Robert Fisk: The Forgotten Holocaust

[vava]

Another article from Robert Fisk.

 

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Robert Fisk: The forgotten holocaust

The killing of 1.5 million Armenians by the Ottoman Turks during the First World War remains one of the bloodiest and most contentious episodes of the 20th century. Robert Fisk visits Yerevan, and unearths hitherto unpublished images of the first modern genocide

Published: 28 August 2007

 

The photographs, never before published, capture the horrors of the first Holocaust of the 20th century. They show a frightened people on the move – men, women and children, some with animals, others on foot, walking over open ground outside the city of Erzerum in 1915, at the beginning of their death march. We know that none of the Armenians sent from Erzerum – in what is today north-eastern Turkey – survived. Most of the men were shot, the children – including, no doubt, the young boy or girl with a headscarf in the close-up photograph – died of starvation or disease. The young women were almost all raped, the older women beaten to death, the sick and babies left by the road to die.

 

The unique photographs are a stunning witness to one of the most terrible events of our times. Their poor quality – the failure of the camera to cope with the swirl and movement of the Armenian deportees in the close-up picture, the fingerprint on the top of the second – lend them an undeniable authenticity. They come from the archives of the German Deutsche Bank, which was in 1915 providing finance for the maintenance and extension of the Turkish railway system. One incredible photograph – so far published in only two specialist magazines, in Germany and in modern-day Armenia – actually shows dozens of doomed Armenians, including children, crammed into cattle trucks for their deportation. The Turks stuffed 90 Armenians into each of these wagons – the same average the Nazis achieved in their transports to the death camps of Eastern Europe during the Jewish Holocaust.

 

Hayk Demoyan, director of the grey-stone Museum of the Armenian Genocide in the foothills just outside Yerevan, the capital of present-day Armenia, stares at the photographs on his computer screen in bleak silence. A university lecturer in modern Turkish history, he is one of the most dynamic Armenian genocide researchers inside the remains of Armenia, which is all that was left after the Turkish slaughter; it suffered a further 70 years of terror as part of the Soviet Union. "Yes, you can have these pictures, he says. "We are still discovering more. The Germans took photographs and these pictures even survived the Second World War. Today, we want our museum to be a place of collective memory, a memorisation of trauma. Our museum is for Turks as well as Armenians. This is also [the Turks'] history."

 

The story of the last century's first Holocaust – Winston Churchill used this very word about the Armenian genocide years before the Nazi murder of six million Jews – is well known, despite the refusal of modern-day Turkey to acknowledge the facts. Nor are the parallels with Nazi Germany's persecution of the Jews idle ones. Turkey's reign of terror against the Armenian people was an attempt to destroy the Armenian race. While the Turks spoke publicly of the need to "resettle" their Armenian population – as the Germans were to speak later of the Jews of Europe – the true intentions of Enver *****'s Committee of Union and Progress in Constantinople were quite clear.

 

On 15 September 1915, for example (and a carbon of this document exists) Talaat *****, the Turkish Interior minister, cabled an instruction to his prefect in Aleppo about what he should do with the tens of thousands of Armenians in his city. "You have already been informed that the government... has decided to destroy completely all the indicated persons living in Turkey... Their existence must be terminated, however tragic the measures taken may be, and no regard must be paid to either age or sex, or to any scruples of conscience." These words are almost identical to those used by Himmler to his SS killers in 1941.

 

Taner Akcam, a prominent – and extremely brave – Turkish scholar who has visited the Yerevan museum, has used original Ottoman Turkish documents to authenticate the act of genocide. Now under fierce attack for doing so from his own government, he discovered in Turkish archives that individual Turkish officers often wrote "doubles" of their mass death-sentence orders, telegrams sent at precisely the same time that asked their subordinates to ensure there was sufficient protection and food for the Armenians during their "resettlement". This weirdly parallels the bureaucracy of Nazi Germany, where officials were dispatching hundreds of thousands of Jews to the gas chambers while assuring International Red Cross officials in Geneva that they were being well cared for and well fed.

 

Ottoman Turkey's attempt to exterminate an entire Christian race in the Middle East – the Armenians, descended from the residents of ancient Urartu, became the first Christian nation when their king Drtad converted from paganism in AD301 – is a history of almost unrelieved horror at the hands of Turkish policemen and soldiers, and Kurdish tribesmen.

 

In 1915, Turkey claimed that its Armenian population was supporting Turkey's Christian enemies in Britain, France and Russia. Several historians – including Churchill, who was responsible for the doomed venture at Gallipoli – have asked whether the Turkish victory there did not give them the excuse to turn against the Christian Armenians of Asia Minor, a people of mixed Persian, Roman and Byzantine blood, with what Churchill called "merciless fury". Armenian scholars have compiled a map of their people's persecution and deportation, a document that is as detailed as the maps of Europe that show the railway lines to Auschwitz and Treblinka; the Armenians of Erzerum, for example, were sent on their death march to Terjan and then to Erzinjan and on to Sivas province. The men would be executed by firing squad or hacked to death with axes outside villages, the women and children then driven on into the desert to die of thirst or disease or exhaustion or gang-rape. In one mass grave I myself discovered on a hillside at Hurgada in present-day Syria, there were thousands of skeletons, mostly of young people – their teeth were perfect. I even found a 100-year-old Armenian woman who had escaped the slaughter there and identified the hillside for me.

 

Hayk Demoyan sits in his air-conditioned museum office, his computer purring softly on the desk, and talks of the need to memorialise this huge suffering. "You can see it in the writing of each survivor," he says. "When visitors come here from the diaspora – from America and Europe, Lebanon and Syria, people whose parents or grandparents died in our genocide – our staff feel with these people. They see these people become very upset, there are tears and some get a bit crazy after seeing the exhibition. This can be very difficult for us, psychologically. The stance of the current Turkish government [in denying the genocide] is proving they are proud of what their ancestors did. They are saying they are pleased with what the Ottomans did. Yet today, we are hearing that a lot of places in the world are like goldmines of archive materials to continue our work – even here in Yerevan. Every day, we are coming across new photographs or documents."

 

The pictures Demoyan gives to The Independent were taken by employees of Deutsche Bank in 1915 to send to their head office in Berlin as proof of their claims that the Turks were massacring their Armenian population. They can be found in the Deutsche Bank Historical Institute – Oriental Section (the photograph of the Armenian deportees across the desert published in The Independent today, for example, is registered photo number 1704 and the 1915 caption reads: "Deportation Camp near Erzerum.")

 

A German engineer in Kharput sent back a now-famous photogaph of Armenian men being led to their execution by armed Turkish police officers. The banking officials were appalled that the Ottoman Turks were using – in effect – German money to send Armenians to their death by rail. The new transportation system was supposed to be used for military purposes, not for genocide.

 

German soldiers sent to Turkey to reorganise the Ottoman army also witnessed these atrocities. Armin Wegner, an especially courageous German second lieutenant in the retinue of Field Marshal von der Goltz, took a series of photographs of dead and dying Armenian women and children. Other German officers regarded the genocide with more sinister interest. Some of these men, as Armenian scholar Vahakn Dadrian discovered, turn up 26 years later as more senior officers conducting the mass killing of Jews in German-occupied Russia.

