Simple Questions.anyone Care To Answer?

[Armat]

I've been battling deniers for almost a year and frequently asked question why Armenia refused historical discussions.At 1st I said that since we know what happened its pointless to seat down and discuss with bunch of fanatic nationalistic turks about our history.However I never totally felt comfortable with that for several reasons.

1.If we know that AG is a undisputed fact then why should be afraid to discuss the issue with anyone

2.Better case to be made if could prove directly to Turks themselves

3.Finally putting the end to this issue

4.Why aren't our archives open?

5.If we killed and massacred the Turks then lets do find out how many exactly.I heard numbers from 40k to 500kIn the absence of real data how does one discredit this information.

6.1st prime minister HK admitted massacring Turks and its a fact we did rebel.No point denying this but what really happened during this rebel times.

7.It seems there are grey areas that we Armenians are at fault for prolonging the denial.If we call the spade ,A spade then lets open everything and challenge anyone!!including Bernard Lewis types.

 

Anyone care to answer?

[vava]

Brief answers - Domino will surely be more thorough:

 

1.If we know that AG is a undisputed fact then why should be afraid to discuss the issue with anyone

We're not afraid. In fact we have been discussing it for years. The evidence supporting the facts are clear; impartial historians (read: not on Turkish payroll) including the International Association of Genocide Scholars acknowledge it as fact.

 

2.Better case to be made if could prove directly to Turks themselves

The Turkish administration has cleared its history books of these events - presently most Turks are raised with an entirely different version of history. It's very difficult to overcome such indoctrination, especially in a nationalist environment in country where they have a habit of jailing those who challenge the state sanctioned "official history".

 

3.Finally putting the end to this issue

How can you put an "end" to continuing denialism?

 

4.Why aren't our archives open?

What archives? Armenia wasn't a nation at that time. Whatever archives of materials we currently do have are in fact open - and so are the archives of several governments such as Germany, England and America as well as documented materials from international aid organisations active in the Ottoman Empire at the time.

 

5.If we killed and massacred the Turks then lets do find out how many exactly.I heard numbers from 40k to 500kIn the absence of real data how does one discredit this information.

It's difficult to determine - there were likely some pockets of reprisal killings. The higher figures probably include numbers killed by the Russian forces during the war along the eastern front. So which killings are we talking about? I'm not certain there are reliable numbers on this. Also, let's not forget that most Armenians were quietly disarmed before the deportations began, so any rebellions/reprisals would have been limited in scope in comparison to what was going on.

 

 

6.1st prime minister HK admitted massacring Turks and its a fact we did rebel.No point denying this but what really happened during this rebel times.

Refer to my statement above. In addition to the limited scope of the reprisals, we can also consider that this statement may have also been about restoring a bit of lost pride and confidence amongst a population that was being decimated. I'm entirely well versed on the subject of the Armenian rebellions. Peter Balakian covers it in his book.

 

7.It seems there are grey areas that we Armenians are at fault for prolonging the denial.If we call the spade ,A spade then lets open everything and challenge anyone!!including Bernard Lewis types.

 

I'm not sure exactly what you mean by this. Could you elaborate?

Edited October 29, 2007 by vava

[Yervant1]

I've been battling deniers for almost a year and frequently asked question why Armenia refused historical discussions.At 1st I said that since we know what happened its pointless to seat down and discuss with bunch of fanatic nationalistic turks about our history.However I never totally felt comfortable with that for several reasons.

Armat Jan let me start first by saying that I'm all for reconciliation with them and live in peace as neighbours.

I will try to give my opinion for your questions in short answers as much as possible. Armenia did not refuse the historical discussions but said let us first have diplomatic (Normal) relations as neighbours without preconditions, but we all know turkey wants us to abandon AG, give up Artsakh to the baboons and have no land claims or reparations.

 

 

1.If we know that AG is a undisputed fact then why should be afraid to discuss the issue with anyone

I would have used Since instead ofif at the beginning of your question.

