Simple Questions.anyone Care To Answer?

[Armat]

AK-47

I watched that before.I mean serious scholarly rebuttal.

[vava]

Well there was the PBS debate panel where McCarthy was roundly picked apart by Balakian & Ackam.

 

 

 

EDIT: I only noticed AFTER I posted this message, that someone has already posted the link to the debate. Thanks!

Edited November 1, 2007 by vava

[hagopn]

The key word in all this is "Doubt" and that is all that the turks are doing.

Once you spread doubt in peoples mind no matter how much proof you present it will be taken with a grain of salt.

 

Such speculation is a double edged sword. Different minds react in different ways, and some might be further offended, pon having been properly informed, of the attempt to create doubt. Therefore the very act of creating doubt by way of disinformation can backfire.

 

In any case, having the facts be well known, having them reach the public in organized and cogent format, is the strongest and most guaranteed manner of fighting. I am worried that this is not the case as of yet.

 

[hagopn]

Nope, not in contact, I just had the chance to have them. I had a full digitized copy of Nogales work, I have lost it when my HD died, but I gave copies to some of the forum members if you want it.

 

Whereabouts are you?

 

What amount is enough to put serious study?

 

Do you need scholarships?

 

Do you need sponsorship?

 

 

[Takoush]

Armenian rebels were very active prior of AG and Armenian soldiers in Ottoman army being killed later was directly relates to "perceived disloyalty"Understand this if you got Rebel bands roaming the country,supplying arms,aiding the Russian army then same ethnic group serving in your army would you trust them?

 

Tashnagtsoutyoun tried to arm the people but apparently to no avail after the Hamidian massacres from 1895 through 1896 of the loss of 300,000 souls. But Tashnagtsoutyoun tried to arm the people for a good reason. As you well know that the people were constantly living in fright and were being killed continuously.

 

Tashnagtsagan leaders well knew that the turkish government were going to attack and annihilate the people again and again and they tried hard to arm and have them be self sufficient at least in the main overpopulated areas; but the 1915 came too soon as they didn't suspect of a Genocide to this magnitude. And who the heck can blame Tashnagtsoutyoun or any entity of people for trying to arm themselves and the people when they were constantly living in fear for their lives?

 

I may get lot of heat on this but Dashnaks did deliberately intentionally provoked massacres in order to get the allies to invade Turkey.Our own people sacrificed our people for political gains.

 

This is a lot of garbage and it looks as though our enemy the turks are talking here. Total and complete lies.

 

Tashnagtsoutyoun would never ever do such a deceitful harmful acts against the people. Tashnagtoutyoun only tried hard to prevent any massacres or Genocide from happening. They only tried to have the people take charge of themselves and of their lives.

Edited November 1, 2007 by Anahid Takouhi

[Armat]

Tashnagtsoutyoun would never ever do such a deceitful harmful acts against the people. Tashnagtoutyoun only tried hard to prevent any massacres or Genocide from happening. They only tried to have the people take charge of themselves and of their lives.

 

Anahid

Please read about the Dashnak organization before forming opinions which you clearly sound ignorant.Read the Andranik bio please.

If my memory serves me right they even tried to invite Turkish army to fight against the bolsheviks.Its a pity that I believe (its my believe) that Dashnaks were responsible of losing western Armenia.

 

[Takoush]

Anahid

Please read about the Dashnak organization before forming opinions which you clearly sound ignorant.Read the Andranik bio please.

If my memory serves me right they even tried to invite Turkish army to fight against the bolsheviks.Its a pity that I believe (its my believe) that Dashnaks were responsible of losing western Armenia.

Andranik had a problem for losing Artsax when he trusted the Brits. That's when they made alliances with the Soviets and Stalin gave it to the Azeris.

 

FYI I don't just go by Andranik's bio, I know through Tashnaks' deeds and I know their works enough to speak of. And I know that Tashnagtsoutyoun did not provoke massacres under any circumstances.

 

Please Armat, don't go by only one book nor rely of opinions nor hearsay.

