The Point

[Sip]

I was going to say something really smart but that statement made me very hungry. I am going to eat some pickles right now ...

 

ok ... typing while munching on crunchy pickels (they are Kosher by the way)

 

I don't care much about art, poetry, history, theater, "books", tradition, and all the other artsy-fartsy stuff which is usually associated with culture. Therefore, at this point, I also really don't care about the Armenian culture ... actually, I don't really care much about any culture.

 

If I see something that I like, I look at it. If I hear music that I like, I listen to it. If I see food that I like, I eat it. I don't care if it is Armenian, Jewish, Irish, Chinese, or whatever. I have friends that will not listen to music they think is too "turkish" or "rabiz" or whatever other stupid reason. Basically, it comes down to I like what I like and I dislike what I dislike. Those things may or may not be Armenian (or anything else) in nature but I couldn't care less

 

So many people have lost their lives to preserve things that is NOT funny anymore. Religion, culture, language, traditions, nationalism, are irrelevant in my opinion!

 

Of course the above is true until some other idiot comes along and tries to force his way of life on you ... and worst of all, starts killing your family and stealing your stuff

 

[ April 01, 2002, 09:36 PM: Message edited by: Sip ]

[Harut]

well said Sip.

 

actually i used to think exactly the same way to do.

i would listen to music regardless of its origin,

i would dress the way i liked, think the way i liked, and so on...

especially my later days in Armenia and my early years in US.

 

but, then, this nostalgie of Armenianess came to me.

i started thinking and behaving somewhat in Armenian traditional way (if there is any such thing).

 

but, then, i saw that i was falling behind life. living in Armenian way in US didn't work.

 

and now i have all this mess in my head that i can't make sense of.

-----

and next time, when posting, stop talking about food. i can't cocentrate.

 

hmm, should i move my computer to kitchen, or the kitchen to my room.

[Twilight Bark]

I think our sense of affecttion and pride in our ancestors, which forms the backbone of our national consciousness, rests on two main themes: their peace-loving nature (as opposed to being empire-builders), and their unique sense of inventiveness that allowed an "old-fashioned" sense of cohesion to live side by side with an enthusiasm for embracing new "things". Conversely, I would not be pleased to see (if I could) my great-great grandchildren unable to go beyond my "inventions" or my "system of thought". I would, however, be pleased to see them remember, study and respect their ancestors.

 

What matters is the preservation of our tribal identity, not "our ways" as defined at a certain time in history. One of the strong forces in contemporary world culture is to isolate one from one's family, ancestors, and "tribe". There are many, many "tribe"s that are better dismantled and dissolved into the Big Blob. The question that you must answer convincingly is whether you think the Armenian identity is one of them.

 

For me, keeping my Armenian identity is my most effective way of thumbing my nose at all the "bully" cultures of the world.

 

Twilight Bark

[Boghos]

I completely agree. It is the same for me. We are probably one of the very few that can have, at the same time, a sense of community and a strongly developed individuality (which sometimes borders stuborness...).

[sen_Vahan]

"and next time, when posting, stop talking about food. i can't cocentrate."

 

Harut, bayz du urish demk es! hargezi!

 

" hmm, should i move my computer to kitchen, or the kitchen to my room."

 

Try to drilllllllllllll a hole to neighbor's kitchen while sitting in your room.(just kidding)

Vahan

[THOTH]

Vahan/TB

 

Alas - learning Armenian for me is likely not going to occur. Not that I do not have a desire (on a certain level) and I also understand (in a grposs sense) what it is I lose by not knowing the language (the many things). You see - i have a problem with languages - even English (note my poor spelling even of common/easy words) - if anything it is getting worse. True story - in school I took 4 yewars of French - finally made it to French 2...(even then my Frech teacher advanced me only out of pity...). When I (briefly/5 years) lived in Los Angeles (Hollywood) I lived among Armenians (besides family only time with any regular contact) - all tried to teach me words etc...all went through my ears with no/little retention...(though I am always told my pronunciation is good). So this is my problem. Perhaps with more effort I might be able to master it - but at this point I am not willing to make the effort. The only hope for me perhaps - is the possibility of living in Armenina (or such)...and it is a possibility (though not a great one). If I could - and at this point I have some desire to - the added benefit would be that my children would learn Armenian as well. So we will see. Short of that I do not think they will (soon) learn it - though they will certainly be taught who they are and will discover (I am certain) what that means (and be exposed to aspects of our culture and our "issues"). I did - basically on my own - so I am sure that they will with my encouragement. Not ideal perhaps - but thats where we stand for now...so it is up to those of you more imersed in the community to carry on the traditions...and to better the community and see that it evolves & does not stagnate & die...etc At best I am on the fringe. Besides not knowing the language I don't embrace the religion. I do participate in some commmuity activities (limited) - but aside from my brief time in LA...and perhaps on these forums) I don't have much regular exposure to Armenians (outside of family...mostly, but not all, fully assimilated).

