Bizarre

[Twilight Bark]

Dear Hagarag,

 

Please stick to the issue at hand. Loyalty to sincere friends is sacrosanct even for the slickest of the smnooth operators, if they want to ensure success beyond the shortest of terms. It has to do with credibility. The kind of stupidity displayed by ANCA in that election is a regular, and amusing, practice in American voting habits: "Vote for the sure winner; don't let your vote go to waste." Really now.

[gamavor]

Arpa,

 

Before kissing anybody’s hand I want to see detailed report of the expenditure of the US aid in Armenia. I want to know how many new jobs are opened, how many new factories are build with US aid, how the infrastructure is improved, how many miles of freeways are build, how the civil society functioning is bettered, how many new schools are opened, etc. etc..

Also I want to see Armenian lobbying groups annual budgets. I want to know how much is the aggregated amount of US tax paid by Armenian business’s in US, and how much is the amount of the US income tax paid by people from Armenian origin, - the figure I’m told is around 1 million taxpayers. I know that only Masco company has billions of dollars turnover and I wonder how much would be the loss for the US tax collection if these businesses are moved to “tax heavens” territories.

I want to compare this amounts with US aid allocated to other countries and their respective contributions in form of US taxes paid to the US Government.

 

Even without knowing those figures I can tell you that Azerbaidjan gets little bit less than what Armenia gets in US aid, knowing very well the wealth of this country and the few Azeri tax payers in US.

Same goes for Turkey. Same goes for every other East European country in transition, but only Armenians should kiss someone’s hand.

 

NO PASARAN!

[Twilight Bark]

Well, if you put it that way.

We disagree much less than you think we do.

 

The issue is not Armenia, but Armenians. And the reason why anti-Armenian attitudes are tolerable is precisely because the Armenian profile is nearly non-existent in the mainstream culture. I was not talking about Joe Sixpack having any opinion on the matter, other than grouping Armenians in the "collateral damage material" category. And that is precisely the problem. There certainly exists, where it matters (let's euphemistically call it the "State Department"), an anti-Armenian bias. It exists in the heads of a tiny number of people that matter. Not because Armenians are too powerful in absolute terms, or that they are of relevance to much of anything. But because of two main reasons. First, they are a perennial nuiscance, buying their way into the political process, when their collective importance does not justify it. This is the "negative" motivator of the anti-Armenianism. Second, and this is perhaps more important, they are expendable (i.e. can be "sacrificed", not that it is much of sacrifice for "them") for reasons to which you alluded. They can be used as a punching bag to show lack of religious bias in foreign policy, with little consequence. They can be used as a punching bag to complain about "ethnic lobbies", without the writer being exiled to Alaska as a result. I am sure I missed a few of our multipurpose qualities, but you get the idea.

 

You give a ridiculous amount of credit and benefit of the doubt to the urban peasants at the "State Department".

 

Armenia, in an ideal world, stands for the opportunity for Armenians to realize their biggest dreams without having to sacrifice their or their descendants' identity and heritage. It stands for having our cake and eat it too. In the real world, it stands for little more than a symbol for the diasporans. I don't know if it represents anything more than "what is familiar" to its residents. I think eveyone on the forum agrees that things must change for the better. We are real geniuses to see that, aren't we?

 

You were doing alright until you constructed this caricature of a straw-man argument. I am sure you can find suitably stupid Armenians and tie them to a chair in front of you so that you can have a lopsided debate. Unfortunately such an activity is affably called by another name, and you know what that is.

[khodja]

Although my family are closely tied to both the AAA and Echmiadzin, I really admire ANCA, and am disgusted with the AAA. For years AAA ignored the only Armenian in the US Congress solely because she was a Democrat. This 1/2 Armenian got little respect from them. When a 1/4 Armenian Republican was elected, they lavished much praise upon him. Lately they appointed a super-partisan Republican as Executive Director, who left the post shortly before this latest debacle.

 

Our community ignores the most famous Armenian artist in the world and puts so many has-been artists on a pedestal. The greatest Armenian fighters for human freedoms are ignored by thosewho run the AAA.

 

Thank God for ANCA. All the AAA knows how to do is to schedule society balls at the Pierre and Bevely Hilton.

[gamavor]

Anti-Armenianism is tolerable because Armenians are *******s (me included, from time to time). That's why?

 

Askan hedamunatzatz azg yenk, vor hosk chunim.

Abush, avanak joghovurt. Especially idiot American-Armenians!!!!

Ais e iskagan batchar@ tzulitian!