 

Computers have transformed the research of institutions like the Yerevan museum. Poorly funded scholarship has been replaced by a treasure-house of information that Demoyan is going to publish in scholarly magazines. "We have information that some Germans who were in Armenia in 1915 started selling genocide pictures for personal collections when they returned home... In Russia, a man from St Petersburg also informed us that he had seen handwritten memoirs from 1940 in which the writer spoke of Russian photographs of Armenian bodies in Van and Marash in 1915 and 1916." Russian Tsarist troops marched into the eastern Turkish city of Van and briefly liberated its doomed Armenian inhabitants. Then the Russians retreated after apparently taking these pictures of dead Armenians in outlying villages.

 

Stalin also did his bit to erase the memory of the massacres. The Armenian Tashnag party, so prominent in Armenian politics in the Ottoman empire, was banned by the Soviets. "In the 1930s," Demoyan says, "everyone destroyed handwritten memoirs of the genocide, photographs, land deeds – otherwise they could have been associated by the Soviet secret police with Tashnag material." He shakes his head at this immeasurable loss. "But now we are finding new material in France and new pictures taken by humanitarian workers of the time. We know there were two or three documentary films from 1915, one shot approvingly by a Kurdish leader to show how the Turks "dealt" with Armenians. There is huge new material in Norway of the deportations in Mush from a Norwegian missionary who was there in 1915."

 

There is, too, a need to archive memoirs and books that were published in the aftermath of the genocide but discarded or forgotten in the decades that followed. In 1929, for example, a small-circulation book was published in Boston entitled From Dardanelles to Palestine by Captain Sarkis Torossian. The author was a highly decorated officer in the Turkish army who fought with distinction and was wounded at Gallipoli. He went on to fight the Allies in Palestine but was appalled to find thousands of dying Armenian refugees in the deserts of northern Syria. In passages of great pain, he discovers his sister living in rags and tells how his fiancée Jemileh died in his arms. "I raised Jemileh in my arms, the pain and terror in her eyes melted until they were bright as stars again, stars in an oriental night... and so she died, as a dream passing." Torossian changed sides, fought with the Arabs, and even briefly met Lawrence of Arabia – who did not impress him.

 

"The day following my entry into Damascus, the remainder of the Arab army entered along with their loads and behind them on a camel came one they called... the paymaster. This camel rider I learned was Captain Lawrence... Captain Lawrence to my knowledge did nothing to foment the Arab revolution, nor did he play any part in the Arab military tactics. When first I heard of him he was a paymaster, nothing more. And so he was to Prince Emir Abdulah (sic), brother of King Feisal, whom I knew. I do not write in disparagement. I write as a fighting man. Some must fight and others pay." Bitterness, it seems, runs deep. Torossian eventually re-entered Ottoman Turkey as an Armenian officer with the French army of occupation in the Cilicia region. But Kemalist guerrillas attacked the French, who then, Torossian suspects, gave weapons and ammunition to the Turks to allow the French army safe passage out of Cilicia. Betrayed, Torossian fled to relatives in America.

 

There is debate in Yerevan today as to why the diaspora Armenians appea r to care more about the genocide than the citizens of modern-day Armenia. Indeed, the Foreign minister of Armenia, Vardan Oskanian, actually told me that "days, weeks, even months go by" when he does not think of the genocide. One powerful argument put to me by an Armenian friend is that 70 years of Stalinism and official Soviet silence on the genocide deleted the historical memory in eastern Armenia – the present-day state of Armenia. Another argument suggests that the survivors of western Armenia – in what is now Turkey – lost their families and lands and still seek acknowledgement and maybe even restitution, while eastern Armenians did not lose their lands. Demoyan disputes all this.

 

"The fundamental problem, I think, is that in the diaspora many don't want to recognise our statehood," he says. "We are surrounded by two countries – Turkey and Azerbaijan – and we have to take our security into account; but not to the extent of damaging memory. Here we must be accurate. I have changed things in this museum. There were inappropriate things, comments about 'hot-bloodied'people, all the old clichés about Turks – they have now gone. The diaspora want to be the holders of our memories – but 60 per cent of the citizens of the Armenian state are "repatriates" – Armenians originally from the diaspora, people whose grandparents originally came from western Armenia. And remember that Turkish forces swept though part of Armenia after the 1915 genocide – right through Yerevan on their way to Baku. According to Soviet documentation in 1920, 200,000 Armenians died in this part of Armenia, 180,000 of them between 1918 and 1920." Indeed, there were further mass executions by the Turks in what is now the Armenian state. At Ghumri – near the centre of the devastating earthquake that preceded final liberation from the Soviet Union – there is a place known as the "Gorge of Slaughter", where in 1918 a whole village was massacred.

 

But I sensed some political problems up at the Yerevan museum – international as well as internal. While many Armenians acknowledge that their countrymen did commit individual revenge atrocities – around Van, for example – at the time of the genocide, a heavy burden of more modern responsibility lies with those who fought for Armenia against the Azeris in Nagorno-Karabakh in the early 1990s. This mountainous region east of the Armenian state saw fierce and sometimes cruel fighting in which Armenians massacred Turkish Azeri villagers. The Independent was one of the newspapers that exposed this.

 

Yet when I arrive at the massive genocide memorial next to the museum, I find the graves of five "heroes" of the Karabakh war. Here lies, for instance, Musher "Vosht" Mikhoyan, who was killed in 1991, and the remains of Samuel "Samo" Kevorkian, who died in action in 1992. However upright these warriors may have been, should those involved in the ghastly war in Kharabakh be associated with the integrity and truth of 1915? Do they not demean the history of Armenia's greatest suffering? Or were they – as I suspect – intended to suggest that the Karabakh war, which Armenia won, was revenge for the 1915 genocide? It's as if the Israelis placed the graves of the 1948 Irgun fighters – responsible for the massacres of Palestinians at Deir Yassin and other Arab villages – outside the Jewish Holocaust memorial at Yad Vashem near Jerusalem.

 

Officials later explain to me that these Kharabakh grave-sites were established at a moment of great emotion after the war and that today – while they might be inappropriate – it is difficult to ask the families of "Vosht" and "Samo" and the others to remove them to a more suitable location. Once buried, it is difficult to dig up the dead. Similarly, among the memorials left in a small park by visiting statesmen and politicians, there is a distinct difference in tone. Arab leaders have placed plaques in memory of the "genocide". Less courageous American congressman – who do not want to offend their Turkish allies – have placed plaques stating merely that they "planted this tree". The pro-American Lebanese Prime Minister Rafiq Hariri left his own memorial less than a year before he was assassinated in 2005. "Tree of Peace," it says. Which rather misses the point.

 

And yet it is the work of archivists that will continue to establish the truth. In Yerevan you can now buy excellent witness testimonies of the genocide by Westerners who were present during the Armenian Holocaust. One of them is by Tacy Atkinson, an American missionary who witnessed the deportation of her Armenian friends from the town of Kharput. On 16 July 1915, she recorded in her secret diary how "a boy has arrived in Mezreh in a bad state nervously. As I understand it he was with a crowd of women and children from some village... who joined our prisoners who went out June 23... The boy says that in the gorge this side of Bakir Maden the men and women were all shot and the leading men had their heads cut off afterwards... He escaped... and came here. His own mother was stripped and robbed and then shot... He says the valley smells so awful that one can hardly pass by now."

 

For fear the Turkish authorities might discover her diaries, Atkinson sometimes omitted events. In 1924 – when her diary, enclosed in a sealed trunk, at last returned to the United States, she wrote about a trip made to Kharput by her fellow missionaries. "The story of this trip I did not dare write," she scribbled in the margin. "They saw about 10,000 bodies."