We all know that when turkey discusses the AG they do it for political reasons and not for historical facts, TARC is an excellent proof of that.

Also the time for AG discussion whether it's a fact or not is long gone, the jury is out for that, what is left is how can we heal the wounds together and move forward.

 

 

2.Better case to be made if could prove directly to Turks themselves

You said it yourself that you are batteling them for a year, even if you battle them for another 92 years the result will be the same.

What turkey needs is abolish article 301 and let the turkish people discuss this freely amongts themselves and come to the conclusion you will be surprised at the outcome. Maybe I'm putting too much faith on turks but we have examples of them behaving nobly knowing well that it's against the law to admit AG in turkey.

 

 

3.Finally putting the end to this issue

This issue will not come to an end with us but with them after they come to terms with their past.

 

 

4.Why aren't our archives open?

As far as I'm concerned our archives are open. Do you remember a year or so ago a turkish citizen who was studying the Armenian archives got caught leaving Armenia with some cultural books that was forbidden to take out of country.

I wish that all the countries who have archives regarding AG is fully and in it's entirity open to the public such as England, France, Germany, US and so on.

 

 

5.If we killed and massacred the Turks then lets do find out how many exactly.I heard numbers from 40k to 500kIn the absence of real data how does one discredit this information.

You are falling into the trap that they are setting by equating this nonsense that we revolted and killed them and in return they thaught us a lesson, or we killed therefore they killed. They were killing us way before 1915 by the thousands, killing someone for self defence is not a massacre I wished that every Armenian had revolted and tried to defend themselves we wouldn't be talking about a genocide today.

Of course some elements of the society did some revenge killings but the turks used that as an excuse in order to kill the whole Armenian population instead of killing those who were resposible, even some turks claim that they provoked these people so that they can use it as an excuse.

Also do not fall for the numbers game if we had that kind of power in order to kill 500k we wouldn't have been genocided.

 

 

6.1st prime minister HK admitted massacring Turks and its a fact we did rebel.No point denying this but what really happened during this rebel times.

Yes some areas rebeled for the unfair conditions but the majority had nothing to do with that.

 

 

7.It seems there are grey areas that we Armenians are at fault for prolonging the denial.If we call the spade ,A spade then lets open everything and challenge anyone!!including Bernard Lewis types.

I'm sure we did some mistakes along the way in dealing with AG but I don't know how can you have a honest discussion with a hired gun who's main goal is to make money and not to find the truth.

 

 

 

 

 

[Armat]

Guys

Is there a way to verify that our archives for what its worth open? If Yes then why do the Turks keep saying our archives are closed.

 

Armenian revolutionary movement started way before 1915 if I am correct around 1878-90's. The fact is events did take place to swing the Turkish overall opinions of Armenians to severe distrust and more easily to dispose and kill.Its not a justification but AG did not materialize from out of blue.

We lived together for 600 years without much problems even prospered and all of sudden "few" rebel forces caused the AG?Something does not make sense.

I am being totally objective.

Dadrian says Hamidian massacres were result of dble taxation.Is this totally true?This does not make sense.

[HyeFedayis]

I remember when a Turk was arrested in Armenia for accessing the Armenian archives I forget what happened, they were going to leave him in jail 'indef' but he was released. After Armenians and many others made petitions its on ArmeniaPedia.org news report.

 

As far as I can see it Armenia doesn't want people accessing there archives, maybe they have a surprise in the future?

 

Also I don't think the Ottoman Archives are reliable since the removal of information is present, they have done it as Taner Ackam said.

 

Turks want us to debate with there archives and ours.

 

Anyway it won't make a difference, those are Turks who are nationalist they know all these things but they deny it. They won't admit it.