[sen_Vahan]

Guys, do you think we should open a special topic in this forum for learning (or probably "learning") the language? Some practice - words, sentenses, phrases (even tests and exams for lazy guys!), anyone could ask questions there or make suggestions. Later we can write some small texts to improove the ability of "students". No, no, do not think that I am kidding or going to be an educator, but serious. i think there're many people in this Forum who could help with this stuff.

 

i am waiting for your responses, guys, and hope this will not be ignored. The thing is that THOTH is right and I would say without the language the culture is almost dead. it's like a beautiful flower in need of water... We can at least try.

 

Vahan

[Sip]

Then I really like this culture! I stand corrected

 

But I don't care much for paying taxes. Except for the part of getting money back which so far has happened every year. So, yes, I actually enjoy doing taxes at the "end of the year". But it is not one of those things that I identify with or something I would pass down from generation to generation as a means of keeping my identity. It's just one of those things I have to do to keep my current level of luxury (small price to pay)

 

 

Ok now I am confused. So how can one have NO style? How can one have NO culture? Are you saying it is impossible?

 

That is a tough question. Normally, I would only switch if I see a benefit in switching to his way of life ... only if his way of life is in some sense better than my way of life. The problem here is that if I don't switch, I face extermination ... I don't know what I would do Vahan jan. It is very hard for me to imagine a situation like that in this day and age where I would have no other options diplomatic or otherwise.

 

About the language thing: I know this is a very unpopular stance but I really think the whole world should just pick a single universal language and stick with it. I mean enough with all the different stuff. I don't care which language it is. I even think it should be a completely new language so no one thinks they were cheated! But never-the-less, I think it's about time to start ... (I know how much trouble it was to get the Euro going ... but we have to start at some point!)

 

oh, and it better be an easy language to learn and remember. No more strange spellings, strange grammar rules, strange words. A very simple language ... maybe even a subset of English. (Ok, start flaming me now for not picking Armenian ... but you have to admit it is a very difficult language compared to modern English).

 

Ok now to make up for my amazingly "dumb" statements above (especially on a 'hye' forum ... I think it is a great idea to have an Armenian language section. I am NEVER against learning new things and as much as possible. I would love to know as much as I can about ANYTHING. However, all I am saying is that it should be up to me to decide which language, culture, style (or lack there-of ) I want to have in life ... but of course subject to the contraints (rules, regulations, and customs) of the country I live in.

[Twilight Bark]

Well, in that case I suggest Turkish for you. It is a very structured, predictable language, almost mathematical in its structure. To really make you ecstatic, I would say that it is modular, and with a little effort can be made object oriented

 

To make your life completely self-consistent, I think we should pick one political party and stick with it, should exterminate all that confusing jumble of flora and fauna on the planet except for one animal and one plant (to be decided by a worldwide referendum) and stick with them. Not to mention one make of car and one software company and stick with them. And we should demand such simplicity for all aspects of our lives that have become so bewilderingly and unnecessarily complex and fragmented. I also propose to invest the necessary sums to develop the technology to network our brains together for the most efficient mode of communication, and eliminate the absurd archaism we call language altogether. Imagine how efficient and united we will become. Oh, I can go on about making our lives more efficient and simple, but I am getting too excited.

 

It always is up to you, Sip.

 

TB

 

P.S. Warning: Being immersed in computers for too long can put the right side of your brain into a comfortable slumber.

[sen_Vahan]

Because you are living in a CULTURE where you can feel free to do that. Thus becoming a part of that culture.

 

"Then I really like this culture! I stand corrected "

 

Exactly. We agree here.

 

... paying taxes on time (sorry for that trivial example) is also a part of the culture.

 

" But I don't care much for paying taxes. "

 

Oh, yeah, beacuse you do not care much about the culture....