 

Anatomy of a massacre: How the genocide unfolded

 

By Simon Usborne

 

An estimated 1.5 million Armenians died between 1915 and 1917, either at the hands of Turkish forces or of starvation. Exact figures are unknown, but each larger blob – at the site of a concentration camp or massacre – potentially represents the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people.

 

The trail of extermination, and dispute about exactly what happened, stretches back more than 90 years to the opening months of the First World War, when some of the Armenian minority in the east of the beleaguered Ottoman Empire enraged the ruling Young Turks coalition by siding with Russia.

 

On 24 April 1915, Turkish troops rounded up and killed hundreds of Armenian intellectuals. Weeks later, three million Armenians were marched from their homes – the majority towards Syria and modern-day Iraq – via an estimated 25 concentration camps.

 

In 1915, The New York Times reported that "the roads and the Euphrates are strewn with corpses of exiles... It is a plan to exterminate the whole Armenian people." Winston Churchill would later call the forced exodus an "administrative holocaust".

 

Yet Turkey, while acknowledging that many Armenians died, disputes the 1.5 million toll and insists that the acts of 1915-17 did not constitute what is now termed genocide – defined by the UN as a state-sponsored attempt to "destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial or religious group". Instead, Ankara claims the deaths were part of the wider war, and that massacres were committed by both sides.

 

Several countries have formally recognised genocide against the Armenians (and, in the case of France, outlawed its denial), but it remains illegal in Turkey to call for recognition. As recently as last year, the Turkish foreign ministry dismissed genocide allegations as "unfounded".

 

One authority on extermination who did recognise the Armenian genocide was Adolf Hitler. In a 1939 speech, in which he ordered the killing, "mercilessly and without compassion", of Polish men, women and children, he concluded: "Who, after all, speaks today of the annihilation of the Armenians?"

[hyethga]

Yet when I arrive at the massive genocide memorial next to the museum, I find the graves of five "heroes" of the Karabakh war. Here lies, for instance, Musher "Vosht" Mikhoyan, who was killed in 1991, and the remains of Samuel "Samo" Kevorkian, who died in action in 1992. However upright these warriors may have been, should those involved in the ghastly war in Kharabakh be associated with the integrity and truth of 1915? Do they not demean the history of Armenia's greatest suffering? Or were they – as I suspect – intended to suggest that the Karabakh war, which Armenia won, was revenge for the 1915 genocide? It's as if the Israelis placed the graves of the 1948 Irgun fighters – responsible for the massacres of Palestinians at Deir Yassin and other Arab villages – outside the Jewish Holocaust memorial at Yad Vashem near Jerusalem.

 

Officials later explain to me that these Kharabakh grave-sites were established at a moment of great emotion after the war and that today – while they might be inappropriate – it is difficult to ask the families of "Vosht" and "Samo" and the others to remove them to a more suitable location. Once buried, it is difficult to dig up the dead. Similarly, among the memorials left in a small park by visiting statesmen and politicians, there is a distinct difference in tone. Arab leaders have placed plaques in memory of the "genocide". Less courageous American congressman – who do not want to offend their Turkish allies – have placed plaques stating merely that they "planted this tree". The pro-American Lebanese Prime Minister Rafiq Hariri left his own memorial less than a year before he was assassinated in 2005. "Tree of Peace," it says. Which rather misses the point.

 

That's the only passage I disagree with Fisk here, hell, this is perhaps the first and only time I have ever disagreed with him on the topics he writes about.

 

The Karabakh war was all about acting like a race that didn't have an overwhelming weight of guilt and self-pity wrung around its neck.

[abass80]

hyetgha i'm a fun of Fisk and his reporting and i have to say that when Fisk reports something it means that he has checked and double checked his sources!

coming to the Karabakh war i have to say that Fisk is not biased like us! in some cases we committed atrocities against azeri villagers during the war (and i don't think that we waited for Fisk to tell us something that we already know)! i'm not saying that what we did can be compared to what the azeris did to us, but i firmly believe that by knowing what mistakes we committed in the past (and avoiding to repeat them) makes us better as a nation in the future!

we r a nation that has suffered a lot during our 3 and more thousand year old history! we must show understanding and compassion when it comes to civilians no matter who their leaders r! if we do not do that then we will be no different than the israelis, who have also suffered a lot in their long history, but if u look at the conditions that they have imposed to the palestinains in the west bank and in gaza u will realize that those conditions r no different than the ones that the nazis imposed to the jews in their ghettos during the second wold war!

i'm not comparing the israeli-palestinin issue to the karabakh war, i just trying to say that harming civilians is something that is unacceptable in every conflict!

 

[Hellektor]

Yet when I arrive at the massive genocide memorial next to the museum, I find the graves of five "heroes" of the Karabakh war. Here lies, for instance, Musher "Vosht" Mikhoyan, who was killed in 1991, and the remains of Samuel "Samo" Kevorkian, who died in action in 1992. However upright these warriors may have been, should those involved in the ghastly war in Kharabakh be associated with the integrity and truth of 1915? Do they not demean the history of Armenia's greatest suffering? Or were they – as I suspect – intended to suggest that the Karabakh war, which Armenia won, was revenge for the 1915 genocide? It's as if the Israelis placed the graves of the 1948 Irgun fighters – responsible for the massacres of Palestinians at Deir Yassin and other Arab villages – outside the Jewish Holocaust memorial at Yad Vashem near Jerusalem.

 

That's the only passage I disagree with Fisk here, hell, this is perhaps the first and only time I have ever disagreed with him on the topics he writes about.

 

The Karabakh war was all about acting like a race that didn't have an overwhelming weight of guilt and self-pity wrung around its neck.

I have just seen your comment and I haven't read the Fisk article yet. I find this paragraph repulsive. Or has Fisk been duped into believing the piece of shit scambug Thomas Goltz's fabricated insignificant Khojali incident scam bullshit?

 

When will this comparing of the suffering of the Armenians to J*wish hoaxes end? Why does he have to compare the most brilliant sons of the Armenian nation who gave their lives to free their homeland where they lived for thousands of years from the yoke of the bloodthirsty Turkish occupier, with some bloodthirsty Jewish occupiers who reveled in shedding the blood of the people whose home they just had succeeded to occupy? Sickening!

 

Doesn't Fisk know that the Artsakh war was the continuation of the Armenian Genocide, imposed on the Armenians by the artificially fabricated counterfeit "Azerbaijan" after genocidal acts in Sumgait, Baku, Gandzat, Shamkhor, Shushi, Maragha, Shahoomian, Getashen, etc. in the period of 1988-1991 that forced about half a million Armenians out of their homeland, before the "Azeri" filth perpetrated the war?

 

What? Just because the Armenians won the war for a change, they are not entitled to respect their war heroes?

 

[Hellektor]

Anatomy of a massacre: How the genocide unfolded

 

By Simon Usborne

 

The trail of extermination, and dispute about exactly what happened, stretches back more than 90 years to the opening months of the First World War, when some of theArmenian minority in the east of the beleaguered Ottoman Empire enraged the ruling Young Turks coalition by siding with Russia.

Another sickening cliché to allow for an "other side" to the Armenian Genocide:

 

What about the Hamidian genocide of 1894 to 1897?

What about the genocide in Adana in 1909?

Who did the Armenians side with that enraged the genocidal Turk to quench its thirst for Armenian blood?

 

Can these J*ws just back the fuck off from what's none of their fucking business?

 

 

*****

 

 

According to the decision of the Bureau at the eighth General Assembly of Dashnaktsoutioun in 1914, the bodies were ordered not to rebel against the Ottoman "empire".