[564312]

Gamavor I have no idea what kind of aid if any gets to Armenians in Armenia, ete inch vor ognutyun trvum e Amerikaic aveli shut ugigh gnum e pashtonyaneri ****er@. From my last year visit to Armenia all I can say is that US Embassy in Yerevan is striving as a business $100.00 USD to apply for an interview. Poor Armenians, you must see the line-ups everyday and they all get rejected and still keep going back. Yes there is some US and foreign private companies investing in Armenia if you want to consider it an “aid” I suppose. And there are also few Armenian investors (this one is great). Considering that Japanese own the Cognac Factory, Greeks own the Telecommunication and Energy is given to Russians, as an exchange for the money Armenia owed it sounds more like Armenia’s aid to US.

 

Armenian terrorism? What did Armenia terrorize exactly? Ohh Yes before US message the ugly Pakistani president called Armenia a terrorist country proclaiming that Artsax must be given back to Azerbaijan. And now US. Who needs their sorry? Arden kar@ kcel en Right now in the back of many American minds who have never heard about Armenia before Armenians will be associated with Terrorism.

Muslims got what they wanted they have slapped their enemy on the face and in the meantime turned the whole world to their direction. Being the most powerful country in the world US will do anything to stay in that power as long as the time will stretch I don't blame them absolute power corrupts absolutely.

This is a matter that everyone knows very well, Armenia is a small speck of dust to US they won’t jeopardize their profit for us let alone recognize our issues. Turkey matters to US; Azerbaijan is one juicy and oily meal for them. And Right now Azerbaijan is more threat to Armenia then Turkey, they are the ones that 15 years ago repeated Armenian Genocide and until now have not satisfied their thirst.

 

Who knows what is going on behind closed doors. If some country considers Armenia it is only because of their gain. France recognized because of the huge profit they receive from Armenian Diaspora, US changed their message because for the same reason or did they? They know very well that Armenia has good trade relations with Iran in their mind Armenia is an evil doer. . In one hand Russia protects Armenia because it is scared for its own borders knowing very well that there is such thing as Musulmanakan miacum, on the other hand does nothing to protect hundreds of thousands of Armenians being persecuted in Russia by skinhead Russian hillbillies. Paroniani Pepon bun Hayastani macin e “GNA PEPO GEDIN@ LZI, OV IS DUN, INCH IS DUN, INCH MARDAHESAB UNIS DUN”

[gamavor]

Swords out!!!...by Khachaturian I mean.

[Arpa]

There are many people who would love to have Armenians listed as terrirists, but two in particular, who will remain unnamed. Only so much that they are both MiddleEstern. They would love it for Armenia to fall out of favor, and there may be those in Washington who are too willing to oblige. One way it can be done is to stress on the fact that Armenian's biggest trade and cultural partner is... yes, a "terrosist state"... Iran.

Guilt by association?

The world would such a better and peaceful place without those two!!!

[Azat]

Dear 564312, you may read how much US government gives Armenian in Aid per year here:

http://www.usaid.gov/am/funding.html

 

FYI: $76 million last year alone.

 

Ararat Cognac (more accurately Yerevan Brandy) Company is owned by a French company. Pernod Ricard LLC.

[khodja]

Vierra compounds the damage. In an article in the LA Times an INS official states that the listing of Armenia was NOT a mistake, but they are no longer included. Therefore, Armenia IS a terroritst nation, BUT the Armenian-Americans are TOO powerful a political force. Next step, there was NO Armenian Genocide, but we must recognize it because the Armenian-Americans are too powerful a political force. WHAT BULLSHIT is the Bush Adminstration handing us?

[MJ]

Dear TB,

 

I don't know what you were saying above, but whoever is interested in whatever debates, I may propose you holding their hand and taking them to their high school debate club.

[Twilight Bark]

Oh no. I avoid like the plague people who would say things like:

 

"whatever it is, it is just someone else’s fault. They just don't like us because we are too smart."

 

or

 

"these Americans may be too stupid to understand how important we are. They may not even know that we are the first Christian nation in history and they don't understand that they owe us big time for it. They haven't even sent us their payments, yet, for quite some time."

 

Just like you would.

[MJ]

TB,

 

I don't know what you are saying and have very little time for nonsense.

 

You were saying...?

[564312]

Dear Azat you are right French owns the Cognac. When it was on sale few years ago I kept hearing that the Japanese bought it. I think there will be more foreign investors in Armenia since Armenia has been accepted into the World Trade Organization of course the only Country opposed was Turkey they dropped on the condition that Armenia won’t object Azerbaijan’s membership. Armenia will also demand the removal of Turkeys and Azerbaijan’s transport blockade which is a good thing.

[Twilight Bark]

Alright MJ, alright, don't get testy on me now.

