Hamshentsa

[hagopn]

Steve,

 

About the Hamshenatsi, I think that you need to study more. You sound like you have no idea what you are talking about. There are indeed Christian Hamshenatsi up the Black Sea coast all the way to Sochi/Adler and beyond. They are even scattered about the Crimea and the rest of the Ukraine. There may well be some in other parts of Russia.

 

As to populaton figures: Those in Turkey who have assumed a Turkish identity have populated the various regions of Turkey. The Laz live not only in the north eastern sea-coast or mountain range, but all over Turkey as a result of economic stagnation in the east. "Hamshenli" are in the same situation; i.e. all over Turkey. They were ecountered by Armenians from Syria in Adana, Mersin, and so on. They could very well number above the "valley system sustenance" figures due to the inherent urbanization trends of the Turkish economy in the last 3 decades.

Edited November 26, 2003 by hagopn

[bellthecat]

Steve

Armenians living along black sea (Georgia, Abkhazia, S. Russia) are called hamshenahayer.

i don't know more than that.

I also know that (hence my stress that I was refering only to Turkey) - but I also don't know much more. Though I do not think they migrated from the current Hemshin valleys, which were completely Muslim by the 19th century. Perhaps they originated from the separate community of Hemshinli who live in the hills to the east of Borcka.

 

Nor does the fact that Armenians living along black sea are called hamshenahayer mean that they actually came from Hamshen. In Turkey, in popular language, anyone from the Black sea is called "Laz" but 90 percent are actually not Laz. So maybe "hamshenahayer" simply refers to any Armenian who migrated from north-eastern Turkey to Abkhazia. But I don't know for certain.

[hagopn]

Steve

Armenians living along black sea (Georgia, Abkhazia, S. Russia) are called hamshenahayer.

i don't know more than that.

 

I also know that (hence my stress that I was refering only to Turkey) - but I also don't know much more. Though I do not think they migrated from the current Hemshin valleys, which were completely Muslim by the 19th century. Perhaps they originated from the separate community of Hemshinli who live in the hills to the east of Borcka.

 

Nor does the fact that Armenians living along black sea are called hamshenahayer mean that they actually came from Hamshen. In Turkey, in popular language, anyone from the Black sea is called "Laz" but 90 percent are actually not Laz. So maybe "hamshenahayer" simply refers to any Armenian who migrated from north-eastern Turkey to Abkhazia. But I don't know for certain.

Steve,

 

I think you are now ni the process of denying existing evidence. That is a dangerous practice. They are and have been called Hamsheanhayer due to the disctintly Hamshenite dialect that they speak. Like I said, go do your studies more thoroughly.

Edited November 26, 2003 by hagopn

[bellthecat]

Steve,

 

About the Hamshenatsi, I think that you need to study more. You sound like you have no idea what you are talking about.

 

As to populaton figures: Those in Turkey who have assumed a Turkish identity have populated the various regions of Turkey. The Laz live not only in the north eastern sea-coast or mountain range, but all over Turkey as a result of economic stagnation in the east. "Hamshenli" are in the same situation; i.e. all over Turkey. They were ecountered by Armenians from Syria in Adana, Mersin, and so on. They could very well number above the "valley system sustenance" figures due to the inherent urbanization trends of the Turkish economy in the last 3 decades.

No Hagopn - it is you who do not know what you are talking about! Unlike you, I have been to the areas in question, and explored them in depth.

 

Stop talking nonsence about there being Hemshinli in Adana or Mersin - there may be a few hundred but not more than that. And stop your similar nonsence about "economic stagnation". They are leaving the villages for the same reason that villages throughout Europe get depopulated - life is easier in the cities. They are leaving because there is NOT economic stagnation.

 

I was fortunate to have spoken to the probably last living Armenian who lived in pre-1915 Adapazar, near to the Hemshinli villages there. He confirmed that they were all Muslim, but were still recognised as Armenian by the local Christian Armenains.

[hagopn]

Sorry to say, I think that you are denying evidence that has been provided by living communities. The Russia Hamshentsi are indeed Hamshentsi as has been confirmed by linguists. They speak the dialect that the Turkish Hamshentsi speak.

 

As to the speculations on how many there possibly are in Adana, Mersin, neither you nor the Turkish government (wants to) know the ethnic make-up of its urban centers. All you are armed is with anecdotal "evidence" based on personal experience. That is, sorry to say, limited in scope since you do not represent a team or institution.

 

Other than that, I will ask for the third time, where did you get your information (and don't give me "anecdotal" travel diaries? You never answered that.

