason we let it come this far. We could have stopped it intime... I mean, the danger of getting hurt. We saw it coming, but didn't stop it. Apparently we had reason to do it that way. We took a risk and we lost. For me it has become a valuable life lesson and I hope, one day you will also see it that way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sip Posted August 3, 2002 Report Share Posted August 3, 2002 quote:Originally posted by Aghtchik:... You may be showing more of your own mind than of Marco's in this case. Yes very true. That is how I understood what I read and I appologize if that is not what was meant Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted August 3, 2002 Report Share Posted August 3, 2002 Marco - sorry for your unpleasent experience all around. But IMO this is a story that could happen to about anyone under similar circumstances - not just concerning Armeninas. I don't discount some of the hypocrisyhowever. Anyway - live & learn - better luck next time & very sincerely sory about the (near) kid....of course seems like lots of potential issues and some shared responsibility - etc. Anyway - too bad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elovna Posted August 3, 2002 Report Share Posted August 3, 2002 See, Marco, there are also good Armenians! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marco Posted August 3, 2002 Author Report Share Posted August 3, 2002 Thank you all for understanding. I know and can see that there are good Armenians. I just wanted to say that eventhough we were engaged to be married, I dont understand why someone would go through all the motions if they knew there were factors in their family life (traditionalist non-accepting parents) that would make things difficult. Her having immersed herself in my family, friends, social circles, as my future wife all the while remaining silent to her parents and her community, all the while knowing that if push came to shove she would choose her parents over me (which is what happened). Our relationship had no intrinsic defects except her parents approval. I would never have done the same to her. Her pregnancy was in no way an obstacle for a couple who were planning to get married anyways. But no matter what I said, no matter what I did, I had no control over her terminating her pregnancy. And insult to injury because of absolutely no reason except her claim of inconvenience. But I am sure it was because she knew she wouldnt marry me, all the while making me beleive in our future. Anyways, a real bad story. I dont wish what happened to me, unto anyone else. Best to learn from my story. There were no winners in the game she was playing. Anyways, I apologize for the questions, no one will ever know the truth but her. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJ Posted August 3, 2002 Report Share Posted August 3, 2002 Dear Marco, The sad story you have conveyed is characteristic not to just Armenians. You can come up with such stories pretty much in every culture - even within the same nation - at least since the times of Shakespeare. Now that you have not been lucky in love, given that you should be luck, then, in cards, you should arrange a trip to Las Vegas. Good Luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragon Posted August 3, 2002 Report Share Posted August 3, 2002 All what you said is your personal opinion and your point of view to your story, right marco? Well, in my opinion, for armenian girl, especially the one who is coming from traditional family, is not that much ready to lose her verginiy and get pregnant from the guy whom she is not going to marry. In the other hand, abortion hurts, and hurts deeply, girls don't want to lose their babies, but for you as if she was having a piece of cake... I think you are hiding some truths from us. Sorry to tell u this, but as far as I know, armenian families don't want these kind of ''scandals'' to happen, unless they have strong reasons to oppose the marriage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elovna Posted August 3, 2002 Report Share Posted August 3, 2002 quote:Originally posted by THOTH:But IMO this is a story that could happen to about anyone under similar circumstances - not just concerning Armeninas. I don't discount some of the hypocrisyhowever. That is absolutely true Toth. But since this is an Armenian Forum we are discussing Armenian related issues and a story like Marco's or mine is not unlikely to happen in these specific (Armenian) circumstances. What was most hurtful for me in my story, was not the fact that in the end I was not excepted for whatever reason (since everyone is entitled to have his own opinion), but the way I was treated, the way the problem was handled, in fact by not handling it at all, by making it into a taboo subject. I would even go as far as calling it "inhumane", these 'Armenian-Soviet ways'. And this is not something that 'just' involved a single Armenian family. The story took place in a large Armenian community in a wellknown and very Western place. It involved 'intelligent', 'civilized' and 'sensative' people, who are very well capable of knowing the difference between right and wrong, which I consider to be universal human understandings or at least they should be. These people had a choice and they chose the easiest way out: let's make the problem go away by simply ignoring it. So they all did, without even having to agree on it outloud, as if a silent mass brainwashing process took place. I'm sorry for getting the impression that it seems to be their natural way. I know that my experience doesn't mean that all Armenians are like that. And I am not posting this here to make the members of this forum feel guilty about something they didn't even have part in. In fact, this Forum indirectly helped me deal with the trauma I was left with, because I have found some good Armenian friends here. But maybe some of you recognize what I am saying. I do believe that there is something as an "Armenian-Soviet way" and that it is not an exception. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elovna Posted August 3, 2002 Report Share Posted August 3, 2002 quote:Originally posted by MJ:Dear Marco, The sad story you have conveyed is characteristic not to just Armenians. You can come up with such stories pretty much in every culture - even within the same nation - at least since the times of Shakespeare. That is only partially true MJ. For me with my Dutch background it was really unbelievable what I experienced. It was like being part of a horrible movie. While in Holland this type of stories will be very rare these days, I think in Armenian circles they are much more common or likely to happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elovna Posted August 3, 2002 Report Share Posted August 3, 2002 quote:Originally posted by dragon:All what you said is your personal opinion and your point of view to your story, right marco? Well, in my opinion, for armenian girl, especially the one who is coming from traditional family, is not that much ready to lose her verginiy and get pregnant from the guy whom she is not going to marry. In the other hand, abortion hurts, and hurts deeply, girls don't want to lose their babies, but for you as if she was having a piece of