 

From Ruben's "Armenian-Turkish problem":

 

"...despite the slaughter of 25,000 Armenians in Cilicia, Dashnaktsoutioun decided to remain calm and tried to demand that the Constitution be put to practice... But the Turkish leaders were walking along a new path that was more delusional... In 1912 Turkey was embracing a new ideal... Pan-Turanism... to turkify Turkey was the main reason that the non-Muslim and non-Turkish elements were being deported, persecuted and massacred in the country, and Turks were being settled in their places...

 

When, after having received facts and data from Germany and Bulgaria, they came to the conclusion that regardless of the position the Armenians took, the extermination of the Armenians, the intellectuals first, had already been planned all the same...

 

Dashnaktsoutioun (8th General Assembly) ordered its bodies to collaborate with the Turkish government and be with them even in the event of war (emphasis is mine H.). As a mature political organization, sensing the dire situation of the state, helped it, issuing orders to the provinces inviting the people to be loyal to Turkey (emphasis is mine H.) and as a conscientious nation, perform their citizen's duty. Talat Pasha was using Dashnaktsoutioun's loyal stand through Vardges, constantly sending telegrams to Van, Moosh and elsewhere to advise everyone to prevent any misunderstanding and to have patience to bear any bitterness without complaint.

 

All the Armenians of Erzerum embraced the recruitment, they were paying all the extra military taxes, they were tolerating every form of deprivation and plunder, refraining from any, although justified, objection and resistance.

In Van, there has been no serious undertaking by Tahsin Bey, before and mainly during the war, without the active collaboration of Dashnaktsoutioun (emphasis is mine H.)...

 

The people of Moosh and Sassoon, like the Armenians of Turkish vilayets, have been utterly loyal in the early stages of the war and have been extremely helpful to the state and the army...

Being aware of Dashnaktsoutioun's role, Servet Bey, the Mutisarrif of the time has turned to Dashnaktsoutioun time and again for help and he has got it.

 

They had organized:

1. A recruitment body that would go to Armenian villages to convince and encourage the youth.

2. Koryun's commission was charged to arrest and hand over the deserters.

3. Haji of Koto's commission transported supplies as far as Leez, Kop and Ghzl-Kyatuk.

4. Gegham of Erzerum's commission (Red Crescent) had engaged all the women and men incapable of fighting in diverse tasks."

 

So much for the garbage, repeated ad nauseam, that the Armenians, led by the Dashnaks collaborated with the Russians and stabbed "their" nation in the back.

[DominO123]

The Holocaust is not a hoax. I don't see how undermining others tragedy makes the cases any stronger? You're actually doing what biggoted hypocritical organizations like the ADL and lobbying groups are doing.

 

1948 Irgun fighters comparaison was rather stupid, Artsakh defended honorably, hojali was an exception to the rule which by the coarse of events could not have been prevented unless the attack was given in the morning which would have meant a better resistance from the OMON. The population should have listened to the ultimatum istead of believing the savage OMONs.

[gamavor]

The article by Fisk showcases few things that are rather ridiculous than educational or moralization preach. First, it comes to show the many uses of the Armenian genocide. In a country like Britain, where the official position of the government denies the fact of Genocide, speaking of it makes you automatically dissident. Britain is not Stalinist Russia, so there is no much heroism required to state the obvious. Secondly ...common isn't it too little too late, after 90 something years the truth seeking west is discovering his own sh*t? Give me a break! I hope Fisk will research the involvement of the Brits and their share of dirty deeds towards Armenians...maybe who knows?

 

As to his criticism about Armenian troops and Karabagh war. Nahichevan is next, then Kars, Ardahan, etc... Get your pen and pencil ready!

 

[Hellektor]

The Holocaust is not a hoax

What's the panic? Where in my post did I exactly say a certain event that happened in WWII was a hoax?

 

You're actually doing what biggoted hypocritical organizations like the ADL and lobbying groups are doing.

What you are doing is immediately sticking a yellow post-it badge saying "Hitler-Nazi-anti-'Semite'" on the chest of anyone who expresses their opinion on certain matters.

 

I don't see how undermining others tragedy makes the cases any stronger?

Just see how they are f***** with our tragedy on a daily basis and then think twice.

There's a beautiful Persian proverb that goes:

 

دیگی که واسه من نمی جوشه سگ برینه توش

 

Translated it means: the pan that is not boiling for me let the dog shit in it.

 

edit, Hellector please

Edited September 4, 2007 by Edward

[Johannes]

Thank you Hell lecturer.

I wish someone translate Rubens’ book ''Armenian turkish conflict'' into turkish and English and broadcast it in the net as well as the Armenian text.

Yes Gamavor, who cares?

[Z'areh]

Another sickening cliché to allow for an "other side" to the Armenian Genocide:

 

What about the Hamidian genocide of 1894 to 1897?

What about the genocide in Adana in 1909?

Who did the Armenians side with that enraged the genocidal Turk to quench its thirst for Armenian blood?

 

Can these J*ws just back the fuck off from what's none of their fucking business?

*****

According to the decision of the Bureau at the eighth General Assembly of Dashnaktsoutioun in 1914, the bodies were ordered not to rebel against the Ottoman "empire".

 

From Ruben's "Armenian-Turkish problem":

 

"...despite the slaughter of 25,000 Armenians in Cilicia, Dashnaktsoutioun decided to remain calm and tried to demand that the Constitution be put to practice... But the Turkish leaders were walking along a new path that was more delusional... In 1912 Turkey was embracing a new ideal... Pan-Turanism... to turkify Turkey was the main reason that the non-Muslim and non-Turkish elements were being deported, persecuted and massacred in the country, and Turks were being settled in their places...

 

When, after having received facts and data from Germany and Bulgaria, they came to the conclusion that regardless of the position the Armenians took, the extermination of the Armenians, the intellectuals first, had already been planned all the same...

 

Dashnaktsoutioun (8th General Assembly) ordered its bodies to collaborate with the Turkish government and be with them even in the event of war (emphasis is mine H.). As a mature political organization, sensing the dire situation of the state, helped it, issuing orders to the provinces inviting the people to be loyal to Turkey (emphasis is mine H.) and as a conscientious nation, perform their citizen's duty. Talat Pasha was using Dashnaktsoutioun's loyal stand through Vardges, constantly sending telegrams to Van, Moosh and elsewhere to advise everyone to prevent any misunderstanding and to have patience to bear any bitterness without complaint.

 

All the Armenians of Erzerum embraced the recruitment, they were paying all the extra military taxes, they were tolerating every form of deprivation and plunder, refraining from any, although justified, objection and resistance.

In Van, there has been no serious undertaking by Tahsin Bey, before and mainly during the war, without the active collaboration of Dashnaktsoutioun (emphasis is mine H.)...

 

The people of Moosh and Sassoon, like the Armenians of Turkish vilayets, have been utterly loyal in the early stages of the war and have been extremely helpful to the state and the army...

Being aware of Dashnaktsoutioun's role, Servet Bey, the Mutisarrif of the time has turned to Dashnaktsoutioun time and again for help and he has got it.

 

They had organized:

1. A recruitment body that would go to Armenian villages to convince and encourage the youth.

2. Koryun's commission was charged to arrest and hand over the deserters.

3. Haji of Koto's commission transported supplies as far as Leez, Kop and Ghzl-Kyatuk.

4. Gegham of Erzerum's commission (Red Crescent) had engaged all the women and men incapable of fighting in diverse tasks."