Edited November 1, 2007 by Anahid Takouhi

[Hellektor]

Some people just love to hate the Dashnaks. It's a problem with our nation. Just like today (if the comparison could be relevant) where 25 organizations have called for voting Levon Ter Petrossian for president! ONLY because they hate the Kocharian clan. Man, you got to be out of your minds, how soon they forget those dark years?

 

While Kocharian/Sarkissian are no angels, they are the best among the lot for the present situation, although I would like to see Vahan Hovanessian as president who would guarantee that there could be no compromise as far as territory is concerned in the Artsakh issue. That's because it is the stance of the party and he represents the party and not like say, Tzaroukian who became second while his party was hardly a couple of years old. It's so sad to see that our people's political awareness is soooooo loooowwwww that they believe by voting uncle Gago, they'll become rich overnight.

 

Guys pleeeaase! Do read the literature of the time: Varandian's "History of Dashnaktsoutioun", Vratsian's "The Republic of Armenia", Ruben's "Memoires of a Revolutionary", Malkhas' Ապրումներ, Arshavir Shirakian's Կտակն էր Նահատակներու, etc., and don't just trust a recent work whose sole point is to smear the Dashnaks.

 

If it wasn't for Aram Manoukian, this 10 percent of our homeland would not exist today.

 

[Takoush]

Some people just love to hate the Dashnaks. It's a problem with our nation. Just like today (if the comparison could be relevant) where 25 organizations have called for voting Levon Ter Petrossian for president! ONLY because they hate the Kocharian clan. Man, you got to be out of your minds, how soon they forget those dark years?

 

While Kocharian/Sarkissian are no angels, they are the best among the lot for the present situation, although I would like to see Vahan Hovanessian as president who would guarantee that there could be no compromise as far as territory is concerned in the Artsakh issue. That's because it is the stance of the party and he represents the party and not like say, Tzaroukian who became second while his party was hardly a couple of years old. It's so sad to see that our people's political awareness is soooooo loooowwwww that they believe by voting uncle Gago, they'll become rich overnight.

 

Guys pleeeaase! Do read the literature of the time: Varandian's "History of Dashnaktsoutioun", Vratsian's "The Republic of Armenia", Ruben's "Memoires of a Revolutionary", Malkhas' Ապրումներ, Arshavir Shirakian's Կտակն էր Նահատակներու, etc., and don't just trust a recent work whose sole point is to smear the Dashnaks.

 

If it wasn't for Aram Manoukian, this 10 percent of our homeland would not exist today.

AMEN!!!!!!!

 

And some here didn't even know it that today's Republic of Armenia it was under the Tashnagtsouyoun's party and of course the mighty Aram Manoukian that today we have the little piece of land that we call it Armenia!

[hagopn]

Some people just love to hate the Dashnaks. It's a problem with our nation. Just like today (if the comparison could be relevant) where 25 organizations have called for voting Levon Ter Petrossian for president! ONLY because they hate the Kocharian clan. Man, you got to be out of your minds, how soon they forget those dark years?

 

While Kocharian/Sarkissian are no angels, they are the best among the lot for the present situation, although I would like to see Vahan Hovanessian as president who would guarantee that there could be no compromise as far as territory is concerned in the Artsakh issue. That's because it is the stance of the party and he represents the party and not like say, Tzaroukian who became second while his party was hardly a couple of years old. It's so sad to see that our people's political awareness is soooooo loooowwwww that they believe by voting uncle Gago, they'll become rich overnight.

 

Guys pleeeaase! Do read the literature of the time: Varandian's "History of Dashnaktsoutioun", Vratsian's "The Republic of Armenia", Ruben's "Memoires of a Revolutionary", Malkhas' Ապրումներ, Arshavir Shirakian's Կտակն էր Նահատակներու, etc., and don't just trust a recent work whose sole point is to smear the Dashnaks.

 

If it wasn't for Aram Manoukian, this 10 percent of our homeland would not exist today.