 

"Except for the part of getting money back which so far has happened every

year. So, yes, I actually enjoy doing taxes at the "end of the year". "

 

i follow your typical Armenian way of thinking, and I like that!!!

 

"But it is not one of those things that I identify with or something I would pass down from generation to generation as a means of keeping my identity. It's just one of those things I have to do to keep my current level of luxury (small price to pay) "

 

Current level of luxury...... can you imagine that I cannot return the taxes for the year 2001? No luxury... (off-topic)

 

... Yes, right, the absense of the style is also a kind of style...

 

"Ok now I am confused. So how can one have NO style? "

 

I don't know, you made me think so:)

 

"How can one have NO culture?"

 

Good question!!

 

"Are you saying it is impossible?"

 

Trust me, that's exactly what i mean.

 

' About the language thing: I know this is a very unpopular stance but I really think the whole world should just pick a single universal language and stick with it."

 

Sometimes I do not realise why people try to globalise everything? Where this cosmopolitism comes from? Chem haskanum...

 

" I mean enough with all the different stuff. "

 

Yeah, I have not been in LA but now I do not even want:(

 

"I don't care which language it is. I even think it should be a completely new language so no one thinks they were cheated! But never-the-less, I think it's about time to start ... (I know how much trouble it was to get the Euro going ... but we have to start at some point!)"

 

Lets try Armenian , we will probably have a great profit!

All right, serious, I mean should we open a new section to learn Armenian?

 

"oh, and it better be an easy language to learn and remember. No more strange spellings, strange grammar rules, strange words. A very simple language ... maybe even a subset of English. (Ok, start flaming me now for not picking Armenian ... but you have to admit it is a very difficult language compared to modern English)."

 

Again, the absense of the style is also a kind of style. I cannot help think about that when I read this.

 

" Ok now to make up for my amazingly "dumb" statements above (especially on a 'hye' forum ... I think it is a great idea to have an Armenian language section. "

 

I am starting to agree with you!! And you know it is better when you agree with rather than disagree.

 

"I am NEVER against learning new things and as much as possible. "

 

Ok, there is one person that agreed with the idea. Thanks a lot!

 

" would love to know as much as I can about ANYTHING. However, all I am saying is that it should be up to me to decide which language, culture, style (or lack there-of ) I want to have in life ... but of course subject to the contraints (rules, regulations, and customs) of the country I live in."

 

Sure. Once we got an agreement in something with each other i am not going to argue any more. I'm melted. And I like your Armenian way of thinking:)

 

Vahan

[Twilight Bark]

That is an excellent idea. However, being a mediocre speaker of Western Armenian, I cannot offer good help in Eastern Armenian. And at this point in time, those starting from scratch should probably learn the "official", Eastern Armenian, rather than the Western variety that is on its way to a slow, painful death, cut off from its soil. Or we can start synthesizing a hybrid Armenian, and use the unsuspecting students as lab subjects.

 

I hope your idea takes off.

[sen_Vahan]

"That is an excellent idea. "

 

Thank you, TB!

 

"However, being a mediocre speaker of Western Armenian, I cannot offer good help in Eastern Armenian."

 

I can and many others can. I don't think that will be truely academic but that might work somehow.

 

" And at this point in time, those starting from scratch should probably learn the "official", Eastern Armenian, rather than the Western variety that is on its way to a slow, painful death, cut off from its soil."

 

I agree, it is better to start with the Easrtern Armenian.

 

"Or we can start synthesizing a hybrid Armenian, and use the unsuspecting students as lab subjects."

 

Great! That will require more job.

 

Vahan

[Sip]

I don't know much about turkish. But it definitely sounds like it has the right attributes. The only problem is that I know a whole bunch of Armenians, Greeks, Kurds, and Germans would kill themselves if that language was chosen as THE ONE! Not me though

 

Granted ... I like to simplify things to the greatest extent to be able to understand them which is not always the right thing. I know it sounds like I am saying we should have one car, one software company, one type of animal, etc as you pointed out which sound completely absurd (I agree)!

 

But that's not what I am saying. I don't see much value from one language over another. They are all basically the same in my opinon (which probably shows how little I know about languages but I don't think the average human is, or will be, a linguist)

 

I think there should be a universal language used purely for communication. Now if there are other languages for programming, for poetry, for theater, etc, that's fine. If people want to buy different sports cars, 4x4 trucks, etc that's fine. But they should all be be aware of that single common language. By the way, have you noticed that all cars are operated the same way? I see great benefit in that ... if a person can drive a car, that person can drive basically any car on the planet! The cars and trucks certainly "look" different ... but in many ways they are the same. Maybe having a steering wheel and pedals is not the best way ... but it is basically a global agreement that all car makers have and they stick to it.

