The Point

[nellie]

Not true, Boghos, I disagree.
Perfect example is of that Iranian Armenians, who have been living in Iran for over 5 centuries. I have friends that recently moved to the U.S. from Iran, they speak fluent Armenian, and believe it or not have held on to their roots, unfortunately even more so (sometimes) then the rest of my friends that I left behind in Armenia. If your dedicated to holding on to your heritage, it can be accomplished. No body said, however, that it would be an easy task.

[Twilight Bark]

You won't get a shouting match from me .
I would characterize the issue as being boring by way of being depressing. Anyway, you are right in implying that we all know pretty much what the issues and the challenges involved are, and that there is no compelling need to re-iterate.

[khodja]

Boghos,

 

Who is afraid of Tashnags? I've changed my spots to join them. It is the Ramgavars who will scheme to starve me.

[nellie]

It would be beautiful if all Armenians could repatriate. Unfortunately, circumstances in Armenia don't make this an easy decision. However, I hope one day (most likely not our time), we will have a strong and healthy nation which will not be so difficult to live in, and then maybe we can repatriate. In the mean time, i believe Armenians in the Diaspara are doing a tremendous job.

[khodja]

Twilight Bark,

 

Just a comment. Isn't it sad that persons such as yourself and I feel that anonymity is essential. I, for one, fear not only Turks such as the Grey Wolves, but also many of my fellow Armenians. It is no secret that in the Armenian community anyone who does not follow the traditional ine will be starved or perhaps worse. You just have to look at the fate of Baliozian or Poghosyan to realize that the treat comes not only from radical Turks but also Armenians. Add to these Palestinians who would readily kill any pro-Israeli Armenian and you will see why anonymity is essential.

[Twilight Bark]

Dear Nellie,

I think what Boghos is saying is not that we shouldn't try. The point he is raising is that over the long term it is not realistic to expect that our descendants (say, five generations down the road) to be recognizably Armenian when they are raised generation after generation in an environment that constantly erodes their Armenianness. And that prospect makes me uncomfortable (on the other hand, your optimism gives me some hope.)

Wait long enough, and a diasporan community disappears unless there are special circumstances. It is not clear that most diasporan communities have those "special circumstances". If "Armenianness" were a "religion", it would have an advantage, but it is not; at least not in the usual sense. Anybody volunteering for the role of a prophet?

[Boghos]

Dear hagarag,

 

I never feared Armenians, I mean physically as you seem to imply. They just sound brave when they shout "getseh blah, blah" but most of the time, if not all the time it is just a childish impulse, nothing else.

 

But on another note: be careful, maybe there is a tashnak under your bed .

[Aaron]

The question of armenian identity in the diaspora has risen many times in this forum. Never has an answer or clear description of the situation been given by any member. No one knows how many armenians there are in such-such community and what are the stats on those who feel armenian, those who participate in armenian organizations, teach armenian to their children, etc. I will wright about the preservation of the diaspora because the subject discussed is closely related to it. Some of you may say " participation does not reflect my feelings towards armenia, i can be a very good armenian without necessarily getting involved in the community" true, and many, as a matter of fact the majority, do think like this. The situation described is a luxury armenians can not afford if willing to stay armenian, not getting involved is allowed for nations that are on their soil but definitely not for us. As boghos said the diaspora will dissapear some day which leads to the same conclusion that one needs to be on a land belonging to him in order to evolve as a "citizen" of that land. Yes, you might think your safe against assimilation, but what about your children and their children... I don't know about boghos but i believe that diaspora's final hour can be extended by having more efficient organizations (other than church) or most importantly participation and dedication from armenians around the world. I firmly believe that no matter the billions $$ and efforts spend, a nation can not suvive if not on a territory (physically) belonging to him. bottom of the line, and it might sound harsh, we should have never lost western Armenia. lessons for the future: lets try not to lose karabagh.

And also, whatever that conversation was about cool or uncool culture i'll reply tomorrow. meanwhile I'm waiting for answers, comments and insults

talk to you tomorrow

 

Excuse me if i deviated from the topic

 

:happy:

[Harut]

the point is that no metter what you are, Armenian or non-Armenian, no metter how long you live, 20 years or 89, no metter who you are, a good guy or bad, you and your entire life are just a tiny fruction of history.

[Twilight Bark]

Yes, that's what is scary. So it's not enough to take care of things here and now. It's important to set up a path so that we have a reasonable level of confidence in the general direction that our descendents are likely to take. Even though we are repeatedly told that a good and civilized nation is not based on ancestry, I still feel that that is the only reason for a nation to exist. Absent ancestral ties, I'd rather directly belong to the larger hodge-podge of a mess known collectively as "humanity", without any intermediate level of "belonging". Even if you gave me all the "niceties" of being an Armenian, but made me into, say, a southern Italian, I would still want to be an Armenian. The only "rational" explanation I have for this is the emotional ties one has to an extended family; because I know that I would never feel that way toward a group defined by the "modern" definition of a "nation" (i.e. common ancestry is optional, and preferably irrelevant; everyone that happens to fall within a boundary formed by historical/military forces are supposed to be a "nation). The term "extended family" crops up whenever I think of my relationship to the larger community of Armenians. Call me tribal.

