The Point

[THOTH]

So very well said TB.

 

quote:

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Originally posted by Twilight Bark:

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I think our sense of affecttion and pride in our ancestors, which forms the backbone of our national consciousness, rests on two main themes: their peace-loving nature (as opposed to being empire-builders), and their unique sense of inventiveness that allowed an "old-fashioned" sense of cohesion to live side by side with an enthusiasm for embracing new "things". Conversely, I would not be pleased to see (if I could) my great-great grandchildren unable to go beyond my "inventions" or my "system of thought". I would, however, be pleased to see them remember, study and respect their ancestors.

 

What matters is the preservation of our tribal identity, not "our ways" as defined at a certain time in history. One of the strong forces in contemporary world culture is to isolate one from one's family, ancestors, and "tribe". There are many, many "tribe"s that are better dismantled and dissolved into the Big Blob. The question that you must answer convincingly is whether you think the Armenian identity is one of them.

 

For me, keeping my Armenian identity is my most effective way of thumbing my nose at all the "bully" cultures of the world.

 

Twilight Bark

 

Much of my thinking on this matter is as you describe. I wonder if it is enough though - however it may be all that is practical. Perhaps there are varrying degrees and some may be able to maintain more of the "old ways" - certainly language being a major piece of this (that I unfourtunatly lack). For without the language the culture and histroy will be - for the most part - just a fairy tale...Still i think the reactionary positions of Artur and Tigrannes are completely untenable.

[Twilight Bark]

Ah yes, the language. Each one of us should try really hard to keep it alive. I mean tooth-and-nails kind of try. The sound of Armenian in the household is in the same class with the sweet fragrance of the pastries, and the warm hug of your parents. However, in the end, if you lose that battle (i.e. your children don't speak it and can't write it), it must not mean accepting total defeat; just a "strategic withdrawal".

[sen_Vahan]

"certainly language being a major piece of this (that I unfourtunatly lack)."

 

THOTH jan, are you 99 years old? Come on, man, do not tell me that you do not have the possibility to learn Armenian!! If you really don't (???) I am reday to help you with that.

 

" For without the language the culture and histroy will be - for the most part - just a fairy tale..."

 

Absolutely agree, THOTH, let it be the first step to learn the language. You have the full understanding of the subject.

 

Vahan

[Sip]

Ok, let me tell you some examples of my individuality in order to be clear. The current CD which is in my truck's CD player has 4 songs by Harout Pamboukjian, 3 songs by Garth Brooks (very famous US Country singer for those who don't know), several Euro/techno tracks, a couple of German Rock songs (RAMSTEIN), and a few SOAD tracks (I just love that CD). I am currently a fairly active member on 2 discussion boards ... this one and www.zr2.com which is purely a mechanical/4x4/offroading board. Many of the people there are as American as you can get! I am truely enjoying my time spent in both places and definitely think it's 100% worth while (otherwise, I wouldn't do it!). I go to many offroading trips with some of these people that are extremely nice individuals. Some of the people there are probably the most friendly, enlightened, and knowledgable people I have ever met.

 

Some of my "Armenian" friends, would never consider hanging out with those people ... calling them rednecks, outsiders, whatever. They make fun of me for listening to country music and enjoying off-roading. But I also hang out with my Armenian friends going to different trips because I also find a lot of value in spending my time that way.

 

So what collective am I a part of (or in danger of becoming a part of)? The way I see it, I am defining my "individuality" as I go on, without trying to fit in a certain mold passed down from my supposed ancestors who lived in a completely different time than I.

 

Yes, I agree that I am in danger of losing my "Armenian" identity. But as I said above, I don't think I will lose my individuality or become a member of the "Borg" as you claim. So far, no one has been able to explain it to me, why is it important to keep that specific identity ... why is it so wrong to change, adapt, and go on with the times?

[Twilight Bark]

So you pick and choose what the mainstream culture throws at you. Better than some other alternatives, but nothing to do with being individualistic, unless one's reference is North Korea.

 

Good. However, I do not see anything particularly individualistic there.

 

Sorry to hear that your Armenian friends have such close minds.

 

What you described, Sip, is entirely within Armenian cultural traditions of befriending neighboring peoples and adopting new ideas from "outside". In fact it is much more in line with the historic Armenian norm than the close-mindedness your friends apparently display.

 

Keeping the identity is part of cherishing your ancestors. The reason for cherishing your ancestors is the same reason you care about the future. You may be preoccupied with writing a piece of "really neat" code, or publishing a scholarly article. But in a few short years, the code will be obsolete and forgotten (if it ever becomes relevant to begin with), the published papers will become less worthy than a roll of toilet paper, the people that praised and flattered you in social or professional contexts will disappear, and there will be silence. Unless you leave behind in your offsprings something worthwhile, such as the ability to love, to make others happy, to be deep and sensitive individuals. And unless you fulfill your role in the chain of love we call "family" or "ancestry". In the absence of such sensibilities, the only time that matters is today, the only thing that matters is to have a jolly good time when you are alive, and that is the end of it. No need to care about the past or the future. There are individuals that fall in that latter category and yet display some sort of "nationalism". That sort of "belonging" is more akin to "our football team is better than yours" sort of feeling, which has nothing to do with what I am discussing.

 

I do understand that many people will not even know what I am talking about. Then again, some others will immediately recognize the profoundness of cherishing those that came before us, and giving the best that we can to those that will follow us. When family is no longer the vehicle to do that we will have become the Borg. What has this got to do with Armenian identity? Armenians are esentially a tribe; we are all relatives; we are an extended family. When I say "azkagan", I mean "relatives", and when I say "azk" I mean nation. Some people will snub that notion as primitive. I, for one, view it as the only worthwhile reason for a distinct "national identity" to exist.

[Sip]

Twilight: I have to admit it is a quite interesting way of looking at things. After all, I am here to see and learn those perspectives otherwise, I wouldn't be here... wondering what is trully "valuable" in life. You actually hit the nail on the head with usefulness of technical papers and professional contributions especially in this field which I am in. Things become obsolete in days and months rather than in years and centuries as in other sciences! It is very exciting times for sure and it is easy to get caught up in the frenzy as I have been ... although I don't consider myself in the mainstream of anything as you claim ... but I admit that forgetting/ignoring things that have existed and matured for ages is not necessarily very smart (i.e. looking only ahead).

[Azat]

NPR a month ago had a wonderful program about this topic and if any of you are interested you can listed to it here: NPR - Endangered Languages

 

LA Times also had an article about 6 months ago about some author(I wish I remember his name) who had written a book about the fact the on average a language is lost every 14 days somewhere around the world and that over 1500 languages are spoken by 1000 or less people. There are 6800 languages spoken in the world. In US we use to have over 200 languages 100 years ago and today we have sub 100.

 

Now, if nothing gets done about this, the day will come when few(I don't know about one) languages will be the languages that are spoken throughout the world. So it is tremendously important to save languages as it so closely identifies the cultures where they are spoken. So much of the culture is tied up with the language and the language is adjusted for a specific culture like the Eskimos who have 10+ ways of saying ice.