 

Just imagine 10 billion people that can communicate ... directly ... without any "middle-ware". That would be really cool I think

 

So basically, I don't think Diaspora is where Armenian "culture" (language, etc etc) should be preserved. Armenian (and the associated ways of life) should be (and will be )preserved in Armenia.

 

[ April 02, 2002, 04:24 PM: Message edited by: Sip ]

[THOTH]

Seaphan - I think that you are correct - you don't understand language. I laugh when I say this - because I know only English - but it is clear to me that English cannot be used to express all things and conversly there are concepts expressable in other languages that cannot translate into English. Now try to imagine conceptualizing a complex thought without the language to do so....can you not then understand - the language we speak affects the way we think - how we think - even what we think. It is more then just some optional way to greet other people. Think about it. (perhaps even use an analogy with computer languages - can all things be (practically) programed in only one computer language? Might there not be a need for specialized "languages" or applications...etc?

[Sip]

Wait wait wait ... how can we agree on something if we both have Armenian way of thinking? I thought all Armenians disagree with each other ALL the time!

 

 

Good question. I really see things headed in that direction. It is very scary to some to lose "tribal identity" but I would trully want to see a single global identity at some point (probably it is very far in the future). I think the communication revolution which we haven't seen yet (but it's comming, believe me!) will really change things drastically.

 

Just look at what happened to computers in the past 20 years ... they only doubled in performance every 18 months and we have such amazing revolution. Well, communication and fiber optics have continued to improve with a factor of 10 in the same periods ... we still have no idea what we should expect in 50 years! It is going to be trully amazing.

[Twilight Bark]

Yes, Sip, it is called "lingua franca". The idea is as old as history. Sumerian, Hittite, Roman, Swahili, Arabic, French, Spanish, Russian, and of course English have served as lingua franca. English is now destined to become the widest-ever lingua franca of the planet. I am fully supportive of the idea. The "problem" of finding a worldwide lingua franca has already been solved: it is English. That does not mean that one cannot nurture one's ancestral language in addition to being able to use the planet's lingua franca.

 

"Should" is too strong a word. You preserve your language and the elements of the culture relevant and important to you, wherever you are. If you don't care, you don't. I want to hand over the most beautiful aspects of my ancestral culture to my offsprings. If you don't have such a desire, you don't need to. Please feel free to join the Borg collective. After all, "resistance is futile; you will be assimilated".

 

TB

[Sip]

Amazingly enough no! All current computer languages fall in the category of "context free" grammars. This means that they are all equivalent. Anything that can be done (expressed) with one language , can be done (expressed) in any other in this class (context free). ... of course some implementations put specific restrictions on things you can and cannot do, but I am talking about languages themselves (what can and cannot be expressed).

 

Now with context sensitive and more complex forms of languages (such as English, Armenian, etc) things are more complicated. To explain context sensitive ... just imagine when I say: "It's cold" ... you usually understand what I am saying since the context is usually weather. But a computer would not understand that language unless it had a very specific definition of "it". Anyway ...

 

So far I have been exposed to several human languages. I am fairly fluent in Farsi, Armenian, English, and used to be in German. I don't believe that I "think" in a particular language. But I totally agree that inability to communicate severely hinders the inability to think. Right now, I am most fluent in Enligh. I have not encountered a situation where I can express something in one of the other languages and not in the other (the only times it has happened has been due to my knowledge of the language). Maybe that shows some limits on my side but at this moment, I don't think that's the case. I think most modern languages are complex enough for most human communication needs. Maybe we can't express every single detail in our mind but I don't think that is too important.

 

[ April 02, 2002, 04:57 PM: Message edited by: Sip ]

[Sip]

.

 

I completely respect that. Not saying what you should do (I hope I was clear above). What I meant with that statement is that preserving things in Diaspora is not very easy nor likely (except in little Armenia type places) ... unless there is a huge effort made (but then you have to think what is the benefit and what is the cost). Some claim loosing "tribal identity" is an amazingly huge cost ... I don't necessarily agree.

