The Point

[Twilight Bark]

What is the point of being/remaining Armenian? It would be interesting to have a cross-section of perspectives. And, how would you explain your perspective to a young child? To a non-Armenian?

[nellie]

I remain Armenian, because it is who I am. Good or bad, perfect or flawed, it has been embedded in my nature. Armenian is how I think, Armenian is how I believe, how I behave, how I speak. Voch mi lezu chi aynkan harazad inchkan harazad-e im mayreni lezun. I take pride in my background, without it I am lost. At the same time, I work on improving all that I can, all that I see wrong.

[Twilight Bark]

Dear Harut and Nellie,

 

You provide good answers that I can relate to. But how do you explain it to a young child born in the diaspora? There is a choice to be made by him/her at some point, regarding the "dominant" identity. Should one regard oneself as American/French/Whatever first, and say "oh yeah, my parents are Armenian", or say "I am Armenian, and I am a good citizen of Whateveria"? It is easy for someone born "Armenian". Not so obvious for a child growing in a powerful, "cool" culture, such as the United States or France.

 

So, how do you explain it to a child? Or can you? That is, is there more to it than being a collection of the things we are used to as we grow up?

 

[ December 03, 2001: Message edited by: Twilight Bark ]

[khodja]

It would not be so difficult for parents to instill Armenian culture if it was not so "uncool. Greeks and even Israelis are similar to us, but their youth find a culture that is "cool" yet ethnic. Why do we remain such an old fuddy-duddy "uncool" culture?

[Harut]

what part of our culture seems so "uncool" to you???
even if it is "uncool", you have all the rights to modify to fit your needs.
for your information, it's a dead culture.

btw, i think what makes it hard is not our culture but our dumb habit of copying others.

[ December 03, 2001: Message edited by: Harut ]

[Harut]

thank you very much.

[Harut]

of course i would like every Diasporan Armenian to say: "I am Armenian, and I am a good citizen of Whateveria"

i think if an "ex-Armenian" is trying to teach his/her child that being Armenian is important then it's not going to do any good to the child.
if you want your child to stay Armenian, first of all, you must act like an Armenian.
if you speek to your kid in English then don't expect him/her to answer you in Armenian and then complain that he/she doesn't speek Armenian. as simple as that.

but of course being Armenian in Diaspora does not mean completely ignoring or not accepting that country's culture. if fact, in an heterogenous country like US, it is so easy to merge Armenian culture with the existing one.

[ December 03, 2001: Message edited by: Harut ]

[Twilight Bark]

From Harut And Nellie I get the opinion that the only way for a child to learn being an Armenian is by "learning by doing". I agree. However, I also want to see if there are theoretical reasons for wanting to stay Armenian. Compelling traits that are luring, regardless of whether the environment is Armenian. Can we come up with an abstraction of Armenian traits that are unique and positive (I don't mind discussing the negative ones, but that is a different thread ) ?

 

Hagarag thinks that the Armenian culture is uncool. I do not think that it is uncool. However, I can see that many people would perceive it as such. Perceived "cool"ness is very much correleated with the perceived strength. Make Armenia and Armenians strong (or at least look strong), and it will be "cool". It is a bit more complicated than that; but not by much. In any case, it would be very useful to probe into Hagarag's reasons without being judgemental. There may valuable lessons there.

 

[ December 03, 2001: Message edited by: Twilight Bark ]

[khodja]

Twilight Bark,

 

In 1993 a famous Academy Award-winning American actress went to Armenia during a time that there was no heat. She did not visit in the warmer months as many of us did. She froze with the other there to show her solidarity. We flock to a Greek-American, Diamanda Galas, who has many similar traits ot the aforementioned actress. Yet the first actress mentioned is just "too cool" to be an Armenian. Problem is, she is 1/2 Armenian and was there when she was needed most. Our culture is just too "sick" to understand this.

[Twilight Bark]

Let me give a few possibilities; please pick one (or more) or add a new one to the list of possible perspectives.

 

1. Being an Armenian is like being a member of an extended family. One should not and cannot deny one's family.

 

2. Armenian culture is a singularly beautiful and peaceful one. We need to preserve it because it deserves to.

 

3. Armenians are just superior to others, so why give up membership in such an elite club?

 

4. Remaining Armenian? Who says I've been trying? Give me a new identity and I'll take it gladly; preferably North American or Western European please.

[Harut]

i enjoy being Armenian: i like the good things about it and will try to improve the bad things.

and who said i'm trying to stay Armenian, it just happens naturally.

[Twilight Bark]

Yes Harut jan, we are. And that is better. "Theorists" would be a bad audience to direct such questions, as they would not be representative. For example, Armenians have pluralistic and individualistic instincts. Often they are attracted to libertarian schools of thought. But they would usually not bother defining their collective and coherent intellectual traits coherently, or theorize about them. In fact, Armenians are generally by nature not "theorists". How about that for a "theory".

