Zara Posted March 7, 2008 Report Share Posted March 7, 2008 Zara jan, I think your choice would be the third one!!! Actually, I just kind of choose not to think about it because I know that I will never know the answer. It's more like being agnostic than atheist. Life's too short to waste and fret over unsolvable things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vera Posted March 7, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 7, 2008 What does it mean "laws of nature"? Does that mean within the realm in which we can perceive existence? Yes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aSoldier Posted March 31, 2008 Report Share Posted March 31, 2008 Creation is a testament to the existence of God. Romans 1:20 For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sip Posted March 31, 2008 Report Share Posted March 31, 2008 What is testament to creation? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sip Posted March 31, 2008 Report Share Posted March 31, 2008 how can God be "super-natural?" If God exists, isn't He natural? No. Natural means "within the laws of nature"... What does it mean "laws of nature"? Does that mean within the realm in which we can perceive existence? Yes Ok so after all this exchange, based on your answers, we have established that God is not natural which means God is not within the realm in which we can perceive existence. If God doesn't exist within the realm in which we can perceive existence, then how can you possibly say He exists? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nairi Posted March 31, 2008 Report Share Posted March 31, 2008 If God is the creator, then who is the creator of God, and who is the creator of that creator, ad infinitum? I'm not afraid to say that God does not exist, and if he does, then he should accept skepticism and forgive non-believers at the gates of heaven, if there is such a thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashot Posted March 31, 2008 Report Share Posted March 31, 2008 Nairi jan, your are one careful girl!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zara Posted March 31, 2008 Report Share Posted March 31, 2008 (edited) If God is the creator, then who is the creator of God, and who is the creator of that creator, ad infinitum? The other side of the question is: where did all of this stuff come from? Planets, stars, space, molecules, atoms, and what not. What's their origin and how was that origin created or formed? Edited March 31, 2008 by Zara Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sip Posted March 31, 2008 Report Share Posted March 31, 2008 Nairi, I forgive you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johannes Posted March 31, 2008 Report Share Posted March 31, 2008 (edited) The other side of the question is: where did all of this stuff come from? Planets, stars, space, molecules, atoms, and what not. What's their origin and how was that origin created or formed? Need. «Աստուած մարդը ստեղծեց իր պատկերով», այլ խօսքով՝ Աստուած մեր մէջն է, կամ՝ մենք ունենք Աստուածային եւ կենդանական բնոյթ: Երկուսն էլ կազմում են մեր ինքնութիւնը: Աստուծոյ ինչ լինելը ամեն ոք խմբագրած է, ըստ իր աշխարհայեցողութեան: Աստուածն այն է, որ չէր կարող չլինել: Առանց փիլիսոփայելու չի կարելի գրել՝ անտեսանելիի, անշօշափելիի, սակայն ստոյգ զգալիի մասին: Edited March 31, 2008 by Johannes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Em Posted March 31, 2008 Report Share Posted March 31, 2008 Every day God presents himself to me in various ways. I have never doubted his existance. I just know that men from antiquity have "edited" him/her/it to fit their ideals. I believe God is bigger and mre important than any church, or Pope or dogma. I have my spirituality and my faith in my God. I do not follow what others dictate. Because when I pray and my prayers are answered, or during my conversations with him, there are no conditions, restrictions or rules. It is a very pure exchange. And what I believe, feel and experience in relation to my God, no man can negate, trivialize or mock me for. I am too inteligent for that. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sip Posted March 31, 2008 Report Share Posted March 31, 2008 «Աստուած մարդը ստեղծեց իր պատկերով» It all depends where the 'comma' goes ... thousands of years of bickering and fighting over this one little comma. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johannes Posted March 31, 2008 Report Share Posted March 31, 2008 (edited) Ինչո՞ւ է հիասթափումը Աստծուց: Արդարութեան չգոյութիւն՞ը: Ուրեմն՝ հիասթափուենք նրանից, ով մեզ ասել է, թէ Աստուածն է պատասխանատու երկրի վրայ շարժող իւրաքանչիւր տերեւից: Հիասթափուենք նրանցից, ովքեր խմբագրել են Աստուծոյ էութիւնը: Edited March 31, 2008 by Johannes 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sip Posted March 31, 2008 Report Share Posted March 31, 2008 ... Because when I pray and my prayers are answered, or during my conversations with him, there are no conditions, restrictions or rules. It is a very pure exchange. Would you ever do this to your kid over this belief? Or did these people not pray hard enough? Or did God want this to happen? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Em Posted March 31, 2008 Report Share Posted March 31, 2008 Would you ever do this to your kid over this belief? Or did these people not pray hard enough? Or did God want this to happen? Come on Sip. We aren't going there are we? Of course medical interventon should have been sought. Of course I think that the Jehova's Witnesses are crazy for not allowing blood transfusions, artificial resuscitation, etc. Who said that the use of medicine goes against God? I can see the stupidity of their actions just as you can. But a few religious fanatics have no bearing on spirituality or faith as a whole. And regarding prayer, you dont' pray to always get things your wasy- as you see fit. You pray for the strenght and courage to accept the things that are going to happen. Like death of a child. Because it is not for us to understand all of God's plans. It is for us to have faith and believe that it is al for a greater good. Believe me I was a non-believer for a few seconds too. But that was the scariest time of my life. It was not natural for me. I guess I would rather follow my truth and be viewed as a fool by some than be untrue to myself just so I can follow popular convention. To each his own. May I have my faith without you judging me to be inferior or less intelligent than you? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anoushik Posted March 31, 2008 Report Share Posted March 31, 2008 Believe me I was a non-believer for a few seconds too. But that was the scariest time of my life. It was not natural for me. I guess I would rather follow my truth and be viewed as a fool by some than be untrue to myself just so I can follow popular convention. This goes both ways. Just like for a non-believer it seems foolish to be religious, for a believer it is foolish to be a non-believer. And as far as I know, historically and currently the popular convention is always more religious rather than the opposite. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sip Posted March 31, 2008 Report Share Posted March 31, 2008 (edited) To each his own. May I have my faith without you judging me to be inferior or less intelligent than you? You may have any faith you want but the point of threads like this, at least for me, is to question things that don't make sense. And your faith makes absolutely no sense to me other than being a mechanism that somehow makes you feel better about things. If that's why you pray, fine. But how can you say what those people did (i.e. pray for their kid until she died) is stupid, while at the same time you want me not to say your prayer is stupid? Either you can't say their actions were stupid and expect me to behave like you, or you can keep on saying those people in the news article as well as the Jehova Witnesses are stupid, and allow the same kind of freedom for me Can't have it both ways. Edited March 31, 2008 by Sip Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashot Posted March 31, 2008 Report Share Posted March 31, 2008 Sip jan, I don't think you read Em's article quite well... how about read it one more time!!! all she said is it's stupid to sit down and pray knowing there is a way out of it... Such as, you are drowning and starting to pray for god to help you and a boat comes by you refuse to take the boat because you think that god will help you - your action is stupid but praying is not!!! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arpa Posted March 31, 2008 Report Share Posted March 31, 2008 (edited) Come on Sip. We aren't going there are we? Of course medical interventon should have been sought. Of course I think that the Jehova's Witnesses are crazy for not allowing blood transfusions, artificial resuscitation, etc. Who said that the use of medicine goes against God? ==== Գիտանքը եւ տ-գիտանքը միայն մէկ տարով են բաժանուել: Knowledge and ignorance are separated only by one letter. And, here we are talking about is and is not, does and does not out of un-knowledge. To my knowledge jewohovah's witnesses have no issue with medical intervention. Are you talikng about those other idiots known as Christian Scientists? What an oxymoron!!! Only if we were to learn the difference between science and science fiction!!!! Edited March 31, 2008 by Arpa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MosJan Posted March 31, 2008 Report Share Posted March 31, 2008 Երբ կյանքում ամեն ինչ լավ է, արողջ և ուրախ էս, երբ երեխաներտ վազում և ծիծաղում են, երբ ծնողներտ գըլխիտ են ամեն ինչ լավ է մեկ խոսքով շատերըս չենք ել հիշում Աստցուն - բայց արաչին իսկ դժվարուտյան դեպքում, արաչին իսկ երեխայի ցավի կամ արցունքի կաթիլ տեսնելուց մեզանից շատերը դզեռքերը վեր են պարզում և անհույս աչքերով երկքում պընտրում այն ինչ չեյն հիշում մինչ այտ սարսապելին մարդ արարածն է օվ չի հավատում, չնայած որ չհավատացողն էլ իր հերթին հավատում որ ինք@ չի հավատում ։) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arpa Posted March 31, 2008 Report Share Posted March 31, 2008 (edited) If God is the creator, then who is the creator of God, and who is the creator of that creator, ad infinitum? I'm not afraid to say that God does not exist, and if he does, then he should accept skepticism and forgive non-believers at the gates of heaven, if there is such a thing. Nairi, you devil-ette! You will gnash your teeth and burn in that “oven” along with Petros Dourian, Matt.8[12] But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. [13] And Jesus said unto the centurion, Go thy way; and as thou hast believed, so be it done unto thee. 12իսկ արքայութեան որդիները պիտի ելնեն արտաքին խաւարը. այնտեղ պիտի լինի լաց եւ ատամների կրճտում»։ 13Եւ Յիսուս հարիւրապետին ասաց. «Գնա՛, եւ ինչպէս հաւատացիր, այնպէս թող լինի քեզ» How dare you? How dare you question the “WORD” from that heap of garbage aka THE BIBLE??!! Who is that “god” that cut short the lives of Petros Dourian (age 20), Daniel Varuzhan (age 38) and Komitas(age 39)???? (Edited) http://hayeren.hayastan.com/english/poets....