Edited October 29, 2007 by HyeFedayis

[DominO123]

I've been battling deniers for almost a year and frequently asked question why Armenia refused historical discussions.At 1st I said that since we know what happened its pointless to seat down and discuss with bunch of fanatic nationalistic turks about our history.However I never totally felt comfortable with that for several reasons.

1.If we know that AG is a undisputed fact then why should be afraid to discuss the issue with anyone

Who told we are? Don't tell me you bought that BS commission stuff? The Turkish representatives did not say that they will be engaging in researching, they have said that they will be selling their crap. You don't debate with someone who before debating admit that he will not change his view, no matter what and that his goal is to ''prove'' you that he is right.

2.Better case to be made if could prove directly to Turks themselves

Most don't want to be proved

3.Finally putting the end to this issue

The Turkish birthrate is fold higher than the rate of Turks who start recognizing it. There is nothing which indicate this will change. How you expect ending this?

4.Why aren't our archives open?

This is a total fabrication, since the fall of the Soviet Union the records are open. Even if the Armenians were to have killed over 500,000 Turks, you still would not have found anything. The territory this has happened is outside of the reublic of Armenia, and it would not have passed the stage of Bolshevic cleansing of any traces of documents about Dashnakist revolutionary activity.

5.If we killed and massacred the Turks then lets do find out how many exactly.I heard numbers from 40k to 500kIn the absence of real data how does one discredit this information.

Ahmed Emin, a Kemalist, who was also one of the deportees of Malta, advances for what followed WWI, 40,000 Muslims. Those were the years where most of the Muslims were killed by Armenians. But he lost his credibility by tripling this figure for 1915.

6.1st prime minister HK admitted massacring Turks and its a fact we did rebel.No point denying this but what really happened during this rebel times.

He never did this, the first few pages which this come from are not from the originals but Darounian translation. This speach speak of the Armenians on Transcaucasia, if you pay attention this version has a contradiction when it uses Transcaucasia then say Turkey, Anatolia is not Transcaucasia. Holdcraper after I exposed this to him, during his interview attempted to have an answer from Ataov who used this junk claim.

 

Check this out:

 

TAT: He was talking about the Armenians of Transcaucasia, though.

 

ATAOV: Yes, he was... No, both sides.

 

Ataov admited first, then covered it. even Darounian version say TransCaucasia, then Turkey is added there as if it was in Transcaucasia. Darounian is not credible in anything which has to do with the Dashnaks, and his translatation was done during the 40s, when there was a Dashnak mouvement of independence of Armenia. The goal of his writting was to sell the claim that Armenians could not control themselves and need the Soviet Union.

 

7.It seems there are grey areas that we Armenians are at fault for prolonging the denial.If we call the spade ,A spade then lets open everything and challenge anyone!!including Bernard Lewis types.

 

Anyone care to answer?

 

Here I agree with you, denying takes more sofistication than acceptance, so by average the Western scholars who deny the genocide are more intelligent and more well read than those who recognize it.

 

Take Justin McCarthy, he is a demographer and a historian. Take Lewy, he's been able to minimize the Gypsies tragedy in WWII, and it was done in so much sofistication that the scholars who've read him for the most part did not see his intention and he was even praised. He did it in a very successful way also to minimise the US marine crimes in Vietnam. For those reasons, those people are left unanswered while they use also their times to criticise Armenian genocide work in peer reviewed journals and not sound as denialists.

 

We do not need simple genocide scholars, we need people who are specialised in the methodology of denial, the way they deny, those who will bother going deep in their work and debunk them.

 

We need new type of works, specifically on the way it is denied and the debunking of those works. And while I had started to write about a hundred page on McCarthy and droped it, this is too much work without being paid for the job. For scholars it is more difficult to write those sort of works, because it is not all to research records, one must scrutinise the denialist literature pieces by pieces and debunk the sofistication.

Edited October 29, 2007 by Domino

[Yervant1]

Guys

Is there a way to verify that our archives for what its worth open? If Yes then why do the Turks keep saying our archives are closed.