But we can observe ourselves and come up with abstractions of how we feel, how we think, and how we act. I would not want to name our traits necessarily, as I think they are probably distinct enough to resist being described by off-the-shelf vocabulary of western thought. Let me continue along the lines of the example I gave above. I think Armenians do not make good "leader"s, but they do not like being led either. And they do best in small operations. I don't know what to call this, but I think it's there. The specific flavor of this thread though is: which of these distinct cultural traits make their preservation worthwhile, on their own merits, independent of whether we are used to them or not? Any thoughts anyone?

[Twilight Bark]

Yes I remember clearly Cher's trip to Armenia. What I recollect though is that she somehow felt that she had to go there, and yet was standoffish in terms of interacting with the people there; sort of "afraid to touch" kind of feeling. Anyway, it was definitely a much more active recognition of her roots than many other famous "Armenians".

Armenian identity is akin to being a close-knit family, with all the positive and negative implications. Armenian culture values ancestral connectedness, and rejects nation-building by indoctrination. The "indoctrinated" jingoism you may hear from some Armenians is not the glue holding Armenians together; it's just a nuiscance. I don't agree that Cher would be regarded as "too cool" by Armenians. I suspect if she settled into Armenia, she would be revered as a demi-goddess.

[Harut]

sorry. it's NOT a dead culture.

[Harut]

TB jan, we are not theorists here. we are just simple people.

[nellie]

Dear Twilight Bark,
this is yet another tough responsibility laid upon parents, to pass on their culture and identity to their children. However, when you really think about it, it's not that tough afterall. Although many people I know of have lost the Armenian culture, there are certain things that have kept me Armenian. For example, Armenian has been the only language spoken in my home, my father always said, learn English, learn it well, but use it only outside of the home. Another thing, I grew watching the Armenian channels on t.v. True, most of the time, especially during the early 90s, these programmings sucked, but nevertheless, it helped me tremendously in maintaining the language, learning the culture, learning Armenian history, news from Armenia, etc. My parents have a huge library filled with Armenian novels and books and biographies, often they had to force me to read these, but now I'm happy that they did. They taught me about famous Armenian artists, and writers, etc. If you devote yourself to being "Armenian", so will your children.

[nellie]

Very unfortunate for you to say this. And i have to say, anybody who says the Armenian culture is "uncool", must not know much about it.
Look into Armenian history, what's so uncool about it? look it all we've contributed to art, music, literature, sports, dance, theatre, poetry, and much more.
true, there's been times when i've felt embarassed to say that i'm Armenian, due to unfortunate situations that have arisen because of certain stupid people. but then i've looked around me, you can find stupid individuals in every nationality, there are lots more to be proud of.
our culture may seem "uncool" to you, but whenever I tell stories from Armenian history or culture, my non-Armenian friends are astonished.

[nellie]

Dear Twilight Bark,
the Armenian culture has many compelling traits unforseen by any other race or ethnicity. Take our dance, for example. have you ever seen any other cultural dance resembling ours? unenk shalakho, bert, hayozz aghjikneri naz parer. Enroll your child to an armenian dance group, see how much they like it.
sovoretsru zavakit artasanel. no other culture has the art of poetry reading like we do.
when your child comes home from school and tells you about an american war hero, tell him/her about David of Sassoon, about Andranik *****.
these and many more to come, too much to tell. make your child feel proud to be an Armenian.

[nellie]

One thing I forgot to mention, Twilight Bark, in answer for your question about positive armenian traits, is family in the Armenian household. The biggest reason why i'm proud to be an armenian, is becuase of the strong connection and attachment I have not only to my immediate family, but also to extended family. Grandpas and grandmas, aunts and uncles, all take part in my everyday life. this is surprising to non-armenians, who are used to being kicked out of the house at age 18, remembering their family only during the holidays, if even this. This connectedness to our families and to each other, is what keeps us unique.

[Twilight Bark]

The warmth of family life. That is probably the most compelling one. Even the warmest, most caring parents of Northern/Western European background tend to value "independence" (both theirs and their offsprings' after the latter turned 18 or so) much more than the emotional interdependence traditional Armenian culture cherishes.

So we don't produce many adventurers. We are not driven to climb Mount Everest. We don't try to reach the South Pole for the heck of it. But we don't use psychiatrists as our main human contact and outlet either.

I'll take the warm, big family.

