Armenian Population After 1915 Total?

[Arpa]

Thanks for your reply.It helps somewhat but not totally.

 

Arpa

 

Can you help me?

Yes Armat, listen to Yervant. Don't get in ny argument or debate with them. Thwy are not looking to educated. They have several tricks, the most popular are word games and numbers game. It was, it was not genocide by definition since the latter means total extermination of a race or species and as long as there may be even one living Armenian then it was total, whnce not genocide. The other popular game is numbers. WE say it was 1.5 million therefor a genocide, they say it was only 1,499,499 therefor not a genocide.

And as to numbers at that time, it all depends who's doing the counting and what their aim is. WE already know that that so called science of statistics is one the most subjective, if I had my way I would rename it the "Science of Lies", you'll be surprised how the means and the end of statistical sesearch is manipulated to fit one's agenda.

 

Those numbers may have been posted here at various times. It will be very difficult to find.

However get a hold of Richard Hovannisian's book "Armenia on the road to Independenc 1918". There is a whole chapter about the subject.

Edited October 16, 2007 by Arpa

[Armat]

Yes Armat, listen to Yervant. Don't get in ny argument or debate with them. Thwy are not looking to educated. They have several tricks, the most popular are word games and numbers game. It was, it was not genocide by definition since the latter means total extermination of a race or species and as long as there may be even one living Armenian then it was total, whnce not genocide. The other popular game is numbers. WE say it was 1.5 million therefor a genocide, they say it was only 1,499,499 therefor not a genocide.

And as to numbers at that time, it all depends who's doing the counting and what their aim is. WE already know that that so called science of statistics is one the most subjective, if I had my way I would rename it the "Science of Lies", you'll be surprised how the means and the end of statistical sesearch is manipulated to fit one's agenda.

 

Those numbers may have been posted here at various times. It will be very difficult to find.

However get a hold of Richard Hovannisian's book "Armenia on the road to Independenc 1918". There is a whole chapter about the subject.

Thanks Arpa

You are right I wasted valuable time with these fanatics but at times I love basting their balls.In some way it has forced me to look at things differently.

I read once you said that "who fking needs their approval (AG) anyway"

I liked that.It frees US from being a victim to being independent from that past.

 

Thanks for replying

[Arpa]

Thanks Arpa

You are right I wasted valuable time with these fanatics but at times I love basting their balls.In some way it has forced me to look at things differently.

I read once you said that "who fking needs their approval (AG) anyway"

I liked that.It frees US from being a victim to being independent from that past.

 

Thanks for replying

In addition to all that. Just as those idiots in Ankara change their language every other day, they decide to not use the G word in any shape or form, whether in quoations or qulatified with other words, we should also rededfine our language. It is not QUANTITY that determines whether it was G or not, it is QUALITY. When a state massacres its population it is genocide. When highly trained armies massacre helpless people, man, woman and child it is genocide. When a formal army, armed to the teeth with the latest weapons and instrument of war massacres its unarmed and peaceful population it is genocide. When a government expels its disenfranchised and helpless citizens, commits ethnic cleanisng, appropriates their wealth and properties, their homes and lands without even paying a penny then it is GENOCIDE. It is a amtter of QUALITY, so let us stop talking QUANTITY and stop playing silly numbers game.

As to "busting their balls". They ain't seen n'tin yet!!

Just as Ms Pelosi said, we have always argued that it was not the right time for one reason or another. When is the right time?

It seems like, for whatever reason and circumstances, this time is the right time. Those turkeys have never before had their feathers so ruffled.

[DominO123]

Armat, thanks dude, I remembered the old days when I was doing some punching.

[Arpa]

According to the above mentioned book, in 1912, after all the massacres of 1895 qnd 1909 there were an estimeted 2.3 millinon Armenians in what is known as turkish Armenia. Not counting those in the so called Russian Armenia, Iran, Russia proper and other near and far diaspora. If we put them all together it will well over 3 million. 1.5 million were massacred leaving approximately 1.5 million. During those years world population was 1 billion, it is over 6 billion now, a 6 fold increase, based on the figures of today when it is estimated that we are 8 to 9 million, then those figures will be correct, that is 1.5x6=8 or 9.