 

Armenian revolutionary movement started way before 1915 if I am correct around 1878-90's. The fact is events did take place to swing the Turkish overall opinions of Armenians to severe distrust and more easily to dispose and kill.Its not a justification but AG did not materialize from out of blue.

We lived together for 600 years without much problems even prospered and all of sudden "few" rebel forces caused the AG?Something does not make sense.

I am being totally objective.

Dadrian says Hamidian massacres were result of dble taxation.Is this totally true?This does not make sense.

The massacres before 1915 was a punishment to Armenians according to the sultan for asking social reforms. Whereas the AG was the result of the crumbling Ottoman Empire, they were losing most of their teritories and wanted to solidify a smaller area which was homogenous and minority free. In the opinion of the young turks we were a liability for the dismemberment of their land, all the other issues are excuses for their plans.

[DominO123]

Guys

Is there a way to verify that our archives for what its worth open? If Yes then why do the Turks keep saying our archives are closed.

 

Armenian revolutionary movement started way before 1915 if I am correct around 1878-90's. The fact is events did take place to swing the Turkish overall opinions of Armenians to severe distrust and more easily to dispose and kill.Its not a justification but AG did not materialize from out of blue.

We lived together for 600 years without much problems even prospered and all of sudden "few" rebel forces caused the AG?Something does not make sense.

I am being totally objective.

Dadrian says Hamidian massacres were result of dble taxation.Is this totally true?This does not make sense.

 

Yes there is a way, contact your embassy, it is better for you to be affiliated with a university or something. They will send you that applications to your address.

 

There was much more revolts in 1894-96 than there was in 1914-15, in 1914-15 there was in practice no revolt which would even be worth mentioning. Nogales the paramilitary searched by the British for war crime, the sadistic moron who was cannonating Armenian buildings to the ground was the first to admit that the revolt in Van is a myth.

 

The reasons for the genocide would take much more coverages than the time I am willing to take. Check for more information on the reasons of the Capital tax imposed in WWI, given again the Armenians. The same sentiments remained, was there revolts then?

 

[Z'areh]

As far as the sofistication of the defenders of the Turkish thesis is concerned Domino is right on the mark.

 

-When Lewis says Armenian conscripts deserted the Ottoman army and joined the fight against "their own" army, he is not lying, what he is doing is he is leaving out the part where the conscripts were disarmed and put into labour batallions then systematically killed in "managable" groups.

 

-When they say we lived together for 600 years why all of a sudden turn against the Armenians? they leave out the fact that in Suleiman the Magnificent's time there were no Zia Gökalps theorising racial superiority, inciting racial hatred and blaming the destitution of the poor Muslim masses on the minority Greek and Armenian "profiteers"

 

-When they say Armenian archives are closed i) they are parroting propaganda lines just like the Azeris keep parroting that 20% of Azeri territory has been occupied and 1million refugees created. ii) What Armenian archives do they want to study, Armenia was not even a political entity at that time to have kept "damning" archives, one would ask: what documents issued from whom to whom?

 

 

The idea of sitting down and studying the archives is a red herring, what they want to do is professionally obfuscate and muddy-up the issues, with the blessing of the West (let's not forget that). They are looking for immediate blocking of the latest Armenain drive of parliamentary genocide resolutions in the world, they WILL succeed if Armenians take the bate. At this point this issue is not historical but political, and as such in the political arena Armenians will loose.

 

The perfect example is the government of Canada. Prime Minister Harper openly (and more significantly as the head of the government) acknowledged the Armenian genocide. Soon after the Canadian Foreign Minister issued a statement that agreed with theTurkish gevernment that "the Turkish offer to the Armenians of having a joint commission is a great idea that we, [i.e. the government] support"

 

I say: If the international community, along with Turkey to some degree, regard the crimes committed against the Armenians were perpetrated by the pre-republic and now-defunked Ottoman Empire, and that no living war-criminals is alive today then why are the Turks afraid of even discussing this issue publically in Turkey, why does the mention of Ottoman criminal thugs of yesterday is concidered "an insult" for today's Turks?