 

So much for the garbage, repeated ad nauseam, that the Armenians, led by the Dashnaks collaborated with the Russians and stabbed "their" nation in the back.

 

Hellektor, you are preaching to the converted, we all know that but obviously the Turkish propaganda has found followers. The groups who regard the Turkish version and agree about the "other side of the coin" fall into two catagories, the first I call the "more Cath. than the Pope" who would gladly use Turkish sources to defame Armenians, the second I call the "lost sheep", who really don't know where their asses end and their mouths begin, oblivious of world history they regard theTurksih version as being actually "a version" instead of the massive propaganda that it is. To these groups, th efirst we cannot do much, for the second, it'our responsibility to try harder and do more to educate.

 

 

As far as Khojali is concerned, I,m affraid the Azeris have effectively used it (use it) while we think that the world surely knows better. What about Mutalibiov's comments right after the massacres at Khojali? what about the Mujahideen fighters that were pissed off because they were not getting paid and started shooting at the Azeri fighters, especially those who were retreating? more important who's responsibility is to inform the world about these issues? certainly not he Azeris.

 

For heaven's sake, what are we doing to force the world opinion against the Azeris about the destruction of our heritage at Jugha's cemetary? we mistakenly think that if we put the film showing what the Azeris are doing on line at some Armenian websites is enough for people to log on and be informed, get shocked and react. What a lazy attitude.

 

We should have brought the heavens down and crush them on the Azeris heads. But we have not have we ?

Edited September 10, 2007 by Z'areh

[Hellektor]

Hellektor, you are preaching to the converted, we all know that but obviously the Turkish propaganda has found followers.

While I do not pretend to be omniscient, I know that not all of us know everything. In the post you quoted, I have translated some passages from Ruben's "Armenian-Turkish problem" which may not be known to most of us, especially those who accuse the Dashnaks of perpetrating the AG. I believe in order for us to teach those who you refer to as the "lost sheep", who really don't know where their asses end and their mouths begin every one of us must share whatever they know in order for all of us to have the sufficient knowledge to teach those ass for muzzle lost sheep. A beautiful Persian proverb goes:

 

همه چیز را همگان دانند

 

For those who do not know Farsi, semi-literally it means something like "all things are known by all". Meaning all knowledge is spread among all people of the world.

 

The groups who regard the Turkish version and agree about the "other side of the coin" fall into two catagories, the first I call the "more Cath. than the Pope" who would gladly use Turkish sources to defame Armenians, the second I call the "lost sheep", who really don't know where their asses end and their mouths begin, oblivious of world history they regard theTurksih version as being actually "a version" instead of the massive propaganda that it is. To these groups, th efirst we cannot do much, for the second, it'our responsibility to try harder and do more to educate.

As far as Khojali is concerned, I,m affraid the Azeris have effectively used it (use it) while we think that the world surely knows better. What about Mutalibiov's comments right after the massacres at Khojali? what about the Mujahideen fighters that were pissed off because they were not getting paid and started shooting at the Azeri fighters, especially those who were retreating? more important who's responsibility is to inform the world about these issues? certainly not he Azeris.

 

For heaven's sake, what are we doing to force the world opinion against the Azeris about the destruction of our heritage at Jugha's cemetary? we mistakenly think that if we put the film showing what the Azeris are doing on line at some Armenian websites is enough for people to log on and be informed, get shocked and react. What a lazy attitude.

 

We should have brought the heavens down and crush them on the Azeris heads. But we have not have we ?

Dear Z'areh,

 

No one can expect others to read/have read their comments. If you check my posts, you'll see that you are actually taking the words right out of my mouth. I agree with you completely and 100%.

 

As far as the insignificant Khojaly/Khojalu (Khwaje Ali) incident scam, invented by that piece of shit scambug Thomas Goltz to appease his whore of a Turkish wife is concerned check this post.

 

I have said a million times I am sick and tired of seeing threads being created on Armenian forums for almost the last couple of decades about this insignificant wartime incident where some 100 worthless, useless, stinking, illiterate samples of the most worthless garbage ever to have leaked from the trashcan of the universe, the "Azeri" Turk, were put out of their misery by their own, preventing them to use up more of this planet's oxygen and breeding more of their species.

 

Except from incomplete info about Sumgait, I have to search hard many an Armenian forum to find a single post about Baku, Gandzat, Shamkhor, Shushi, Maragha, Shahoomian, the Ring Operation, Getashen, etc. genocidal acts that happened BEFORE the "Azeri" putrefaction perpetrated the war against who they hypocritically call "their" citizens, and look what we have for a resolution by those OSCE faggots... What would they "offer" us had the Armenians lost the war?

 

Regarding the Jugha cemetery I have started threads on different forums and I am utterly pissed by the indifference of the government of the RoA regarding this genocidal act. I am aware that they are under pressure from the West, nevertheless, I believe this horrible crime gives us the pretext to take Nakhijevan back as soon as Armenia has the military superiority to do it. In an earlier post I wrote:

 

The destruction of Jugha cemetery and all Armenian heritage in Nakhijevan is reason enough for Armenia to stop the talks and attack to liberate Nakhijevan.

 

Since all of 27000 Armenian monuments (cemeteries, khachkars, churches, monasteries, etc.) accounted for by Argam Ayvazian are feared totally destroyed, there will be no fear of unintentionally harming Armenian heritage. And since the indigenous Armenian population was ethnically cleansed in front of the eyes of the Soviet leaders and later in 1990s, there can be no fear of human casualties.

 

So why doesn't Armenia dispose of the parasitical infestation in Nakhijevan by carpet bombing the area and negotiates Armenian territory with the sore, genocidal losers?

 

[Hellektor]

Thank you Hell lecturer.

I wish someone translate Rubens’ book ''Armenian turkish conflict'' into turkish and English and broadcast it in the net as well as the Armenian text.

Don't mention it Dear Johannes.

 

Me too, I would really love to see Ruben's "Memoires of A Revolutioonary", Varandian's "History of Dashnaktsoutioun", Malkhas' Ապրումներ, Arshavir Shirakian's Կտակն էր Նահատակներու, etc., etc., etc. translated into English (in case some are not). I guess somebody should dedicate their life doing this job and it would be nice if an organization could raise a budget to support this person in order for them to be able to do the translation without worrying about the rent and food.

 

[Z'areh]

I have said a million times I am sick and tired of seeing threads being created on Armenian forums for almost the last couple of decades about this insignificant wartime incident where some 100 worthless, useless, stinking, illiterate samples of the most worthless garbage ever to have leaked from the trashcan of the universe, the "Azeri" Turk, were put out of their misery by their own, preventing them to use up more of this planet's oxygen and breeding more of their species.

 

Dear Hellektor,

 

I know the depth of anger and frustration about Karabakh, I also know that had our fighters not stood up against the Azeri tyranny as fiercely as they did Karabakh would have been lost.

But Helletor, I think we have to distinguish between the innocent and the evil. 100 or 600 innocent civilian being killed is never right. However an insignificant an episode this might have been nonetheless no child or innocent civilian should be subjected to that sort of cruelty, and calling them, as you have above, all the dehumanizing names doesn't make our case stronger. Sorry but our fight is not against innocent children. Let's remember that a child, a worthless garbage as you call them, can grow up and become an Elif Shafak, or Taner Akcam or many "savages" that are now contributing to our cause.

 

I am not here to preach or pretend to be take the moral high ground, not at all, I just believe that killing some innocent civilians, regardless if its committed by the Azeris or the Armenians, is a shameful waste and a crime, plus it does nothing to achieve any military objectives. The Israelis indiscriminately killed over a thousand civilians in Lebanon, what did they gain, nothing, in fact they lost the war, both militarily and morally.