 

That's an unfortunate truth. Political awareness is low. Dashnaks are not the devils, but they are not the saints. Particularly the memoirs of Zavarian are revealing on just how short-sihgted the Dashnaks were in their so-called heyday. The Dashnaks in the 1920s still boasted of their "aggressive stance," that was tantamount to nothing but total political stupidity.

 

Indeed, as another sign of total immaturity, Dashnaks and Hnchaks were shooting it out in Beirut in the 1950s, being a total embarassment to Armeniandom. It is as if the spirit of Joey McCarthy had infected our partisans and ws cause to shoot at each other. Dashnaks were selling off their competitors to the French Mandate in Syria in the 1920s and 1930s as "Communist collaborators," and so on and so forth.

 

In the 1947 ներգաղթ Hnchak reps were sending people to Armenia, while they themselves were not going.

 

I find it disturbing that Dashnak membership is a "boy scout birth" thing versus conscious party affiliation based on knowledge of platform, knowledge of actual governmet participation and orientation on key issues, and so on. A 3-year-old Dashnak scout is not the most conducive manner of maintaining mature political climate. As the matter of fact, I would wager that the dashnak leadership (as any other so-called "traditional" party - which is a ridiculous label) prefer that there is no vote for membership.

 

People are bred to be part of the given group in the diaspora. rarely, if ever, do you see conscious participation in party politics.

 

The only reason that non-Dashnaks ever join the ANCA, for example, is as a conscious choice to pursue justice by way of lobbying for support for Armenia, genocide recognition, and other key issues. Otherwise, if you ask them what their reasoning is for joning the dashnak ranks, they will look at you with indignation and deny memership in the party.

 

In other words, objectivity in domestic party politics is certainly lacking. The least is true that we know genocide occurred, we accept that Armenia should exist and be strengthened. These are good points to unite on, at least form a consensus on. However, maintaining separate churches, separate schools sytems based on party affiliations, and other such divisive and expensive nonsense needs to be thrown out like dog crud.

 

Dashnaks were not better or worse. They were not perfect, nor did they know what the hell they were doing overall, as did not any hothead revolutionary of the time. Why else would have read the banner "Vote for Ittihad!" being carried by Dashnaks. Dashnaks started as agitators trying to get attention for murderous regime and its ethnic cleansing policies.

 

It was a natural but immature reaction to extreme injustice and dire conditions, but the "hothead revys" soon joined the ranks of the merkantile ambitious who merely opted for a "constitutionally reformed Ottoman empire". Why else were dashnak leader Krikor Zohrab "Effendi" and Tala'at such chummy pals?

 

A can of worms this is. I bet this has been discussed a billion times on this forum and others, but, then again, until there is serious self-reflection and autocriticism, serious progress in the political realm, there is no need to stop pointing out our shortfalls.

 

Right now, it is true that we are in the condition as a people who simply judge our assets as liabilities and vis versa due to incorrect priorities imposed by mostly incompetent political leaders.

 

 

[Armat]

I've been reading Journal of Armenian studies Vol. VIII,NO2 Fall 2006

 

on page 105 DR.Dillion who was an eye witness to Hamidian massacres.Interesting how a Kurd is saying killing Armenians was close to nothing as far as state punishment.

So far I got this on Dillon

Dillon, E. J. "The Condition of Armenia." Contemporary Review but can't find the actual one

 

Domino?Arpa?

[hagopn]

This is all I had to say right now, when I have time I'll write more.

 

Fascinating stuff! What are your sources? Where do you get the archival material? Do you have de Nogales' book in emailable format?

 

 

[hagopn]

Some questions:

 

I would have LOVED and would not have found NOTHING WRONG had there been a generalized revolt. In fact, the Armenians were just COWARDS, insteed of attacking the Ottoman during the Balkan war while the Russians were not bothered by the world war.

 

What opporunity was there at that time? What are you referring to?

 

But NOOOO!!! What the Armenians did INSTEED was to open their doors to Muslim refugees from the West, those same refugees who will later take their posession.