 

The mention of Nazi criminals does not insult the Germans today, so could it be that the Ittihadist criminals are regarded with reverence today in Turkey, and that the hatred agaisnt the Armenian "infidel" has never left theTurkish psyche? Unfortunately, if we look at the declarations of the head of the Turksih Historical Society, Yusuf Halacoglu, the answer could only be a very firm Yes!

 

 

[Takoush]

Armenian revolutionary movement started way before 1915 if I am correct around 1878-90's.

 

Armenian Revolutionary Federation was founded in Tiflis, Georgia in 1890 exactly, not before.

 

The fact is events did take place to swing the Turkish overall opinions of Armenians to severe distrust and more easily to dispose and kill.Its not a justification but AG did not materialize from out of blue.

 

The Armenian Revolutionary Federation started in bits and pieces to arm their Fedayis and the people around Van and Sassun areas mostly right after the Hamidian Massacres - as the Western Armenians used to call it the Big Massacres. "Meds Chart". In the interim the people were constantly being raped, kidnapped and killed. That was more reason for Tashnagtsoutyoun to start arming the people to better defend themselves.

 

We lived together for 600 years without much problems even prospered and all of sudden "few" rebel forces caused the AG?

 

We did live together for 600 years but not without problems or fear (be it coming from the government and from the people). FEAR never ceased from the Armenian people's hearts. They always lived in fear of losing their lives.

 

 

[Takoush]

The rebel forces as the enemy is constantly talking about is for the Henchagians and the Tashnagtsoutyun. They did not cause the AG. The Ittihadists caused the AG as they feared that since Bulgaria and the Balkanians have acquired their freedom, so will the Armenians. But the Armenians were not situated in Europe; but were part of the Ottoman Empire. The Ittihadists took advantage of WWI to cause the AG as they feared that Armenians were next in line to want and claim their freedom.

[Armat]

When Lewis says Armenian conscripts deserted the Ottoman army and joined the fight against "their own" army, he is not lying, what he is doing is he is leaving out the part where the conscripts were disarmed and put into labour batallions then systematically killed in groups"managable"

I believe Lewis as much as I hate to admit is telling the truth.Check the chronology of events.There were already rebel bands of Armenians including Andranik,Njdey,Sepuh,Dro operating against the Ottomans and lot of Turkish Armenians deserted to Russian and rebel forces.Killings of labor battalions happened sept 1915 and events or fighting already started.I read the Andranic bio and in this bio it covers in greater detail how involved the rebels were.

 

When they say Armenian archives are closed i) they are parroting propaganda lines just like the Azeris keep parroting that 20% of Azeri territory has been occupied and 1million refugees created. ii) What Armenian archives do they want to study, Armenia was not even a political entity at that time to have kept "damning" archives, one would ask: what documents issued from whom to whom?
The idea of sitting down and studying the archives is a red herring, what they want to do is professionally obfuscate and muddy-up the issues, with the blessing of the West (let's not forget that). They are looking for immediate blocking of the latest Armenain drive of parliamentary genocide resolutions in the world, they WILL succeed if Armenians take the bate. At this point this issue is not historical but political, and as such in the political arena Armenians will loose.

If we got nothing to hide then it should be open if it isn't already.How can it be a lie if its closed.I suspect present dashnak government will not want to reveal its organizations past.

 

 

I say: If the international community, along with Turkey to some degree, regard the crimes committed against the Armenians were perpetrated by the pre-republic and now-defunked Ottoman Empire, and that no living war-criminals is alive today then why are the Turks afraid of even discussing this issue publically in Turkey, why does the mention of Ottoman criminal thugs of yesterday is concidered "an insult" for today's Turks?