 

There is another thing, if one ever wants to establish some sort of peace, they have to treat the other the way they want to be treated, maybe its still too early for that but eventually it will or must happen. This simple rule never changes.

Edited September 14, 2007 by Z'areh

[Hellektor]

Dear Hellektor,

 

I know the depth of anger and frustration about Karabakh, I also know that had our fighters not stood up against the Azeri tyranny as fiercely as they did Karabakh would have been lost.

But Helletor, I think we have to distinguish between the innocent and the evil. 100 or 600 innocent civilian being killed is never right. However an insignificant an episode this might have been nonetheless no child or innocent civilian should be subjected to that sort of cruelty, and calling them, as you have above, all the dehumanizing names doesn't make our case stronger. Sorry but our fight is not against innocent children. Let's remember that a child, a worthless garbage as you call them, can grow up and become an Elif Shafak, or Taner Akcam or many "savages" that are now contributing to our cause.

Dear Z'areh,

 

Your answer is typical and I've heard it before. I'm sorry you didn't get my point. I couldn’t kill a mouse let alone children.

 

My point is: what is it with us Armenians who constantly talk about the insignificant Khojaly incident scam and forget all the barbarities the "Azeri" filth committed against us all over fake "Azerbaijan" in the period of 1988-1991, BEFORE THEY PERPETRATED THE WAR, that forced between 400,000 and half a million Armenians out of their homeland for thousands of years? Why isn't there many a thread about Maragha genocidal act for instance?

 

Taking all the pain the Turkic vermin has caused us the last thousand years, I don't give a semi-flying, bird-flu infested duck about the Turkic excrement that was put out by samples of their own species. Sorry to disappoint you and I firmly believe it's the attitude you advocate that has caused us to lose 90% of our homeland.

 

Take the destruction of the khachkars and the indifference of the Armenians regarding this genocidal act. I posted the following on another forum:

 

P.S. The perpetrators of the destruction (including Aliev and co.) and the soldiers who did it should be forced to nail their females and whelps to the ground where the khachkars stood and sledgehammer the skulls of their leftovers into a million pieces and throw them into the Arax, just like they did it with the Armenian monuments. THAT will be a just punishment for what the "Azeri" excrement did to the memories of our ancestors.

 

We HAVE TO learn to be a bit more heartless if we are to see the liberation of our lost homeland.

 

 

As far as Elif Shafak and Taner Akçam (add Zarakoghlou, the real gutsy guy to the list), with all due respect I'd like to see whether anyone of them would be "kind" enough to advocate the return of Armenian territory, at least the Wilsonian Armenia which is legally OK, to its rightful owner, cause what I care is TERRITORY and not some crocodile tears in "recognition" of our sufferings.

 

Territory man, that's the reason they committed the Armenian Genocide, that's the reason the "Azeri" dross is whining like hyenas demanding land from the victors of their own perpetrated war and unfortunately they got the support of the Zionist/Freemason Christ-killer Western faggots who have managed to present the whole Artsakh affair upside-down.

[Johannes]

Այնչա՜ն հաճոյք կըզգամ Հելլեկտորի գրածը ընթերցելով: Չեմ տրտմիր անգլերէնով պերճախօս չլինելուս. անքան ժամանակ որ Հելլեկտորը կայ:

 

My point is: what is it with us Armenians who constantly talk about the insignificant Khojaly incident scam and forget all the barbarities the "Azeri" filth committed against us all over fake "Azerbaijan" in the period of 1988-1991, BEFORE THEY PERPETRATED THE WAR, that forced between 400,000 and half a million Armenians out of their homeland for thousands of years? Why isn't there many a thread about Maragha genocidal act for instance

 

Փորձեմ վերլուծել հարցդ: ազր կոչեցեալները ունեն-չունեն, մի խոջալու ունեն, որի մասին մուտալիբովը բաւականին բացայայտեց: Ինչեւէ, Բագաւանի քարիւղի եկամուտը կը ծախսուի յանուն խոջալուի դէպքի քարոզչութեան: վլադ իլյիչն էր թէ սխալ չեմ ասաց. «սուտը կասէք այնքան ժամանակ. մինչ հաւատան մարդիկ»: Այլ խօսքով՝ իրանց ուշքը կենտրոնացրել են այդ կէտի վրայ:

 

Հիմա հռետորական հարց տամ լսարանին: Մենք հայերս ո՞ր դէպքի մասին քարոզչութիւն կատարենք, ազրների նման, երբ ունենք հարիւրաւոր խոջալուներ, բոլորովին տարբեր արժէչափերով զոհեր, տասնեակ հազարաւոր խաչքարեր, որոնց մի մի բեկորը ինձ համար արժեն շատ աւելին, քանց մի քարի կտոր: Տակաւին չգրենք մեր՝ երկրի բնիկները լինելու իրողութեան մասին:

 

Մեր ուժը տարտղնուած է 70 ուղղութեամբ:

 

Ճիշտ էք, համաձայն եմ: Կոկորդիլոսի արցունքը միայն բարոյական գոհացում կուտայ, սակայն ներկայ Հայաստանի Հանրապետութեան զարգացումը չապահովեր:

 

Զօրաւոր լինենք. իրաւունքը մեր ճանկերով խլենք:

 

Այս ընթացքում գտնւում են մարդասէր հայեր, որոնք չեն վարանիլ մարդասիրական քաջագործութիւն ցուցադրելու սիրոյն՝ սեփական ազգի համբաւը բծաւորել:

 

Edited September 22, 2007 by Johannes

[Arpa]

Please allow me to move this debate here;

http://hyeforum.com/index.php?showtopic=15654

Or here;

http://hyeforum.com/index.php?showtopic=6747

And let us see who is learning to lie from whom. Could it be that Սուտ Գիրք aka Book of Lies.

 

 

[Hellektor]

Այնչա՜ն հաճոյք կըզգամ Հելլեկտորի գրածը ընթերցելով: Չեմ տրտմիր անգլերէնով պերճախօս չլինելուս. անքան ժամանակ որ Հելլեկտորը կայ:

Սիրելի Յովհաննէս ջան,

 

Շնորհակալ եմ: Շատ ես ամաչեցնում, երանի՜ թէ կարողանայի մի բան անել էս մեր դժբախտ ազգի համար: Երանի՜ գոնէ մենք բոլորս հասնէինք այն հասկացութեան որ թուրքին երբեք չհաւատայինք և ոչ մէկս իրեն իրաւունք չտար անգամ մտածել մի թիզ հող տալ գայլ թուրքին մի անպէտք թղթի ստորագրելու համար:

 

...տասնեակ հազարաւոր խաչքարեր, որոնց մի մի բեկորը ինձ համար արժեն շատ աւելին, քանց մի քարի կտոր:

Այդ խաչքարերի մի բեկորը ինձ համար արժէ շատ աւելին, քան ամբողջ թուրք կոչւած գազանների ցեղը:

 

[Z'areh]

Taking all the pain the Turkic vermin has caused us the last thousand years, I don't give a semi-flying, bird-flu infested duck about the Turkic excrement that was put out by samples of their own species. Sorry to disappoint you and I firmly believe it's the attitude you advocate that has caused us to lose 90% of our homeland.