[hagopn]

From all reports I have seen (including from the UNDP, which is interesting enough), economic under-development in the east is what has been behind most migration to urban centers. The Armenian "ges-ges" are very much so a great presence in all urban centres to the south-central region as well as the west. Adana is one such center. I have heard this from official and unofficial sources.

[bellthecat]

They are and have been called Hamsheanhayer due to the disctintly Hamshenite dialect that they speak.

Ho hum... that's a new one! So you are saying that one lot of people called another lot of people by a particular name because they spoke like yet another lot of people. How did the native populations of Abkhazia know what the Hemshin dialect sounded like? Do you know what a Breton dialect sounds like, or a Provence dialect, or a Langedoc dialect. I bet you don't - to you they will all just be French! What makes the Abkhazi any different, what gave them such a skill in linguistics?

 

I think you are cherry-picking your facts in order to fit then into a pre-existing concept. Until I hear a better explanation I will stick to my asumption that "Hamshenahayer" is used in Abkhazia in the same broad way that "Laz" is used in Turkey.

 

Also, the Black Sea region of Turkey is the most economically developed in Turkey after of the greater Istanbul region. And it has been like that since the 1930s and the advent of commercial tea production. It is a very wealthy area. For this reason, there has been little out migration except to Istanbul and areas near to Istanbul. The same was true in late Ottoman times - but then it was because population movement was restricted by the state. (The Adapazar Hemshinli are an exception, of course, since those settlements are very old.)

[hagopn]

Ho hum... that's a new one! So you are saying that one lot of people called another lot of people by a particular name because they spoke like yet another lot of people. How did the native populations of Abkhazia know what the Hemshin dialect sounded like? Do you know what a Breton dialect sounds like, or a Provence dialect, or a Langedoc dialect. I bet you don't - to you they will all just be French! What makes the Abkhazi any different, what gave them such a skill in linguistics?

 

I think you are cherry-picking your facts in order to fit then into a pre-existing concept. Until I hear a better explanation I will stick to my asumption that "Hamshenahayer" is used in Abkhazia in the same broad way that "Laz" is used in Turkey.

 

Also, the Black Sea region of Turkey is the most economically developed in Turkey after of the greater Istanbul region. And it has been like that since the 1930s and the advent of commercial tea production. It is a very wealthy area. For this reason, there has been little out migration except to Istanbul and areas near to Istanbul. The same was true in late Ottoman times - but then it was because population movement was restricted by the state. (The Adapazar Hemshinli are an exception, of course, since those settlements are very old.)

1. The question is: Why would I believe you more than I would believe them, especially if they corroborate other non-Turkish sources? Don't be offended, but I don't believe you. The Armenian linguists, Steve, Armenian linguists, and, yes, the Hamshen dialect is spoken by those Armenians all the way to Sochi and beyond, beyond, beyond.... You are pulling straws, Steve, pulling straws... (echo, echo....)

 

2. The Samsun region perhaps, perhaps, but not the Georgia border region, region...

[bellthecat]

1. The question is: Why would I believe you more than I would believe them, especially if they corroborate other non-Turkish sources? Don't be offended, but I don't believe you. The Armenian linguists, Steve, Armenian linguists, and, yes, the Hamshen dialect is spoken by those Armenians all the way to Sochi and beyond, beyond, beyond.... You are pulling straws, Steve, pulling straws... (echo, echo....)

 

2. The Samsun region perhaps, perhaps, but not the Georgia border region, region...

And what makes you assume that all those people, all the way to Sochi and beyond, who all speak the same dialect all came from just two little valleys in north-eastern Turkey? You may be relying on Armenian linguists. I'm relying on common sense. What you are believing doesn't sound realistic.

 

I don't know what you mean in point 2

[hagopn]

Their dialect makes me think on those lines. Do you have any other argument?

 

point 2: Samsun, yes, Trebizond, perhaps, but there is more to "pontus" than the center of the northern coast. Migration to the urban centers of the south and west is a common occurrence from ALL parts of eastern turkey.

Edited November 27, 2003 by hagopn

[Arpa]

As promised in another thread.

In that thread we were supposed to talk about Turks reconverting to Christianity, and that many of them may have been Christians(Armenian) at one time.

The following may illustrate the nostalgia some of them may be having. Pleading and begging for a nudge and encouragement.

Periodically I visit that site run by Hamshenites and once in a while something may catch my attention. Today one the correspondents who makes no secret of his Chritian Armenian Hamshenite ancestry had an item about Vardavar. You may go back up to see that one of the very few things they remember about their Armenian heritage is Vardavar.

---------

As much as I can decipher from the Turkish.

" Just as any other year, this year too Vardavar will be celebrated at Sb. Garabed and Sb. Krikor..."