Great point and I raised this many times myself as well

The mention of Nazi criminals does not insult the Germans today, so could it be that the Ittihadist criminals are regarded with reverence today in Turkey, and that the hatred agaisnt the Armenian "infidel" has never left theTurkish psyche? Unfortunately, if we look at the declarations of the head of the Turksih Historical Society, Yusuf Halacoglu, the answer could only be a very firm Yes!

Do you mean what he said about the Armenian converting to Kurds?or simple denying of AG

Thanks for the answrs Zareh

Edited October 30, 2007 by Armat

[Armat]

it was a repeat Edited October 30, 2007 by Armat

[Armat]

There was much more revolts in 1894-96 than there was in 1914-15, in 1914-15 there was in practice no revolt which would even be worth mentioning. Nogales the paramilitary searched by the British for war crime, the sadistic moron who was cannonating Armenian buildings to the ground was the first to admit that the revolt in Van is a myth.

 

Maybe you are right but Armenians joining the Russians as much as 200k soldiers or even 100k posed a greater threat.Combined Russian and Armenian forces were a serious threat if you were the Ottomans.

I believe Armenian Genocide was directly relating to Russian/Armenian campaign and frankly I have difficulty pan Turanism being the reason as often sited by our historians.

 

Thanks for taking your time bro

[Armat]

The rebel forces as the enemy is constantly talking about is for the Henchagians and the Tashnagtsoutyun. They did not cause the AG. The Ittihadists caused the AG as they feared that since Bulgaria and the Balkanians have acquired their freedom, so will the Armenians. But the Armenians were not situated in Europe; but were part of the Ottoman Empire. The Ittihadists took advantage of WWI to cause the AG as they feared that Armenians were next in line to want and claim their freedom.

100-200k Armenians joining the Russians were a formidable reason considering Ottomans were at war on multiple fronts.Armenians were deserting and fighting against the Turks so in reality Ottomans reacted more "lets get rid of these Armenians before all start to join the Russians"

Lets be honest we would have done exactly that.

 

[AK-47]

I believe Lewis as much as I hate to admit is telling the truth.Check the chronology of events.There were already rebel bands of Armenians including Andranik,Njdey,Sepuh,Dro operating against the Ottomans and lot of Turkish Armenians deserted to Russian and rebel forces.Killings of labor battalions happened sept 1915 and events or fighting already started.I read the Andranic bio and in this bio it covers in greater detail how involved the rebels were.

Actually by 1908, the Young Turks and the Dashnags had become allies in overthrowing the sultan because the young Turks garanteed reforms for Armenians. There were a few changes but still not enough rights so the empire pretty much reverted to its old sick self, but this time it was increasingly turning towards nationalism, with WWI underway. Young Turks and the Dashnags were allied until 1912, where they cut relations.

 

Anyway, then WWI broke out, Turkey attacked Russia (or should I say, Russian Armenia) and lost at Sarikamish. Blamed the Armenians for its losses, despite the fact that there were Armenian soldiers within Ottoman ranks as well and that the Armenian volunteers from the Russian Empire numbered only a few thousands. The Dashnagtsoutioun had a policy that had Armenians fighting for the side that they were living on, meaning Armenians could've well been shooting other Armenians. Dro and Njdeh were from the Russian empire and were never a "fifth column" within the Ottoman Empire. Andranik had left the Ottoman empire to Europe during the 1908-1912 span.

[AK-47]

Maybe you are right but Armenians joining the Russians as much as 200k soldiers or even 100k posed a greater threat.Combined Russian and Armenian forces were a serious threat if you were the Ottomans.

I believe Armenian Genocide was directly relating to Russian/Armenian campaign and frankly I have difficulty pan Turanism being the reason as often sited by our historians.