 

It is not so much of a collective I want to join as it is having "my own" values, culture (As Vahan pointed out), etc etc. I am not saying I want to abandon individuality (completely the opposite). I am just saying that I don't personally care much for roots, tribal identity, history, where I come from, what happened hundreds of years ago, etc. I only care about what is ahead. I realize it is considered wrong to think this way according to traditional views ... but never-the-less, at the moment, I think this way!

[THOTH]

Well I do think you understand my point then - one cannot easily express everything one may want to say in a particular language. I even think this is true for computer languages - even though they are as you say context insensitive. I seem to recall that a certain language )forgot which one) was used for AI versus others. And can't certain thinks be done in Java that are not possible (or easy) in other "languages" (though I'm not sure Java is a language per se (I'm not a programmer or such in any sense). Many years ago (15+) I stated that I had no interest in learning how to talk to a computer (the gaul of the machine - I mean really...) - but I was interested in a computer that could talk to me (or some such)...so I became an eager Windows early adopter...LOL (& MAC too I guess - though less so - even though I know where the concept was originated [xerox]...etc)

 

Anyway - regardless of whether or not you believe you think in a particular language I would argue that you think in the very least in the sum of the languages (or substes thereof) that you know. I imagine that you may not be able to comprhend certain aspects of desert sand conditions without the proper Arabic (or a long detailed explanation in some other less adapted language) etc etc. I'm sure it is possile that a single language could include words to express all of these things (but as we all have different needs and uses for languages I'm not sure that it would be so efficient - as you suggest - for one to have to learn such a language. In the end I think TB has explained it best - by default English has becaome the commmon tongue...but that does not obviate the need or the reason for other languages - that also serve purposes - if only to remind us of our families and heritage...

[Sip]

Ok I think we are slowly getting to the root of the argument. I understand what you are saying Thoth. I have heard that eskimos have several different words for ice. I fully appreciate "local" needs for language variations due to environment, specific ways of life, etc. The AI language you are thinking of is LISP which can (and is) programmed in C (the compiler)!!! Yes, a specific language may have a certain word to describe a complex situation that would require pages to explain in the other language (so there is definitely the efficiency/practicality argument).

 

However, I think the argument I am trying to make is that "... also serve purposes - if only to remind us of our families and heritage ...": I don't see much value in that at the moment. Why do I have to remind myself of my families and heritage? Isn't it just enough to have the basic morals and values that are enough to lead a meaningful life? Have I become too Americanized, or computerized? Maybe

[Harut]

demk em te demk chem, chgitem. bayts stamoqss hastat urish ktor a.

 

i tried to dril, and ended up somewhere else.

[Guest Fadi]

quote:

---

Have I become too Americanized, or computerized?

---

I always tough these two words ment the same thing.

[Twilight Bark]

Both. How do you say "hook, line and sinkers" in C++ ?

[Twilight Bark]

Once you are stripped of your ancestral, familial connection, you are always one push away from becoming a drone in "the collective". I would like to invite you to observe your "individuality" and see how much of it is really "yours", and how much of it is actually worthwhile. At this stage, resisting assimilation is the "individualistic" route, not the other way around. There is much more analysis to be done on this subject, but I already sank much more time in this discussion than I am entitled to.

Best,

TB

[sen_Vahan]

"I don't care much about art, poetry, history, theater, "books", tradition, and all the other artsy-fartsy stuff which is usually associated with culture. "

 

Because you are living in a CULTURE where you can feel free to do that. Thus becoming a part of that culture.

 

"Therefore, at this point, I also really don't care about the Armenian culture ... actually, I don't really care much about any culture. "

 

paying taxes on time (sorry for that trivial example) is also a part of the culture.

 

"If I see something that I like, I look at it. If I hear music that I like, I listen to it. If I see food that I like, I eat it. I don't care if it is Armenian, Jewish, Irish, Chinese, or whatever. I have friends that will not listen to music they think is too "turkish" or "rabiz" or whatever other stupid reason. Basically, it comes down to I like what I like and I dislike what I dislike.

 

Yes, right, the absense of the style is also a kind of style...

 

So many people have lost their lives to preserve things that is NOT funny anymore. Religion, culture, language, traditions, nationalism, are irrelevant in my opinion!

 

"Of course the above is true until some other idiot comes along and tries to force his way of life on you ... and worst of all, starts killing your family and stealing your stuff "

 

What if he just says to accept his way of life otherwise everything will be exterminated (but in a very diplomatic way) ?Will you switch?

 

Vahan