 

What are you referring to here? Armenians opened doors to balkan refugees? Can you give more detail?

 

(EXACTLY WHAT HAPPENED WITH ZEYTOON soon during the war, prior to Dardanelle, which revisionists yap to justify April 24, when reality is that both dates match is a total coincidences, since the order in Van was given on April 20 by Jevdet than Dardanelle).

This is all I had to say right now, when I have time I'll write more.

 

What is this above referring to? What happened in Zeytun that is analogous to (assuming) "opening doors to Balkan refugees"? What date matching?

 

[hagopn]

A comment - i

 

To think that the Armenian genocide happened because of revolts depict an ignorance of the situation. The Young Turks when they took power were supposed to reestablish the constitution, then they had policies such as the nationalization of the economy, then there was policies about the replacement of the milleti system, which as much unfair was to the Armenians it was at least guaranteeing its survival. The real replacement of the milleti system was the assimilation of populations. The nationalization of the economy, the replacement of the ''subject'' concept were all plans to homogenous the Empire. For the first time for the Turks they had a government which represent the Turkish identity.

 

Babert region, Hamshenli were islamized. This 98% fomer armenian territory was less than 8% by the late 16th and early 17th century. The danger of annihilation as a culture had always been there and real, and the "rebellion" as cause for genocide retribution argument is further nullified when taken from the dynamic of a little known fact that Armenian principalities would have continued to survive were it not for another problem, the Safavid incursions and the cleansing of the land. The danger from the Armenian element in the 17th and 18th centuries was much greater than in the 19th and 20th. As the matter of fact, when taken from the perspective of the Ottoman millet system, indeed, as you say above, the Ottomans were much more comparably secure than in previous centuries.

 

You have hit the nail on the head: Systematic assimilation was happening as a matter of course were it not for the modernization reforms that yielded a conscious nationalism among Armenians, who began to outpace their fellow subjects and Turks with internal constitutional reform and the very establishement of a parliament.

 

I would be eternally grateful if you could provide some primary reading for this stuff. First, what sort of reliable documentatio is there for the commercial activity of Armenians and the degree of commercial influence they had, which would obviously be a serious and fatal obstacle to the Turkification policies that were being implemented. The conventional consensus is that Armenians were small merchants, whereas the Greeks and Europeans were owners and controllers of large enterprise. This is especially the opinion on the Adana region, which ws a haven for foreign investment at the time. Is there anything that can solidly refute this notion?

 

Also, I don't see also why Pan-Turkism is discounted by some as a significant factor, when pan-Turkism is a natural course for the heemonic character of the Turkish Beys, their traditional land usurpation methods exhibited throughout their history since the annihilation of the Tochari/Yiezhi by the Uyghur clans in central.

 

In any case, Enver's campaigns into Central Asia indicate the exercise of a militant pragmatism behind this pan-turkist political dream.

 

 

[DominO123]

Domino

The Talat telegram.Wasn't the one Turks say it was a forgery by Adonian?

 

I don't think they are forgeries, this was debated on various occasions, let me find the links from this forum.

 

[DominO123]

Domino your box is full so I am posting it here.I would love those materials to have and thanks for great posts.

armat@verizon.net

 

Sorry Armat, I have not sent still the materials, I will do it as quickly I have access to one of my hard drives.

[DominO123]

I am little disappointed that this loud mouth McCarthy (all over UTUBE) has not been seriously challenged.That's my point.If he is saying garbage which I think he is then why have Armenians not seriously challenged his views.

 

Because Armenians mostly worry about yapping ''Armenian Genocide'' and not worrying on readin revisionist materials. You can't criticise and challenge what you have not read.

[DominO123]

Fascinating stuff! What are your sources? Where do you get the archival material? Do you have de Nogales' book in emailable format?

 

Contact Stormig or Neko, I have sent them a copy of the work in word format in the past. Some others required it too, if my memory doesn't fail Virginne too. I'd say start by those three, chances are strong that one of those still has it. It was in my dead Hard drive.