 

Take the destruction of the khachkars and the indifference of the Armenians regarding this genocidal act. I posted the following on another forum:

 

I was laughing when I saw this comment. Especially in light of the fact that it was your kind of advocacy that cries "kill them all" that culminated into genocide, and guess who killed whom?

 

Without turning blue in the face about what I just said, consider the fact that there is ample proof which suggests the fedayi attacks on Turks were not backed by Armenian military ability to protect defenseless Armenian villages and towns from the wrath of Turkish savagery which was surely known and expected to happen.

 

I have all the respect and honour for all who fought and still are fighting to preserve national dignity and national lands. I just hope that today's Armenian can successfully back up the actions taken to liberate Artsakh, something that our heroic forefathers were unable to do, which as a consequence we lost "90%" of our lands. It was a military defeat however you look at it, but military defeat is almost always is the result of political incompetence which, in our case, lies on the shoulders of all those who were crying "kill them all", without actually being able to do so.

 

Now about women and children. However much you despise these "Turkic vermin" killing innocent villagers (not that I'm suggesting Khojali is such a case) will get you nothing except the label of a murderer, if you are unable to "kill" the policies taken by enemy governments and "kill" all those who need to be "killed" (armies, lobbies etc...) to win the war, then you will forever lament the fact that you won the war only...moraly... the so-called paroyagan haghtanag.

 

Today, so far, all indications are that Armenains can back up their actions militarily, let's hope this is true and will continue, the failure in doing so can have unthinkable repercussions. We all agree on that.

 

Finally, who's fault is it if the destruction of Jugha's cemetery is not being discussed internationally as forcefully as it should be, don't go blaming the bird-flu infested Azeris, Turkish vermin nor shit smelling Zionists. The blame lies squarely on us. Same goes to the incompetent official Armenian sleep walking attitude and the non-existent counter attacks against the successful Azeri propaganda about Khojali. No one but us are to blame for these fiascos.

 

International media still talks about 20% Azeri territories occupied by Armenians and a million Azeri refugees created. They talk about 35 000 killed in the Nagorno Karabakh war, all the articles I read give the impression that it was 35 000 Azeris that were killed.

 

Yes it is far too easy to blame international Zionist conspiracies and wealthy Turkish lobbies to hide or be in denial at our incompetence.

Edited September 24, 2007 by Z'areh

[Aratta-Kingdom]

Here we go again. Zareh playing with words the way a wh)#$ would play with d!#@$.

 

 

Zareh

 

"I was laughing when I saw this comment. Especially in light of the fact that it was your kind of advocacy that cries "kill them all" that culminated into genocide, and guess who killed whom?"

 

 

What is the poing you try to make here? Are you saying the armenians have started the killings?

 

 

 

 

 

Zareh

 

"Without turning blue in the face about what I just said, consider the fact that there is ample proof which suggests the fedayi attacks on Turks were not backed by Armenian military ability to protect defenseless Armenian villages and towns from the wrath of Turkish savagery which was surely known and expected to happen."

 

 

Fdayis took arms against the turks to defend the defenseless. Only the counted few could find guns to stand against an ordinary army in a time when thousands of others were massacred by butchers.

 

 

 

 

Zareh

 

"I have all the respect and honour for all who fought and still are fighting to preserve national dignity and national lands."

 

 

It's not about national dignity or national lands. It's about survival - you idiot!

 

 

 

 

Zareh

 

"I just hope"

 

 

No one gives a shit about what you hope for

 

 

 

Zareh

 

 

"that today's Armenian can successfully back up the actions taken to liberate Artsakh,"

 

 

Artsak is liberated and it's a fact you can't deny.

 

 

 

 

Zareh

 

 

"something that our heroic forefathers were unable to do, which as a consequence we lost "90%" of our lands."

 

 

What the f#@& are you talking about?

 

 

 

 

 

Zareh

 

 

"It was a military defeat however you look at it, but military defeat is almost always is the result of political incompetence which, in our case, lies on the shoulders of all those who were crying "kill them all", without actually being able to do so."

 

 

Military defeat? Millions of unarmed, defenseless people were massacred by an ordinary army and you call it a military defeat? The army has massacred the same people it was supposed to defend. The counted few who took arms to defend themselves were in fact successful in doing so...

 

 

 

 

 

Zareh

 

 

"Now about women and children."

 

 

What about them?

 

 

 

 

Zareh

 

"However much you despise these "Turkic vermin" killing innocent villagers (not that I'm suggesting Khojali is such a case)"

 

The victim has a right to hate the aggressor. The ex-president of Azerbaijan, Mutalibov, said the people of khojalu were killed by the azeri soldiers. The past and the present president of azerbaijan threaten to kill the armenians... and you blame the victim for his reaction? Go *** yourself!

 

 

 

 

Zareh

 

"will get you nothing except the label of a murderer, if you are unable to "kill" the policies taken by enemy governments and "kill" all those who need to be "killed" (armies, lobbies etc...) to win the war, then you will forever lament the fact that you won the war only...moraly... the so-called paroyagan haghtanag."

 

 

Only in your dream you will see the armenians defeated. When the azeris had the support of the red army, tukey, israel, the oil companies, the politicians, the terrorists from all over the world, they must have closen the case long time ago. Face the fact you (...) . You lost the war. With all the money and the politicians you got, you still can't fight the armenians.

 

 

 

Zareh

 

"Today, so far, all indications are that Armenains can back up their actions militarily, let's hope this is true and will continue, the failure in doing so can have unthinkable repercussions. We all agree on that."

 

 

Drop dead (...).

 

 

 

 

Zareh

 

"Finally, who's fault is it if the destruction of Jugha's cemetery is not being discussed internationally as forcefully as it should be, don't go blaming the bird-flu infested Azeris, Turkish vermin nor shit smelling Zionists. The blame lies squarely on us. Same goes to the incompetent official Armenian sleep walking attitude and the non-existent counter attacks against the successful Azeri propaganda about Khojali. No one but us are to blame for these fiascos."

 

What the hell is wrong with you boy? First you try to present the armenians as aggressors, then you call them sleep walkers? All your messages are full of contradictions.

 

 

 

 

Zareh

 

"International media still talks about 20% Azeri territories occupied by Armenians and a million Azeri refugees created. They talk about 35 000 killed in the Nagorno Karabakh war, all the articles I read give the impression that it was 35 000 Azeris that were killed."

 

International media? Are you talking about Associated Press and Benjamin Harvey?

 

 

 

Zareh

 

"Yes it is far too easy to blame international Zionist conspiracies and wealthy Turkish lobbies for to hide or be in denial for our incompetence."

 

 

Are you talking about the same "wealthy turkish lobby" that pays people like Abraham Foxman and his puppets to do their dirty job for them?

 

 

Edited September 24, 2007 by Aratta-Kingdom

[Hellektor]

I really do not know what your problem with me is. You may not like my style. You should read my posts in a kind of tongue-in-cheek manner. I don't cry "Kill 'em all". I don't hate the Turks on an individual basis. I dislike the Turk as a collective, an anti-culture, a demonic phenomenon, a destructive power, an abomination and a disaster that befell us.

 

I am not ashamed of my anger. I'll try once more to clarify my point for you. I'll do it in Indian (as in cowboys and Indians) and I'll try to avoid any literary devices, since you seem unreceptive of figurative language and its tools such as: imagery, metaphor, irony, simile, paradox, understatement, overstatement, etc., etc., etc.

 

Turk invade Armenia thousand years ago.

Turk kill, rape, enslave, use and abuse Armenian for thousand years.