I have seen more figures in another book that I cannot locate now, but if my memory serves me right those figures were more like @si @sav, comparing what the Armenians said as opposd to what the turks said.

[DominO123]

According to the above mentioned book, in 1912, after all the massacres of 1895 qnd 1909 there were an estimeted 2.3 millinon Armenians in what is known as turkish Armenia. Not counting those in the so called Russian Armenia, Iran, Russia proper and other near and far diaspora. If we put them all together it will well over 3 million. 1.5 million were massacred leaving approximately 1.5 million. During those years world population was 1 billion, it is over 6 billion now, a 6 fold increase, based on the figures of today when it is estimated that we are 8 to 9 million, then those figures will be correct, that is 1.5x6=8 or 9.

I have seen more figures in another book that I cannot locate now, but if my memory serves me right those figures were more like @si @sav, comparing what the Armenians said as opposd to what the turks said.

 

Nope, if you assume 3 million, you are basically claiming based on those figures that there was only 700,000 Armenians outside of the Ottoman, which is ridiculously low. Besides the population deficit was above 1.5 million when taking in account a total loss which would include Tsarist Russia.

[Armat]

Armat, thanks dude, I remembered the old days when I was doing some punching.

 

Great Job on that C. Funny how quickly he folded up.

 

Personally I love Turkey to Attack the Kurdistan.Bigger the better.Finally US can shake off the parasite draining our treasury.That money should go to Armenia!!

 

Arpa

Thanks for your response!! I bet you are watch Turkey-Kurd invasion closely.I hope they attack!!

[Armat]

How do you come up with the "required" number for population growth?

Barev Vava Jan

I can't answer your question honestly.Turks multiply like rats 1920 10 million now almost 80 million but Armenians generally have less kids but still 2.5 million should be enough to reach 8 million now.

 

regards

 

[Hellektor]

«թուրքիա» կոչուած երկրի բնակչութիւնը 10 միլիոն էր՝ 1920 թուականին, այժմ իր գաղութներու հետ միասին 85-90 միլիոն է թուրքերի քանակը: Եթէ թուրքիոյ բնակչութիւնը աճած է 9 անգամ, ինչու հայի չաճի 9 անգամ, որ ըստ Դ տուեալի, պիտի ըլլար սապէս.-2,5 միլիոն x 9= 22.5 միլիոն, քսան երկուք ու կէս միլիոն հայ պիտի ըլլար, այն ալ Ցեղասպանութիւնէն ետք: Իսկ եթէ Ցեղասպանութիւն տեղի չունենար.-4,2 milion x 9 = 37.8 միլիոն պիտի ըլլայինք:

We shouldn't fall in the trap of the Numbers Game, the favorite game of genocide deniers. They killed an entire nation. They wiped the entire Christian population under the Ottoman "empire" of the time. If killing six thousand able-bodied MEN, leftovers of the Ottomans, allegedly killed by Serbs constitute genocide then what does it matter whether 1.5 million or 600,000 or 300,000 were killed? They killed all that was available. Had there been thirty million they would have killed all of them as well.

 

I always tell the Turdish deniers that had there not been the genocide of 1894-1923, forgetting for a moment 9 centuries of genocide ever since the Turkish vermin infested our home, there would be 30 million Armenians living in their homeland of thousands of years today. Therefore the Turds did not kill 1.5 million Armenians but 30 million.

[vava]

Barev Vava Jan

I can't answer your question honestly.Turks multiply like rats 1920 10 million now almost 80 million but Armenians generally have less kids but still 2.5 million should be enough to reach 8 million now.

 

regards

 

Along the same period, the American population grew from about 100 milliion to 300 million. So your friends arguments about drawing parallels with population growth rates makes no sense at all. Different cultures, differing circumstances will naturally lead to varying growth rates. Armenians were being scattered in all directions, into new communities with different cultural values. It was not a homogeneous population, and that sort of comparative analysis seems to me to be very unscientific - not to mention "census" data at the time can hardly be considered precise.

Cheers Armat jan!

[Takoush]

We shouldn't fall in the trap of the Numbers Game, the favorite game of genocide deniers. They killed an entire nation. They wiped the entire Christian population under the Ottoman "empire" of the time. If killing six thousand able-bodied MEN, leftovers of the Ottomans, allegedly killed by Serbs constitute genocide then what does it matter whether 1.5 million or 600,000 or 300,000 were killed? They killed all that was available. Had there been thirty million they would have killed all of them as well.