 

I see you are not in the mood for subtlety today. But "no time for nonsense"? I don't know. Anyway, I want you to know that the pointy side of my comments were not directed at you at all. I share your loathing for the trivialization of the essense of being Armenian. Where I disagree with you is the importance of the silly symbols and unthinking reciting of the cliches. Those things are called "national myths". The silliness is not particular to Armenians or "loser" nations. The "great" nations have them aplenty but are doing just fine. The fact that Armenia, of all places, was put on that list, rather than some other "unimportant" nation has little to do with the silliness of our cliches.

 

More could be said about such matters in another thread. But that'll have to wait. This is going to be my last post for some time.

 

Sorry to rattle your nerves. That was not my intention.

 

Take care all,

 

TB

[MJ]

[gamavor]

Isn't the one of the two Middle Easterners with difficulties to pronounce the "R" sound? Isn't it the same who gave "green" light to turks in 1974 to invade Cyprus?

[khodja]

As in "teghoghist?"

[khodja]

That Sharon is one Jew who I greatly dislike. The Jews I like are Belin, Sarid, Auron, Charney and a myriad of Jews around the world that support our interests like Egoyan's friend and production partner Lantos, Miramax President Weinstein, and a bunch of American politicos, even Cohn-Bendit of France.

 

I think that Clarence Thomas is an abomination. I am sorry that all the work I did for civil rights elevated someone like him. The Jew I truly hate is the Reverend Lou Sheldon, who twists Christian belief to spread hatred. Ditto the dead bastard Armenian Rushdoony.

[khodja]

Sorry, spelled Beilin.

[sen_Vahan]

Even if this was a success of turkish or jewish lobbies in D.C. which did not work , anyway it remains their success, because it is "duk dzez khelok pahek".

 

MJ,

 

Xvatit vipendrivat'sya, kagdiy raz oshibki dopuskaesh'. Luchshe pereydi na armyanski i ne muchay sebya i ne mozol' mne glaza svoey negramotnost'yu. A za zabotu o moem sostoyanii spasibo, vse ge ne budu golosovat' za tebya

[gamavor]

Nothing in US foreign policy is a mistake or an accident. I don't think that abush Amerigatziner@ simply decided to include Armenia in that list just to flatter Turks or Jews.

One important feature of American foreign policy is extrapolation. I remember 2 years before the Kosovo war, they have build a military hospital on the border with former Yugoslavia.

Same was with the accident bombing of the Chinese Embassy.

Yesterday, in the European press there was an article about the readiness of the turkish army to deploy 300 000 soldiers in Northern Iraq whose goal would be prevention of creation of Kurdish independent state. If the worst happens (I'm pretty sure it will), that means a wave of kurdish civilians going up north, and only God knows how NOrth.

It is not a secret that Iraq is to be federated and the neighboring countries should expect huge influx of people trying to escape the destruction and the war. Armenia, although not immediate neighbor will have to "receive" a portion of those immigrants, who later will try to leave the country to the West. And then they will find out that are included in some kind of terrorist list.

That of course is a very primitive scenario... but very possible.

[MJ]

Dorogoi,

 

Vipendrezh mogu preostanovit' pri uslovii chto moim redaktorom stanesh' - vsegda budesh' chistkoi moikh textov zanimat'sia pered tem kak predstavliu ikh pko vnimaniu publiki - sort of "mj's jack in the box." A kanditaturu svaiu ya naverno snimu - mi staboi ne takie eshche vershini budem pokarat' - me and my jack-in-the-box..

[sen_Vahan]

"Dorogoi,

 

Vipendrezh mogu preostanovit' pri uslovii chto moim redaktorom stanesh' - vsegda budesh' chistkoi moikh textov zanimat'sia pered tem kak predstavliu ikh pko vnimaniu publiki - sort of "mj's jack in the box." A kanditaturu svaiu ya naverno snimu - mi staboi ne takie eshche vershini budem pokarat' - me and my jack-in-the-box.. "

 

MJ,

 

Eta tvoya glupaya rech', polnaya oshibok v pravopisanii, natalkivaet na misl', chto ti prosto vul'garni intelligentishka. A redaktori nugni gramotnim lyudyam, a ne takim, kakim yavlyaesh'sya ti. Da i voobshe, dumay neskol'ko raz i tol'ko potom pishi, a to proizvodish' vpechatlenie legkomislennogo shkol'nika, kotori uroki ne uchit kak sleduet.

Eto moy posledniy otklik na tvoi "oshibochnie vistupleniya". Pridostavlyau tebe vipendrit'sya eshe raz, posledniy.

[sen_Vahan]

P.S. Dal tebe shans eshe raz nayti oshibku v moey rechi. Ne progaday