[khodja]

Twilight Bark,

 

When Cher went to Armenia, it was on a humanitarian mission. She went because one of her close associates, a young Armenian woman, asked her to. Here we see your blinders on, T.B. Cher had a unusual relationship with her father and his family. She does not have any contact with her cousins on her father's side. When she went to Armenia she was in shock by the fact that so many people looked like her. The culture of Armenian-Americans is alien to her, so the culture of the ROA would be even more so. The culture of the ROA is alien even to most Turka-Hyes. As a contemporry of Cher, I can state that the indoctrination we were given in the 1950's about the Soviet Union is not easy to overcome. Surely, you can see that the conservative Armenian burghers of Grosse Point Farms, Manhasset or even the country club area of Glendale are a far cry from the Hollywood glitterati. I am immersed in Armenian history and yet I felt myself to be very different when in Armenia. Now look at one who has had almost no contact with Armenians. You are viewing this episode from your limited perspective. You have not lived outside for a good portion of your life, as have I. For a good part of my life, I had little awareness that I was Armenian. It was not part of my reality. This is where Cher is. Do not expect her to feel comfortable with the populace of the ROA.

[Twilight Bark]

quote

Here we see your blinders on, T.B.

 

What did I say to deserve that? I know about Cher's circumstances, and I thought I made it clear that I appreciated her trying to connect with her homeland. Knowing her circumstances, no one would be surprised to see that she felt a bit out of place. But she did it anyway. Good for her.

 

quote

You are viewing this episode from your limited perspective.

 

My perspective may be limited. But that has nothing to do with my perception of Cher, which happens to coincide with yours. I don't know what the problem is. As an aside, you know next to nothing about me; so it is futile at best and counterproductive in general to pontificate about my perspective and its limits.

 

quote

Do not expect her to feel comfortable with the populace of the ROA.

 

I didn't say I expected her to feel comfortable. Relax Hagarag, we actually agree.

[Boghos]

Dear TB,

 

I think that there are at least two ways of looking at this:

 

- on a short term basis this question of "being Armenian" seems to exist in the Diaspora context. It is reflected on which church you attend, charities you support, what you read, language spoken at home, and the like.

- on a longer term basis I think the Diaspora will plainly disappear, slowly but it will disappear. We have seen this happen before, and we will (actually we won't but that's just a figure of speech). Look at Poland or Hungary, the old Armenian community in the Netherlands, the clearly dying community of Brazil, and the list goes on and on. In some countries this process have been retarded because of conditions cot conductive to integration such as in Syria, albeit the fact that many Armenian catholics having been completely integrated into the Syrian catholic church, Iran, Iraq (or what is left of Armenians there), Egypt, generally speaking Muslim countries.

 

Of course, anybody can call himself an Armenian, and from time to time we see the resurgence of Armenianess, or the rediscovery of roots, motivated by collective or individual phenomenae.

 

There is not point in being Armenian or remaining Armenian, in spite of the fact that we can argue from here to eternity on the rational basis for either case. This is not in the realm of rational thought, it is much more lnked to emotions and your surroundings. But if you really want to remain Armenian you have to repatriate, short of that it is guranteed that in a few generations very little will be left of your Armenianess.

[Twilight Bark]

Dear Boghos,

 

I agree with you entirely. When I said "the point", I did not mean it in the "rational" sense, although one can take the viewpoint that our emotional and spiritual needs are just as real as any "physical" needs, and therefore compatible with "rational" choices. For example, if one's primary emotional need is "fitting in" assimilation into the larger society is the "rational" choice. On the other hand, the desire for a deeper spiritual life may dictate another "rational" choice. I am simply attempting to construct the menu of choices that "remaining Armenian" provides. The final goal is to be able to say "if you want x, y or z, preserving your Armenian identity will do that best". Such a "rational" approach to such matters is itself rather uncharacteristic for the "instinctive" Armenian psyche, but we evolve

 

As for relocation to Armenia. I think it should be highlighted, underlined, and printed in large, bold fonts on a constant basis . If preserving the Armenianness of your children and grandchildren (and son on ..) is of paramount importance, settling in Armenia is the only way to accomplish that. However, it is usually more complicated than simply buying a one-way plane ticket . Such a move should stop being equivalent to professional suicide and the extinguishing of any other dreams one may entertain, or to plain physical hardship. And unless we somehow get a big jolt of economic development it looks set to remain that way for some time. Anyway, we seem to be starting a new thread here.

 

[ December 05, 2001: Message edited by: Twilight Bark ]

[Boghos]

Dear TB,

Indeed the issue of relocation surfaces back once in a while. It is quite hard to argue for relocating to Armenian when the Armenians in Armenia are themselves leaving.

However if one looks for example at the experience of Israel, it is not an uncommon ocurrence to see emigrés out of Israel, or people that repatriated and then left once again. The experience of settling into another country is, however one is attached to his heritage, a very difficult one. In the Armenian case there is the relatively recent traumatic experience of the repatriations after the Second World War.

I do not want to make this an immigrate not-immigrate type discussion. First of because it is boring, and second because usually it develops into who is a better Armenian shouting match (of course the "better" Armenians will never immigrate).