 

I always tell the Turdish deniers that had there not been the genocide of 1894-1923, forgetting for a moment 9 centuries of genocide ever since the Turkish vermin infested our home, there would be 30 million Armenians living in their homeland of thousands of years today. Therefore the Turds did not kill 1.5 million Armenians but 30 million.

Yes true true, you are right to say that Hellektor!!!!

 

Wasn't Talaat the blood sucker animal who said that after giving orders and practically annihilating a whole nation, that as a nation we will not be able to collect and gather ourselves for 50 years to have any demands for our rights or for our lands.

 

Արիւնարբու եւ սռիկայ Թալէաթը ըսեր է թէ մենք հայերս այս կոտորածէն յետոյ չպիտի կարենանք գլուխնիս վեր հանել եւ հաւաքուիլ 50 տարի իբրեւ ազգ որ կարենանք մեր իրաւունքները կամ մեր հողերը պահանջել:

 

Indeed Talaat accomplished his bloodsucking deeds by giving orders to annihilate a whole nation; "the Armenian nation".

 

 

 

Edited October 18, 2007 by Anahid Takouhi

[DominO123]

Along the same period, the American population grew from about 100 milliion to 300 million. So your friends arguments about drawing parallels with population growth rates makes no sense at all. Different cultures, differing circumstances will naturally lead to varying growth rates. Armenians were being scattered in all directions, into new communities with different cultural values. It was not a homogeneous population, and that sort of comparative analysis seems to me to be very unscientific - not to mention "census" data at the time can hardly be considered precise.

Cheers Armat jan!

 

We don't need to look elsewhere, we have the data for Armenia and which makes perfect sense.

[Armat]

We shouldn't fall in the trap of the Numbers Game, the favorite game of genocide deniers. They killed an entire nation. They wiped the entire Christian population under the Ottoman "empire" of the time. If killing six thousand able-bodied MEN, leftovers of the Ottomans, allegedly killed by Serbs constitute genocide then what does it matter whether 1.5 million or 600,000 or 300,000 were killed? They killed all that was available. Had there been thirty million they would have killed all of them as well.

 

I always tell the Turdish deniers that had there not been the genocide of 1894-1923, forgetting for a moment 9 centuries of genocide ever since the Turkish vermin infested our home, there would be 30 million Armenians living in their homeland of thousands of years today. Therefore the Turds did not kill 1.5 million Armenians but 30 million.

 

Numbers do make a difference!! Turks claim Armenians killed them too.According to Havaness K 1st prime minister and bio I read on Andranik we did kill civilians too but lot smaller scale.It could be estimated around 40k so 40k-1.5 million both genocides? Obviously not but Serbs killing 6 k muslims was branded as genocide as well.

 

Don't misunderstand me I know what genocide is but numbers do matter.

[Armat]

You guys won't believe this but this Turk wrote this today.In the past he denied the AG but we kept hammering in and finally-well read on

 

i have done a great deal of researh after reading of hrant dinks message, and i have come to a disturbing conclusion.

my conclusion is that turkey may be in the wrong in this whole genocide issue.

its very hard to see things through a cultural bias; agknoleging people who could be your parents or relatives were wrong in the past, and still are. but after trying very hard and looking at 3rd person sources, i have come to the conclusion despite being turkish, that the armenian genocide did indeed happen.

i am not saying the armenians as a whole were innocent; im certain many turks were killed by armenian radicals siding with the enemy, but the killing of a whole population of civilians to control this is inherently wrong. ive also seen evidence that turkey is indeed surpressing kurdish culture and that of those armenians who still live in turkey. as people, there is nothing better than to be free of bias and free of immature notions of superiority. i therefore urge all the other turks on this forum to examine things from the ARMENIAN standpoint, and not to dismiss everything as propaganda- for the third party eye witness account must hold at least a grain of this terrifying truth.

a person who supports a nation doing wrongs and doesnt educate himself about it is guilty. turkeys government is not perfect, never was. examine things through foriegn eyes please, and make an honest judgement like i have tried to do. for this is an extremely important issue, because of its moral implications. imagine if we turks are wrong, and the armenian civilians really were massacred by a failing tyranical government. we should seek the truth for ourselfs, and not blindly follow state propaganda

 

wow

[DominO123]

Not the first, neither the last. Unfortunitly the level of this conversion is lower than the birth rate in Turkey.