[DominO123]

The Balkan war was a major opportunity, had the Armenians revolted and gotten the support of the Russian Armenians, the chances are high that the Russians would have supported them and not be bothered with a world war.

 

Hamdullah Suphi has written about the Balkan war in Ikdam, 17 December 1912: “Presently when the other people murdered before our very eyes our fleeing wives and children, the Armenian soldiers who had enrolled in our army fought with a heroism that knows no higher degree. The officials whom the Armenians had put at the disposal of our government were the last ones leaving their posts when the cities that were threatened by the enemy were being evacuated. Their families were the ones which opened their doors to the fleeing citizens with the please. “Don't go away. Don't destroy your hearth. Let us live together until such time when the unhappy days are over.””

 

On Zeytun and many places in Cilicia had recieved a very considerable number of Muslim refugees, on the first occasion the refugees took pocession of the Armenian properties.

 

Some questions:

 

 

 

What opporunity was there at that time? What are you referring to?

What are you referring to here? Armenians opened doors to balkan refugees? Can you give more detail?

What is this above referring to? What happened in Zeytun that is analogous to (assuming) "opening doors to Balkan refugees"? What date matching?

 

[hagopn]

Contact Stormig or Neko, I have sent them a copy of the work in word format in the past. Some others required it too, if my memory doesn't fail Virginne too. I'd say start by those three, chances are strong that one of those still has it. It was in my dead Hard drive.

 

Thanks. I'll ask around.

 

Anyway, dude, your stuff online right now is among those rare postings of substance. You've obviously done your homework.

 

I kept reading most of the material posted here http://www.armeniangenocide.com/showthread...=184&page=2, and what bothers me most is not the Turkish revisionists, who are entirely predictable, but the lack of substantial respondants who challenge revisionist material with substance. I just see most are out there for a boxing match, but few have taken the time to study material involved.

 

If you have not already, you should seriously get in touch with George Aghjayan on the demographics question. I don't know anyone who has scrutinized McCarthy's number games as much as he. Another good work that is on the way to completion is by Dr. Lucine Sahakyan and her serial study on the demographics of Armenian regions according to the Ottoman tahrir davtari and foreign accounts. It's an intensely factual little book that I'm scanning right now as I type.

 

However, you didn't answer my question on Armenian commerce and the extent of influence on the Ottoman economy.

 

[DominO123]

However, you didn't answer my question on Armenian commerce and the extent of influence on the Ottoman economy.

 

Have you read the list provided by Zohrab?

 

[hagopn]

Have you read the list provided by Zohrab?

 

No, my friend. Where is it?

[Z'areh]

Because Armenians mostly worry about yapping ''Armenian Genocide'' and not worrying on readin revisionist materials. You can't criticise and challenge what you have not read.

 

BINGO, could not have been said better.

 

It is like arguing whithout knowing the basic rules. Even in a criminal court system the defence needs to know what the prosecutor has against the defendent, for better preparation. Just relying on "no you honour he didn't do it" can get people hanged, even if they are innocent.

 

 

[Armat]

 

Domino

I am totally confused on Istanbul massacre of 1895 Oct 1

 

Official number dead 70 which I read it was a telegraph sent to England by British diplomat then I read Dadrian putting the figure 2000 and more?

Something does not add up obviously.Its not even close.What do you think about this

[DominO123]

Domino

I am totally confused on Istanbul massacre of 1895 Oct 1

 

Official number dead 70 which I read it was a telegraph sent to England by British diplomat then I read Dadrian putting the figure 2000 and more?

Something does not add up obviously.Its not even close.What do you think about this

 

Armat, there was massacres in Istanbul several day prior to October 1, Dadrian from the History of the Armenian Genocide seem to use the collection from the French which he claims to be the most complete (for the Hamidian massacre). ''Official nuber of death'' is also a very vague, official according to who, and is it even complete? I doubt there was 2,000 victims from the October incidences in Istanbul, it was probably more closer to half of that figure.