Turk have Armenian build their fukking empire, fight their wars (janissary), feed their lazy, hairless Mongol ass, run their economy, provide genes so that they breed like rat where Armenian decrease to zero.

Turk exterminate Armenian for thank you.

Turk squat in Armenian land.

Turk destroy Armenian monuments, change Armenian place names, flora and fauna.

Turk brazen, Turk deny all the above and accuse Armenian of the same.

Turk counterfeit a fake "Azerbaijan" in 1918 on historic Armenian territory for pan-Turkist purposes call Turks of the region "Azeri", a "nation" never existed throughout human history.

Fake "Azerbaijan" even more brazen than their progenitors.

Fake "Azerbaijan", hardly 3 years old DEMAND more land from Armenian.

Fake "Azerbaijan" get Artsakh, Gandzak and Nakhijevan from internationally recognized Armenia after copulation between Jew-Tatar Lenin and Doenme Jew Kemal, none of which recognized in 1921.

Fake "Azerbaijan" persecute Armenian, empty Nakhijevan from Armenian and bully Artsakh Armenian.

Armenian had enough, rebel in 1988, shake the foundation of the Union of Soviet Sionist "Republics".

Fake "Azerbaijan" reply with genocide, then start war that they phukking lose.

Sore loser Fake "Azerbaijan" cry like hyena and accuse Armenian of genocide.

Jew scambug Thomas Goltz fabricate insignificant Khojaly incident scam, tenfold number of dead reported by "Azeri" to appease his Turkish whore.

Jew media blow the scam out of proportion.

Armenian instead of exposing "Azeri" atrocities against Armenian in 1988 - 1992, cannot stop talking about the Khojaly scam trying to clear themselves of "crimes" they never committed.

Armenian never talk about Sumgait, Baku, Gandzak, Shamkhor, Maragha, Getashen, Shahoomian, etc. genocidal acts.

No "Azeri" give damn about these atrocities.

No "Azeri" talk about these genocidal acts and they never feel shame.

"Azeri" hatred against Armenian immeasurable.

"Azeri" catapult monster Ramil Safarov to man of year.

"Azeri" destroy Armenian heritage.

Armenian instead of showing these atrocities to world, mourn dozen worthless "Azeri" put out in Khojaly.

The Khojaly scam is brought under spotlight for corpse porn otherwise many more "Azeri" fukkin died in the war.

Out of 47 Armenian hostages in Aghdam including women and children, only 13 came back.

Corpse porn performed by "Azeri" on Armenian hostages to avoid their being recognized this the real Khojaly tragedy.

Chingiz Mustafayev found out, shit hit the fan, "Azeri" killed Chingiz Mustafayev in Aghdam to silence him and use his photos to emotionally blackmail world, accusing Armenian of corpse porn.

Armenian have thousands of years of civilization and don't do corpse porn.

Aghdam was in "Azeri" occupation at the time and Armenian could not have gone there and commit corpse porn for the hell of it and come back.

Without corpe porn and Chingiz Mustafayev photos, Khojaly scam not exist.

All this make Turk repulsive.

Turk don't give damn about Armenian.

If I had Nukes I would only hesitate to drop it on occupied Angora and occupied Bagavan for the sake of cats and dogs and birds that would be killed as a result.

I like to see Turkish state reduced to rubble, the Turks repatriated to Turkestan, don't care what you think of this.

 

I just hope that today's Armenian can successfully back up the actions taken to liberate Artsakh, something that our heroic forefathers were unable to do, which as a consequence we lost "90%" of our lands. It was a military defeat however you look at it

Armenian lost homeland as a result of treacherous genocide. Able-bodied men recruited and executed, women, children and elderly driven to roast in the desert, shot dead, thrown in sea.

 

Finally, who's fault is it if the destruction of Jugha's cemetery is not being discussed internationally as forcefully as it should be, don't go blaming the bird-flu infested Azeris, Turkish vermin nor shit smelling Zionists. The blame lies squarely on us. Same goes to the incompetent official Armenian sleep walking attitude and the non-existent counter attacks against the successful Azeri propaganda about Khojali. No one but us are to blame for these fiascos.

That's more or less what I say all the time. I pissed, Armenian waste energy for insignificant Khojaly incident scam instead of bombarding world with proof of "Azeri" barbarities.

 

International media still talks about 20% Azeri territories occupied by Armenians and a million Azeri refugees created. They talk about 35 000 killed in the Nagorno Karabakh war, all the articles I read give the impression that it was 35 000 Azeris that were killed.

 

Yes it is far too easy to blame international Zionist conspiracies and wealthy Turkish lobbies to hide or be in denial at our incompetence.

"International" media owned by Jew.

"International" media sock Turkish cuck.

20% is lie, even Artsakh that never part of independent fake "Azerbaijan" counted, it less than 14%.

100% of fake "Azerbaijan" artificially counterfeited on 20% historic Armenian territory.

One million "Azeri" refugee lie. Even Council of Eurofags say 8606 refugee (search for 8,606 figure (with comma) on the page).

They could have desecrated more than 180,000 usurped Armenian houses disposing of all that garbage there, but prefer to snivel like jackals and parade their "refugees" to world. Instead they bullshit about one billion dollar military expense.

 

P.S. I know you know all this, but it must be repeated all the time. A step in the direction of letting the world know the truth. I don't own/have access to Jewish media.

 

[vava]

Ah, if only a 10th of the effort expended on bulletin boards was directed towards concrete actions in Armenia & Artsakh....

[ED]

Ah, if only a 10th of the effort expended on bulletin boards was directed towards concrete actions in Armenia & Artsakh....

 

 

 

aaaaaman!

 

people and especially young forget they are in a public forum, and most especially typing on a GEnocide section.

 

I'm just tired of keep repitting that

 

[vava]

Here we go again. Zareh playing with words the way a wh)#$ would play with d!#@$.

Zareh

 

.....

 

"Yes it is far too easy to blame international Zionist conspiracies and wealthy Turkish lobbies for to hide or be in denial for our incompetence."

Are you talking about the same "wealthy turkish lobby" that pays people like Abraham Foxman and his puppets to do their dirty job for them?

 

 

Armen, I believe that your tone in this message is unjustifiably aggressive. If you've actually read Zareh's posts, you'll realise that he has Armenian's interests at heart. He is not an apologist - and I object to the manner you take his words out of context in order to vilify him. Please refrain from personal attacks, you know that this is against the COC.

[vava]

I really do not know what your problem with me is.

....

 

P.S. I know you know all this, but it must be repeated all the time. A step in the direction of letting the world know the truth. I don't own/have access to Jewish media.

 

 

Hellecktor - while I appreciate your efforts and your conviction, I think it's unfortunate that your "work" is tainted by your anger. Your posts demonstrate a hatred that runs deep and colours your perspectives absolutely. It's a shame because it undermines your credibility and your voice becomes lost amongst the cacophony of rest of the "ethnic web-warriors". Sad, don't you think?

[Aratta-Kingdom]

Armen, I believe that your tone in this message is unjustifiably aggressive. If you've actually read Zareh's posts, you'll realise that he has Armenian's interests at heart. He is not an apologist - and I object to the manner you take his words out of context in order to vilify him. Please refrain from personal attacks, you know that this is against the COC.

 

Armen? My name is not Armen.

 

Why don't you ban me from the forum if you belive my tone in that message was unjustifiably aggressive -and what i do is against the COC? Zareh himself has an aggressive tone but you have chosen to target/silence the members who use the word 'jewish'.

 

 

 

 

Edited September 28, 2007 by Aratta-Kingdom