 

You guys won't believe this but this Turk wrote this today.In the past he denied the AG but we kept hammering in and finally-well read on

 

i have done a great deal of researh after reading of hrant dinks message, and i have come to a disturbing conclusion.

my conclusion is that turkey may be in the wrong in this whole genocide issue.

its very hard to see things through a cultural bias; agknoleging people who could be your parents or relatives were wrong in the past, and still are. but after trying very hard and looking at 3rd person sources, i have come to the conclusion despite being turkish, that the armenian genocide did indeed happen.

i am not saying the armenians as a whole were innocent; im certain many turks were killed by armenian radicals siding with the enemy, but the killing of a whole population of civilians to control this is inherently wrong. ive also seen evidence that turkey is indeed surpressing kurdish culture and that of those armenians who still live in turkey. as people, there is nothing better than to be free of bias and free of immature notions of superiority. i therefore urge all the other turks on this forum to examine things from the ARMENIAN standpoint, and not to dismiss everything as propaganda- for the third party eye witness account must hold at least a grain of this terrifying truth.

a person who supports a nation doing wrongs and doesnt educate himself about it is guilty. turkeys government is not perfect, never was. examine things through foriegn eyes please, and make an honest judgement like i have tried to do. for this is an extremely important issue, because of its moral implications. imagine if we turks are wrong, and the armenian civilians really were massacred by a failing tyranical government. we should seek the truth for ourselfs, and not blindly follow state propaganda

 

wow

 

[AK-47]

i am not saying the armenians as a whole were innocent; im certain many turks were killed by armenian radicals siding with the enemy

Good, now on to work on this sentence which is hinting that we deserved the punishment or like there was some "co-genocide"...

 

How can they even consider us traitors to them when we were forcefully conquered into the empire? We didn't have a choice when they came and put their filthy cock all over sacred Armenian land. How can he even say that when Armenian able bodied men were drafted into Ottoman army and fighting along their ranks just as the Russian empire citizens of Armenia were doing the same? How about when we were butchered and pogrommed by the Red Sultan? Adana 1909 anyone? Akh...

[Armat]

Good, now on to work on this sentence which is hinting that we deserved the punishment or like there was some "co-genocide"...

 

How can they even consider us traitors to them when we were forcefully conquered into the empire? We didn't have a choice when they came and put their filthy cock all over sacred Armenian land. How can he even say that when Armenian able bodied men were drafted into Ottoman army and fighting along their ranks just as the Russian empire citizens of Armenia were doing the same? How about when we were butchered and pogrommed by the Red Sultan? Adana 1909 anyone? Akh...

 

He is like a "budding little plant" We can't stomp on it so early.Trust me if we do things right we can have even more dedicated Turks fighting other denialists.

We can not approach this issue like we are fanatics.Little tact goes long way.

 

Regards

 

[Johannes]

Quote from Hellektor

 

I always tell the Turdish deniers that had there not been the genocide of 1894-1923, forgetting for a moment 9 centuries of genocide ever since the Turkish vermin infested our home, there would be 30 million Armenians living in their homeland of thousands of years today. Therefore the Turds did not kill 1.5 million Armenians but 30 million

 

This is exactly what I am trying to explain to the audience (A. & not only them). Thank you for the explanation. Ցեղասպանութիւն մի ազգի, կամ մշակութային մի խումբի հանդէպ գործուած համարւում է նոյնիսկ եթէ նոյն խումբի արանց եւ կանանց միջեւ ամուսնութիւնը արգելուի: Մեր պարագայում՝ եւ գաղթ եւ կրօնափոխում, եւ լեզուափոխում, եւ ջարդ, եւ աւանդուած մշակոյթի եւ հնութեանց քանդում, յիշատակի քանդում, անձնաթուղթի փոփոխում, մի ամբողջ երկրի նկարագրի ժողովրդագրութեան (demography) փոփոխում:

 

 

Quote from AK-47

 