=petros2.html#4 ՏՐՏՈՒՆՋՔ Այլ այն աստուծույն՝ շանթերու արմատ՝ Հավելուն զենքերն ու զարդերն հըրատ... Այլ, ո՛հ, ի՛նչ կըսեմ... շանթահարե՛ զիս, Աստվա՛ծ, խոկն հսկա, փշրե հյուլեիս՝ Որ ժպրհի ձըգտիլ, սուզիլ խորն երկնի, Ելնել աստղերու սանդուղքն ահալի... Ողջո՛ւյն քեզ, աստվա՛ծ, դողդոջ էակին, Շողին, փըթիթին, ալվույն ու վանկին, Դու որ ճակատիս վարդն ու բոցն աչերուս Խըլեցիր՝ թըրթռումս շրթանց՝ թռիչն հոգվույս, Ամպ տըվիր աչացս, հևք տըվիր սըրտիս, Ըսիր մահվան դուռն ինձ պիտի ժըպտիս, Անշուշտ ինձ կյանք մը պահած ես ետքի, Կյանք մ'անհուն շողի, բույրի, աղոթքի. Իսկ թե կորնչի պիտի իմ հուսկ շունչ Հոս մառախուղի մեջ համր անշշունջ, Այժմեն թո՛ղ անեծք մ'ըլլամ ու կողըդ խըրիմ, Թո՛ղ հորջորջեմ քեզ. "Աստված ոխերիմ": Աստուած ոխերիմ? Vindictive god? Vindictive against whom? Poor little 19 year old Petros who had not even seen the spring of his life? Can I say this? I know. Our Mods will review this.. (Edited) so called GOD who has taken away the likes of Petros Dourian away from us. And now, dear Nairi you owe us a “day after“… repentence. Blame the translational transgressions on me. Zghjoum/Repentence (The day after) Yesterday, when in a cold sweat I was in a deep dark nap, And a pair of withered pale roses Were aflame on my pale cheeks, Of course, on my forehead Twinkled a pallid light and I had a flight of death, I heard my mother's sobs... I opened my weary eyes, and I saw my mother's tears... Oh! genuine and tender Those pearls so deceitful! My mother had a pain immense I was that dark and black pain... Ah! There rose a storm in my head... I let that dark black flood loose... Oh! Forgive me my God, I saw tears of my mother's... (Edited) Note: Arpa just state your opinion without the vulgar language. You are right you can't say that. Yervant Edited March 31, 2008 by Yervant1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sip Posted March 31, 2008 Report Share Posted March 31, 2008 Sip jan, I don't think you read Em's article quite well... how about read it one more time!!! all she said is it's stupid to sit down and pray knowing there is a way out of it... I think I actually understood it pretty well that was exactly my point. Those people are saying it's their faith to pray and not seek medical help. She says it's stupid then asks for others not to judge her beliefs. Why is one base-less belief better than another? If we believe in God enough that we want to pray to Him, then why should we not respect people who believe in God even more and want to pray to Him even more (instead of seeing a doctor for example)? If you are going to say simply praying is not as harmful as not going to the doctor, I will argue that in the long run, praying and then going to the doctor is MORE harmful because at least in the other case, natural selection takes care of the problem Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MosJan Posted March 31, 2008 Report Share Posted March 31, 2008 Sip hima el Anhhavat es ?? Bayts yete Em & Ashot@ Canadayits lineyin k@havatayir che Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashot Posted March 31, 2008 Report Share Posted March 31, 2008 Sip... is there anything that you believe in? explain me something, you don't believe in anything whatsoever, then where did we come from? and where will we end up after death? have you ever thought of this? have you ever really sat down and think what happens after death? try brother, then you might start believing in "something"... unless you could care less what happens after death!!! Here is my argument, towards those, how shall we say, foolish people that pray and not do anything about it, first of all Sip jan, what I believe is they should have taken the kid to the doctors for medical treatment, then start praying for everything to be successful, not sit at home and pray for a miracle, cause it ain't happening!!! but then again why am I even trying to prove a point with you brother, anyways you don't believe in any of it!!! you believe that they should just take the kid to the doctors for the treatment and sit down relaxed, thinking it's either gonna get better or worse, not even worrying about it, cause you know what must happen will happen... and you wouldn't even have to pray for anything to be well because you just don't believe in it!!! - am I right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harut Posted March 31, 2008 Report Share Posted March 31, 2008 Sip... is there anything that you believe in? explain me something, you don't believe in anything whatsoever, then where did we come from? and where will we end up after death? have you ever thought of this? have you ever really sat down and think what happens after death? try brother, then you might start believing in "something"... unless you could care less what happens after death!!! Here is my argument, towards those, how shall we say, foolish people that pray and not do anything about it, first of all Sip jan, what I believe is they should have taken the kid to the doctors for medical treatment, then start praying for everything to be successful, not sit at home and pray for a miracle, cause it ain't happening!!! but then again why am I even trying to prove a point with you brother, anyways you don't believe in any of it!!! you believe that they should just take the kid to the doctors for the treatment and sit down relaxed, thinking it's either gonna get better or worse, not even worrying about it, cause you know what must happen will happen... and you wouldn't even have to pray for anything to be well because you just don't believe in it!!! - am I right? mi patarr jijvi ker... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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