 

Thanks for taking your time bro

No, Pan-Turanism is one of the major reasons that the Armenian Genocide happened. They said byebye to the millet system and turned more and more to nationalism. There was xenophobia, which was further fed to the population that they were losing because of the Christian infidels (they lost Greece, Christians after all). Anyway, the empire shrinking, they felt the need to hold on the land referred to as Anatolia and create a Turkey for Turks. We're the odd man out, we're orthodox christian (a la Russia) so we were cut down. Ottoman Empire also tried to grow by attacking the Caucasus, where another huge Armenian population existed. It was crushed by the Russians.

[vava]

100-200k Armenians joining the Russians were a formidable reason considering Ottomans were at war on multiple fronts.Armenians were deserting and fighting against the Turks so in reality Ottomans reacted more "lets get rid of these Armenians before all start to join the Russians"

Lets be honest we would have done exactly that.

 

Where did you find this figure? Buy the accounts I read, the majority of Armenians fighting for the Russians were from the Russian side of the border. Yes, there were pockets of Armenians that sided with the Russian troops once fighting began, but there wasn't any significant armed/organized resistance to the Ottoman army within the empire. Also don't forget to take into account the reasons that motivated any defectors - and these are several...

 

 

[Arpa]

Dear Armat, I must thank you, unlikr your compatriot David Davidian of Cambridge, Mass. you don't bring us what Mhmet said this, what Mustafa said that or what Fatma says.

Forgive me for saying this. Slowly but surely you are showing symptoms of the Patty Hearst/Stockholm Syndrome.** Please search an find what thosesmean.

The first thing I would do is stop talking, trying to reason with those turds hose main purpose is to confuse us and derail our "train" of thought. AS to numbers . Who is the accountant? Just as in philology- Who says what is G and what is not! Is it because we claim 1,500,000 were massacred and they say it was 1,499,499? One less to qualify as G?

As to numbers and words. Can we ask them where and when they were certified as CPA-s, and got their PHD in statistics, not to mention their PHD in linguistics to diffeentiate between g and G.

** Just in case. That is when the abductee/hostage is indoctrinated and begins to sympathize with the abductors/hostage takers.

Edited October 31, 2007 by Arpa

[Armat]

Dear Armat,

Forgive me for saying this. Slowly but surely you are showing symptoms of the Patty Hearst/Oslo Syndrome.** Please search an find what thosesmean.

The first thing I would do is stop talking, trying to reason with those turds hose main purpose is to confuse us and derail our "train" of thought. AS to numbers . Who is the accountant? Just as in philology- Who says what is G and what is not! Is it because we claim 1,500,000 were massacred and they say it was 1,499,499? One less to qualify as G?

** Just in case. That is when the abductee/hostage is indoctrinated and begins to sympathize with the abductors/hostage takers.

Dear Arpa

I simply what to know the truth as close to the truth as possible.It's not the numbers but the context which interest me.We are brainwashed to think of the Turks as barbarians, savages etc and yet we did prosper better under Ottomans then under fellow christens Byzantines who were too eager to kill,tax and subdue our identity.

To understand the Turks in some measure is to understand ourselves and our shortfalls.Like I said its just a private desire to know what really happened and I can stop posting on this topic here.Its no problem.

[Armat]

Where did you find this figure? Buy the accounts I read, the majority of Armenians fighting for the Russians were from the Russian side of the border. Yes, there were pockets of Armenians that sided with the Russian troops once fighting began, but there wasn't any significant armed/organized resistance to the Ottoman army within the empire. Also don't forget to take into account the reasons that motivated any defectors - and these are several...

Title: General Andranik and the Armenian Revolutionary Movement

Author: Antranig Chalabian

 

Goes in great detail about that whole period and pathetic way we lost Kars basically without even firing a shot.Lot of Armenians refused to fight even though we had better equipment and we had more soldiers.We often brag about our military victories but at Kars we simply did not fight.Turks were better organized and were motivationed.

Its a great book.True eye opener.

 

[ED]

yet we did prosper better under Ottomans then under fellow christens Byzantines who were too eager to kill,tax and subdue our identity.