How can they even consider us traitors to them when we were forcefully conquered into the empire? We didn't have a choice when they came and put their filthy cock all over sacred Armenian land. How can he even say that when Armenian able bodied men were drafted into Ottoman army and fighting along their ranks just as the Russian empire citizens of Armenia were doing the same? How about when we were butchered and pogrommed by the Red Sultan? Adana 1909 anyone? Akh

Մարդը փորձում է հաւասարակշիռ մօտեցում ունենալ. Երկու կողմի կարծիքին էլ տեղ տալով: Այս երկու կողմի կարծիքին տեղ տալու միջազգային լրատւութեան «անաչառութիւնը» ք...նում է խնդրի էութեան վրայ: Քանիցս լսեցի այդ լրատւութեանց փորքշուկը՝ հայերի դաւաճանութեան մասին: Իմ պապս կռուել է այդ գ..երենների համար ամբողջ 4 տարի, 3 տարի էլ գերի է մնացել է բրիտանացիների մօտ: Գերիների փոխանակման յետեւանքով դարձել է հայրենի քաղաք (այդ ժամանակ ֆրանսիացիների հսկողութեան ներքեւ էր) եւ լսել է ականատեսներից. իր ընտանիքի փճացումը՝ հարաւի անապատներում: Պապիկիս պատմութիւնը, պատմութիւնն է նաեւ բազում հայերի, որոնք դժբախտաբար եղել են ցեղասպան ազգի, ցեղասպան պետութեան հպատակ եւ օրինապահ քաղաքացիները:

 

Ասենք ամերիկայում բեն լադենի յայտնութեան մասին հաւաստի տեղեկութիւն լինի, սակայն նրա ճշգրիտ որտեղ լինելը չիմացուի, ի՞նչ անել...55 հատ միջուկային ռումբ պայթեցնե՞լ Ամերիկայի բոլոր նահանգների վրայ. ջնջելու համար բեն լադենի գոյութիւնը???

 

Տարեթիւ՝ 1919, քաղաք՝ Անտափ, վայր՝ թուրքական մզկիթ, պահ՝ ուրբաթ օրուայ աղօթքից ետք: Շոհմալենց Սարգիսը թուրքերին լրտեսելու յանձնարարութիւն ստանալով, գնում է մզկիթ. տաճկի շորեր հագած, եւ ականջալուր է լինում այս զրոյցին.-

 

*Խոջա, մենք այսքան գեաւուր մորթեցինք, երեխայ կին ալեւոր, միթէ մեղք չէ՞ ալլահի օրէնքով:

 

Խոջան վկայաբերելով պէղամբարի վերագրուած ասքը. ասում է.-

 

-Տղաս, ենթադրենք պարտէզում պառկած ես, եւ յանկարծ ոտդ կծի մի մրջիւն, ի՞նչ կանես: Կը զատե՞ս ոտդ կծողը մրջիւնը մնացեալներից, թէ՝ ոտիդ վրայ ման եկող բոլոր մրջիւնները կը սրբես վրայիցդ:

 

Ահա սա է եղածը Հայաստանում եւ նախկին ոսոխման կայսրութիւնում: Եթէ 20 հայ բարձրացել է լեռ սրտնեղելով քուրդ բեկի, թուրք աղայի հալածանքից, սա չի նշանակում, որ ողջ ազգը ապստամբել է: Եթէ ոսոխման բանակի 20 հայ զինւոր, տեսանելով ոչնչացումը ցեղակից զինւորների, անցել են ռուսական կողմ, սա չի նշանակում, որ ողջ ոսոխման բանակի հարիւր հազարաւոր հայ զինւորներն ու սպաները դաւաճանել են գ...երենների պետութեանը: Այդ զինւորները, տեղ մը Դեղին Եղեգում (սարիղամիշ) փրկել են էնվեր կոչուածի կեանքը: Առհասարակ թուրքի հետ ցեղասպանութեան թեմա չզրուցելը աւելի առողջապահական է, քան խօսելը: Չէ՞ որ ոգի ի բռին ջանում ենք ապացուցել՝ ապացուցուածը, մեկնաբանել՝ յայտնին, արդարութիւն հայցել՝ անարդար աշխարհից:

 