Of course he is talking about churches in and around Istanbul.

He goes on explaining what Vardavar is, as well as he states that Armenians don't eat apples before the feast just as they don't eat grapes before the Feast of Astvatsatsin.

So far so good. This is what I found extremely curious. Where as we know that Vardavar is a pre-Christian feast dedicated to Anahit where during her feast the congregation would gather at the sacred river, have all kinds of fun and games, present the goddess with flowers and sacrifices, the highlight of the day would be water games, dousing each other.

 

This is what our friend in Hamshen says;

"That Vardavar is in memory of the "prophet" Noah(only moslems call Noah a prophet), that it is in memory of the great flood, hence the water games and dousing".

 

Very interesting. This is the first time I hear this said about Vardavar.

 

Note: Once again, please! If we see fit to change this post into a theological and philosphical debate, open a new topic in the appropriate categories.

Edited January 30, 2004 by Arpa

[hemsin basköylü]

barev arpa"can

inc pess es?

we miss you at our websites.we have momently very interesting discussions about hamshen, pontius and all the west -armenian.

the turkish people on the turkey can not be ignored hamshen and the ca.5 millions moslemhy now.they read about this themas.

what i said 2-3 months bevor? it is reality now,because they must read about homshetzihy and anotherhys on the west hayastan )

you must come and write on our websites )

 

inds petk e gnal )

 

........yes homshetzihy"em yes chem morraona..

 

hemsin basköylü

tigran hamam hamatunzi kostanian

[shaunt]

Arpa, have you checked out this site:

 

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hamshen

[Yervant1]

GENETIC RESEARCH EXCLUDED TURKISH ORIGIN OF HAMSHEN ARMENIANS

 

PanARMENIAN.Net

06.12.2006 13:20 GMT+04:00

 

/PanARMENIAN.Net/ The initial results of the genetic research of

Hamshen Armenians launched in 2003 have been received. As reported

by Yerkramas, the newspaper of Armenians of Russia, quoting project

director Levon Yepiskoposyan, the genetic DNA analysis taken from

Hamshen Armenians of Krasnodar and Rostov regions was carried out on

the London university college jointly with British colleagues. The

genetic investigation showed the following:

 

-Hamshen Armenians represent rather isolated territorial group,

Armenian origin of which make no doubt.

 

-The hypothesis advanced by Turkish scientists on the so-called

Turkish origin of Armenian-speaking.

 

Hamshens was completely refuted.

 

Some clarity was introduced in the problem of Hamshens' homeland. To

receive a final answer to this question the genetic history of Hamshens

is being investigated.

 

Hamshen Armenians make the majority of the Armenian population of the

Krasnodar region and some regions of Kuban and Adygea. They originate

from the region of Hamshen of Western Armenia, who settled in Kuban

after the Armenian Genocide in the Ottoman Empire. According to the

experts, some 250 thousand Armenians live in Adygea and Abkhazia. The

number of islamized Hamshen Armenians living in Turkey varies from

700 thousand to 1.5.2 million.

[kakachik77]

I recently read that pretty much all the Hemshens that settled in Southern Russia belong to the Armenian Apostolic Church, it's only the remaining ones in Turkey are Islamisized (actually that was the reason why they were NOT touched during the Genocide).

[kakachik77]

from Armenopedia

 

"There are currently 400,000 Hamshen Armenians, half of which are Muslims. Most Christian Hamshen Armenians reside in Abkhazia and the Krasnodar region of Russia."

 

 

the question is - how do we convert the other half back into their origins? Is this too late? Is this a violation of freedom of religion? And lastly - what makes one an Armenian (is it the language, religion, traditions, or just the willingness to be one irregardless of the things mentioned above).

[kakachik77]

rough analysis of Armenianness:

 

 

Christian Hamshen living in Russia

religion - Armenian Apostolic - pass

language - Hamshen dialect+Russian - semi-pass

tradition - turko-russian - fail

national consciousness - a type of Armenian - pass

 

Muslim Hamshen living in Russia

religion - fail

language - semi-pass

tradition - turko-russian - fail

national consciousness - a type of Armenian - pass

 

Muslim Hamshen living in Turkey

religion - fail

language - fail (mostly turkish these days)

tradition - turkish - fail

national consciousness - proud to be turkish citizens with armenian roots - FAIL

 

compare to

 

Jewish Armenian (an Armenian practicing Judeism who was born and grew up in Armenia)

religion - fail

language - only Armenian (fluent in Russian) - pass

tradtion - only Armenian - pass

national consciousness - Armenian - pass

[annannimusss]

If the Hamshens in Turkey join the Armenian Apostolic Church and want to become Armenian Citizens they should be allowed to become citizens and live in Armenia.