 

 

under is the word which i have a problem with, geo-politics was, is, and will be our most strongest asset or worst enemy

i have looked at the world map many times and yet i can not find a peace of land which is most desirable, wanted as western Armenia, aka anatolia.

 

you see bro, first we have to free our selfs from the slave mentality and look at us as the masters of our lands, i don't expect Turkey to hand out historical Armenia in a silver plater but history has shown they all come and go,

 

I suggest you read Armen Ayvazian fr a wile, this guy is amazing and right to the point.

 

i could go on and write pages which led to AG, did we kill turks? yes of course we did, mistakes were done? of course, but the hourendes crime against humanity as AG does not even come close in comparison which you make.

 

here is one question, can you tell me why Hitler went nuts and killes 6?? million Jews in WWII?

[Armat]

under is the word which i have a problem with, geo-politics was, is, and will be our most strongest asset or worst enemy

i have looked at the world map many times and yet i can not find a peace of land which is most desirable, wanted as western Armenia, aka anatolia.

 

you see bro, first we have to free our selfs from the slave mentality and look at us as the masters of our lands, i don't expect Turkey to hand out historical Armenia in a silver plater but history has shown they all come and go,

 

I suggest you read Armen Ayvazian fr a wile, this guy is amazing and right to the point.

 

i could go on and write pages which led to AG, did we kill turks? yes of course we did, mistakes were done? of course, but the hourendes crime against humanity as AG does not even come close in comparison which you make.

 

here is one question, can you tell me why Hitler went nuts and killes 6?? million Jews in WWII?

Ed

Could you send me the book?If you are done reading?

you see bro, first we have to free our selfs from the slave mentality and look at us as the masters of our lands, i don't expect Turkey to hand out historical Armenia in a silver plater but history has shown they all come and go,

The land we already have people are busy leaving Armenia.Real population number of RA could be as little as 2million now.If we truly exercise healthy nationalism then we should be investing and helping Armenia prosper.There are reports mostly by Turks that up to 100k illigal Armenians are working in Turkey.That's reality that needs to be focused. I can argue that we have plenty of land but not enough people on them.How can we even think about what we lost when what we have at present is needing urgent attention.

 

Anyway good to hear your thoughts.By the way what about the Jews and Hitler...

 

 

[DominO123]

Armat, I'll place this to rest on the first occasion. I had many stuff to do today. I have not forgotten.

[hagopn]

We do not need simple genocide scholars, we need people who are specialised in the methodology of denial, the way they deny, those who will bother going deep in their work and debunk them.

 

We need new type of works, specifically on the way it is denied and the debunking of those works. And while I had started to write about a hundred page on McCarthy and droped it, this is too much work without being paid for the job. For scholars it is more difficult to write those sort of works, because it is not all to research records, one must scrutinise the denialist literature pieces by pieces and debunk the sofistication.

 

We seem to have the brainpower at our disposal, but no initiative.

 

Among your cited sources are the standard David Davidian archival material: the memoirs of de Nogales, Nansen, and so on. Are you in touch with the fellow?

 

Davdian has done a lot of archival work and has been promising to have a website to make this available since 1993. His easily bruised ego has incapacitated an otherwise great genocide studies scholar and leader.

 

George Aghjayan, another very competent amateur scholar on the genocide, has torn to shred Justin the Prostitute's so-called "demography," starting with GA's own province of Palu/Balu. He has presented his papers in various conferences, including the UCLA conference on Tigranakert and the relevant villayets.

 

We have yet another veritable genius, no exagggeration, in a chap named Artur Martirossyan, whose political analysis and photographic memory on particularly Artsakh related archival material has caused mental paralysis in many a Turko-Azeri detractor or their pimped out prostitutes.

 

Where are the works of these people?

 

What is a good amount of pay for anyone to take the intituative?

 

Whereabouts are you?