Արփայի ըսածին պէս.-.Յետոյ ի՞նչ/ what next?, ի՞նչ է մեր ազգի օգուտը այս ամէնից: Մի կերպ պիտի առնչել Հայաստանի հզօրացման, Արցախի հաստատմանը եւ այլ նպատակների համար: Արցախը հայի պատիւի վերականգնումն է:

 

 

[Takoush]

Մէկ կարեւոր բան կը մնայ մեզ ընել Արցախի վերականգնումին հետ միասին: Հայաստանի կը մնայ մեր հազարաւոր դարերու վզին պարտքը պահանչել:

 

ՄԵՐ ԱՐԴԱՐ ԵՒ ԼՐԻՒ ՀՈՂԵՐԸ ՊԱՀԱՆՉԵԼ!!!!

[Arpa]

====

ՄԵՐ ԱՐԴԱՐ ԵՒ ԼՐԻՒ ՀՈՂԵՐԸ ՊԱՀԱՆՉԵԼ!!!![/size] [/color] [/b]

Այո ,Այո.

Գիտենք որ ՄԻԱՅՆ ԶԷՆՔՈՎ ԿԱՅ ՀԱՅՈՒՆ ՓՐԿՈՒԹԻՒՆ

Ենթադրենք որ զէնքը ունենք. Ուր են զինուրները?

Տարտղնուած Աբերտինէն մինչեւ Ֆինլանդիա!!!

ՁԱՅՆ ՄԸ ՀՆՉԵՑ ԷՔՈՒԱԴՈՐԻ ՀԱՅՈՑ ԼԵՌՆԵՐԷՆ**

Andean mountains of Equador are thousands of miles removed from the Andranikian mountains of Zangezur.

 

**Էքուադոր=Erzurum

Edited October 18, 2007 by Arpa

[Takoush]

Այո ,Այո.

Գիտենք որ ՄԻԱՅՆ ԶԷՆՔՈՎ ԿԱՅ ՀԱՅՈՒՆ ՓՐԿՈՒԹԻՒՆ

Ենթադրենք որ զէնքը ունենք. Ուր են զինուրները?

Տարտղնուած Աբերտինէն մինչեւ Ֆինլանդիա!!!

ՁԱՅՆ ՄԸ ՀՆՉԵՑ ԷՔՈՒԱԴՈՐԻ ՀԱՅՈՑ ԼԵՌՆԵՐԷՆ**

Andean mountains of Equador are thousands of miles removed from the Andranikian mountains of Zangezur.

 

**Էքուադոր=Erzurum

Ոչ, ոչ. Սակայն կռուելու մասին խոսող չեղաւ այժմ.

 

Երբ ընդունուի չարդը օրէնսքիտականորէն Ամերիկայի ծեռակոյտէն այն ժամանակ Հայաստան կը պահանջէ իր արդար իրաւունքները:

 

 

 

 

[AVO]

Անահիտ jan chmtatses vor inch vor meke hyerin petka hogh veradartsni. Mer hoghere menak menk karogh enk vertsnel u miayn ujov. Amerikan, Europan, Russian yerpek turkits hogh chen vertsni u hyein tan. Mer hoghere mere klinen yerp vor Turkian qandvi u menq mez hasanelike het vertsnenk.

[Takoush]

Անահիտ jan chmtatses vor inch vor meke hyerin petka hogh veradartsni. Mer hoghere menak menk karogh enk vertsnel u miayn ujov. Amerikan, Europan, Russian yerpek turkits hogh chen vertsni u hyein tan. Mer hoghere mere klinen yerp vor Turkian qandvi u menq mez hasanelike het vertsnenk.

Բայց Աւօ գիդես թէ ինչո՞ւ Թուրքիան քանիցս կը պայքարի որ չընդունուի Ջարդը, որովհետեւ շատ լաւ գիտէ Թուրքը որ մեզ պիտի պարտավորուի մեր հողերը վերադարցնել:

 

Ուրիշները դրամ պահանջեցին, բայց մենք մեր հողերը պէտք է պահանջենք: Ասիկա լաւ քիտէ Թուրքը ատոր համար կը պայքարի տարիներէ ի վեր ընդունելու իր ըրած ջարդը:

 

 

 

 

Edited October 18, 2007 by Anahid Takouhi