[Harut]

yes, our lives are too short to make any difference to anything individually.

therefore one should choose one of these two paths in his/her life.

1. be a part of the long chane of humanity who tries to achieve something throughout our history, from the past to the future.

2. be somebody who doesn't care much about it and enjoys his/her life without giving a single thought to how to help humans in general.

 

these are only my suggestions. what you choose is up to you and your "khighj".

[dragon]

Is there possiblity to balance both lifestyle Harutik?

 

I myself trying to find the ''vosgya michin''

[dragon]

Not for me

[Harut]

sure, there are many ways of balancing them. for example,

you live the first half of your life with of the lifestyles, and the second half with the other one.

 

but the problem is that people think the first half is up to 89 years.

[Harut]

is this the first sign of my "Americanism" or what?

 

my thought are starting to flip upside down.

 

while before i used to think that preserving Armenian culture as it is was the correct thing to do, now i think that there is no point of doing it in diaspora.

 

why should one be attachted to something that is not really controlled by them.

Armenian culture is born in Armenia. and as i see, most people there do nothing to keep the traditionalism of it. in fact more people tand to adopt foreign ideas and traditions.

[nellie]

couldn't agree with you more Harut. This is exactly what I've been trying to get across to certain people on the forum (let's not mention any names), who believe that it is only Spyurkahays who are assimilating. Armenia is changing itself, people there are changing. last time i was there, I was surprised at how "westernized" armenians are over there. whether it is the way they dress, the music they listen to, their mentality, or just about anything else.

[Hyeflyer]

I believe it is social evolution and it isnt just happening in Armenia.It seems to be pretty much a world wide thing.Every one wants a big mack or kfc.And the literary feild is helping in the social evolution.

[Twilight Bark]

Harutig,

 

"Preserving" the culture "as it is" is never the right thing to do. A "preserved culture" will be as alive as a pickled cucumber. What is more relevant is the preservation of identity, an emotional tie to ancestors, and a sense of extended family of Armenians. As to why one should preserve an Armenian identity, I think it is a legitimate question to ask in the age of globalization and homogenization. I have my personal perspective that I have refrained from fully disclosing so far.

 

In fact, being open to foreign ideas, inventions, and trends is very Armenian. For example, in Ottoman Constantinople, Armenians were the clear champions of avant-garde in adopting the new ways of Europe. Armenians still are very open to foreign influences, but have completely lost their sense of leadership in forming the trends or spotting them early. The point to worry about is whether we are creating new culture or just consuming it. The Genocide stopped the diasporan culture creation dead (!) in its tracks. Armenia proper has been preoccupied with basic survival after independence to produce anything. I will stop before I get depressed more. Anyway, the focus should be on the preservation of identity and cultural creativity. You have the right ideas. Keep thinking and reflecting.

Later,

TB

[Twilight Bark]

I agree. But I think the word "assimilate" has a stronger meaning than adopting western ways or some other forms of cultural evolution. An assimilated Armenian would basically say "my parents are/were Armenian, and I am American/French/Russian/British/etc.". The Armenians in Armenia cannot assimilate even if they wanted to. The diasporan Armenians on the other hand have to fight a constant, uphill battle against assimilation. They must adapt regardless of whether they assimilate. Only the most steadfast of the Armenians in the diaspora resist the incredibly strong current pushing them towards assimilation and away from mere adaptation.

 

[ March 02, 2002, 06:42 PM: Message edited by: Twilight Bark ]

[Twilight Bark]

I don't know if it is a sign of "Americanism" or not, but it is surely a sign of an active mind. Keep at it.

TB

 

[ March 02, 2002, 06:46 PM: Message edited by: Twilight Bark ]

[Edit]

Dear TB,

Are trying to say you don't like to be Armenian?

If yes,then I feel really sorry for you but if you just wanted to discuss this topic,then I may say it's a really good topic to discuss.

 

Sorry for my poor English,I am an exchange student:)

[Harut]

what did they exchange you for?

 

sorry, i'm just teasing you.

 

did i say welcome to you?

welcome!

[Twilight Bark]

Dear Edita,

While being an Armenian is a pretty hard full-time job by itself, and often a pain-in-the-neck, I would not want to be anything else. Even if you gave me all the niceties of "being an Armenian" except for the identity, I would still want to keep my Armenian identity. If you kindly go through the trouble of reading the posts and the threads in which they are written in their entirety, you can perhaps get at the meaning of what's being said. If you still cannot make out the meaning clearly, then perhaps you could try to read posts by the person (inthis case, me) in other threads in order to put a context to otherwise ambiguous statements. I want to believe that you had not yet gone through these avenues when you came to your conclusion about my potentially sorry state. After you show the proper "due diligence", I would be happy to entertain your informed questions.

Best wishes,

Twilight Bark

[Edit]

what did they exchange you for?

 

sorry, i'm just teasing you.

 

did i say welcome to you?

welcome!

 

--------------------

BA?!?!

 

Harut jan,yes el chgitem` inch en gtel mejs:))))

Thanks for welcoming me:))

 

__________________________________________________

DEAR TB,I am sorry,maybe I was wrong....

(Actually I don't understand many of the words that you wrote:)

[MosJan]

Edita jan Barov es yekel / zga qez inchpes dzer tan@