 

And about there dialect,there are many old Armenian dialects that were wiped out after the Genocide.Since they were not affected they kept that dialect.There is nothing wrong with that.

[Zartonk]

Kakachick jan, I like the definitiveness and absolute tone in you trail of their "Armenianness"...

 

As far as I am concerned, they are Armenians if they relate to the culture and are willing to contribute to the nation.

[kakachik77]

I know Zartonk, I was not trying to prove anything scientifically...but if i think about it again Yezidi Kurds living in Armenia are more Armenian to me personally, than these people today unfortunately...we tend to cling to genes which is irrelevant in my opinion.

[Arpa]

If the Hamshens in Turkey join the Armenian Apostolic Church and want to become Armenian Citizens they should be allowed to become citizens and live in Armenia.

 

And about there dialect,there are many old Armenian dialects that were wiped out after the Genocide.Since they were not affected they kept that dialect.There is nothing wrong with that.

Dear Sako,

Can you please elaborate on the above highlighted word of yours?

I may know what you mean, but are you saying that anyone but an "Apostolic" cannot be Armenian?

Yes. We know that during Ottoman times there were three kinds of Armenians. Ermeni Katolik, Ermeni Portestan and Ermeni Ermeni, the latter meaning "Apostolic Armenian".

Do you mean to say that anyone, be they Apostolic (Christian) or not, professing to be Armenian, eve if they worship another deity, who speak Armenian, sing Armenian, eat and breathe Armenian, wish nothing but well for their Armenian Homeland will still be viewed as an enemy and a second class citizen?

There may be very little we can learn from the Turks, but when they consider all of their citizens as Turks, regardless of their ethnic and religious affiliation....!

Maybe some day, when we learn that lesson we may become as big and populous as the Turks.

Dream on!

How many "Apostolic Christians" were there in Armenia during the past 80 years of Soviet regime?

My friendly advice to you- Grow up! And maybe when you do that you may help our nation to grow up as well.

 

PS. Was it you who was amazed and expressed "ignorance" at the information about the Mekhitarists?

You may learn more searching and learning about famous Armenians who may not fit your narrow definition of an "Apostolic" Armenian.

Edited December 7, 2006 by Arpa

[Zartonk]

I agree with your position kakachick. I was only joking about the way you went about expressing it.

 

One more thing: The HAYASTANyats Church was for a long time the only bonding tie for Armenians, esp. diasporans. But today, we have a state. Let's focus on unification through the Republic and stop holding on to the idea that there is and should be only one creed and breed of Armenian

[Arpa]

THE ORIGIN OF HAMSHEN ARMENIANS NOT UNDER QUESTION

 

ArmRadio.am

06.12.2006 13:26

 

The hypothesis of Turkish scholars about the Turkish origin of "

Armenian-speaking Hamshens" has been refuted. He first results

of the molecular-hereditary expertise of Hamshen Armenians are

already ready. "Yerkramas" newspaper of Russian Armenians reports

that according to Dr. Levon Yepiskoposyan, the coordinator of the

given project, the hereditary examination of DNA samples of Hamshen

Armenians has been carried out in the London University College

together with British colleagues.

 

According to Levon Yepiskoposyan's data, the examinations allow to

confirm that the Armenian origin of Hamshen Armenians is not under

question.

 

To note, Hamshen Armenians comprise the majority of the Armenian

population of Krasnodar region and Kuban. They moved to Kuban still

in mid-19th century after the Armenian Genocide in the Ottoman

Empire. According to the data of experts, about 250 thousand Hamshen

Armenians reside in Kuban and Abkhazia, while according to different

sources, 700,000 - 2 million Islamized Hamshen Armenians reside

in Turkey.

===========

Maybe some day the Armenian “Apostolic” Church will find a way to convince all the above that it is better to be an Armenian than…whatever!

Until then;

http://hyeforum.com/index.php?showtopic=7065&hl=

[zurderer]

majority of them are not forced to become muslim, they fleed from russians.(Because of their religion)

 

I should also say, They call themself as Turks. So they are turks. If you want to follow asimilated armenians, You should look at eastern anatolia.

[annannimusss]

Arpa,are you so blind to see that I was trying to make a point.There is nothing wrong with the Armenian Catholic Church,the Protestants are also find.But my point (I should have been more specific since you are having a hard time understanding) is that they need to be Christian.And to be specific should either join the Armenian Apostolic Church or the Armenian Catholic Church,not the Protestant Church,but we already discussed this in another thread. Edited December 7, 2006 by SakoPasha