cake... I think you are hiding some truths from us. Sorry to tell u this, but as far as I know, armenian families don't want these kind of ''scandals'' to happen, unless they have strong reasons to oppose the marriage.Dragon. Are you psychic? How do you know he is hiding the truth? Just because you don't like to be confronted with his story? Maybe you are right that Armenian families want to avoid 'scandalls'. I only wish they would do it in a more humane way. I don't see where Marco wrote that for the girl it was a piece of cake to have an abortion. Will you please stop filling in the gaps with your own fantasies!!!!!! What do you want. Should Marco type you a whole bookwork here with every little detail, so you can judge if he is telling the truth?? oh, oh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nairi Posted August 3, 2002 Report Share Posted August 3, 2002 Ha die Elly! Hoe gaat het? I completely agree with you. Although I wouldn't only ascribe it Soviet Armenians. I think many Armenians all over the East still have this kind of mentality. Cheating, stealing, lying and somehow getting their way. Remember "Trust a snake before a Jew, a Jew before a Greek, but never trust an Armenian"? This proverb didn't fall from the sky. Middle-Easterners must have noticed something. To Dragon, I don't see what truths Marco should be hiding from us. You know how (traditional) Armenian parents oppose assimilation. I think the root of the problem may have lay there, although I wouldn't dare say for sure. Nairi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elovna Posted August 3, 2002 Report Share Posted August 3, 2002 quote:Originally posted by dragon:Well, in my opinion, for armenian girl, especially the one who is coming from traditional family, is not that much ready to lose her verginiy and get pregnant from the guy whom she is not going to marry. This is another subject, but it came to my mind when I read the above. Those traditional girls, Armenian or American, who go through life as being Virgins still, so clean and pure... I wouldn't want to have to feed the ones that know perfectly how to satisfy boys, men, by giving them nice ........ That is really some virginity. Aghchigjan lets ceep it clean!! [ August 03, 2002, 09:33 PM: Message edited by: MosJan ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJ Posted August 3, 2002 Report Share Posted August 3, 2002 Elly, But have you tried your luck in cards? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elovna Posted August 3, 2002 Report Share Posted August 3, 2002 quote:Originally posted by MJ:Elly, But have you tried your luck in cards?Are you inviting to me try my luck in Las Vegas? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elovna Posted August 3, 2002 Report Share Posted August 3, 2002 Hoi Nairi. Pffffffff. Ik mag jou wel. Ik geloof dat we wel op dezelfde golflengte zitten. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJ Posted August 3, 2002 Report Share Posted August 3, 2002 quote:Originally posted by Aghtchik: quote:Originally posted by MJ:Elly, But have you tried your luck in cards?Are you inviting to me try my luck in Las Vegas? Under the current circumstances Monte Carlo might be easier... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragon Posted August 3, 2002 Report Share Posted August 3, 2002 I don't use my fantasies in such issues honey but i use my mind and my experience in knowing my people psychology for further extend 1- We have to know where this story happened (country is important to understand the circumstances of parent's reaction in ''odar'' matters. If you want I can tell u more ) 2- Armenian families want their daughters to get marry in their 20s. Why to oppose then, if he is a good guy and their DAUGHTER loves her. Armenians don't go that far to kill their daughters love. Fathers do, but mothers try to fix things to finish the opposition, in most time. 3- IF SHE LOVES HIM, she will do anything for him, no girl, in that age, can say no to her love for her parents to satisfy. May be if she was older, she will try to find a way to satisfy both. But to say no in that age, after having full sex with him and get pregnant, it is out of logic, unless she realizes that HE IS NOT GOOD FOR HER AS HUSBAND. 4- Women and especially armenians, they want to biuld family like they parents did. An in 20's to have family is a big issue, it is a must for armenian women, but for older women, it loses its interests, because women over 30 start to think about their own life happiness, they only want to have b/f, stable job and personal life. And all these in general. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elovna Posted August 3, 2002 Report Share Posted August 3, 2002 I see, Dragon. There is no point in argueing with you, since you think you know it all. I will leave you that illusion and waste no energy on it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elovna Posted August 3, 2002 Report Share Posted August 3, 2002 quote:Originally posted by nairi:Ha die Elly! Hoe gaat het? I completely agree with you. Although I wouldn't only ascribe it Soviet Armenians. I think many Armenians all over the East still have this kind of mentality. Cheating, stealing, lying and somehow getting their way. Remember "Trust a snake before a Jew, a Jew before a Greek, but never trust an Armenian"? This proverb didn't fall from the sky. Middle-Easterners must have noticed something.Yes, I remember the saying. What you described is exactly what I experienced. I think that every nation or people has it's special issues, even we Dutch. And I believe that it's always good to bring them out in the open, so they can be faced and delt with. It will help to make a better world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragon Posted August 3, 2002 Report Share Posted August 3, 2002 As u wish hollandian girl I cannot force you to continue with me in this matter, but i tried to find out why Marco been rejected from my people to become our pesa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nairi Posted August 3, 2002 Report Share Posted August 3, 2002 quote:Originally posted by Aghtchik: And I believe that it's always good to bring them out in the open, so they can be faced and delt with. It will help to make a better world.Couldn't agree with you more! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sip Posted August 4, 2002 Report Share Posted August 4, 2002 quote:Originally posted by Aghtchik:... Ik geloof dat we wel op dezelfde golflengte zitten.Ik wil golf spelen wanneer ik rijk word. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted August 4, 2002 Report Share Posted August 4, 2002 Yes Aghtchick - I do not discount that your words ring true. I have seen my own extended family deal with things (avoidance/ignoring ewtc) in the very way that you describe. I do however take a bit of offense at this notion of never trust an Armenian. For the most part I think the very opposite is true. We cannot help if others feel ripped off or such because we are more shrewd...(hey I've had car dealerships try to buy the car back from me etc...what can I say...bargaining is certainly in my blood...) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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