Cool Armenian Language Websites

[Arpa]

Sorry but that doesn't make any sense because "կաթ" is pronounced "Gaht" (IPA: /gɑtʰ/) in Western Armenian, the same way it's pronounced in Eastern Armenian.

Sorry, wrong again, in eastern կաթ is pronounced as kat, not gat.

[Shahan Araradian]

Sorry, wrong again, in eastern կաթ is pronounced as kat, not gat.

Right. Missed the կ. My point is that it's not pronounced "god" or "kod" with a "d" in EITHER dialect.

Edited July 16, 2007 by Shahan Araradian

[Sip]

Sorry, wrong again, in eastern կաթ is pronounced as kat, not gat.

 

"Kat" with the 'a' as in dart. The K is more of a cross between "K" and "G" and comes from deeper down inside the throat from the back of the tongue and the sound is much more muffled. The english "K" originates higher up in the mouth with more "air".

Edited July 16, 2007 by Sip

[Arpa]

There is NO such word as "տաշնագ" in Armenian!! (as there is no such word as "կադ" in Armenian)

Then why are you transliterating it as if it is written as տաշնագ in Armenian?

Shahan, you should know by now that you're on your own in tis battle because you are wrong. I have said this before that I was brought up in what you western Armenian but I also know that Բ=B Գ=C/G and Դ=D Տ=T and so on.

Edited July 16, 2007 by Arpa

[nairi]

All Armenian vocabulary is the same between Eastern and Western Armenian. Usage is another issue, and that's not dealt by a dictionary.

 

Then you are not familiar with decent dictionaries. The point of looking up a word is not merely to get its definition. It's also to learn how to use it or to understand how it is used in different contexts.

 

In the Republic of Armenia, some Russian words are being used as Armenian like "կորուփցիա" etc, when there are pure Armenian words for them. These type of words don't qualify to being in an Armenian dictionary...

 

This is a ridiculous claim, which I won't go into, except by saying that if we were to judge Armenian like that, then we would be left with nothing more than a small handful of so-called "pure" Armenian words. Not much use for a dictionary then.

 

As I've indicated before, there would be two DIFFERENT plug-ins for Firefox or OpenOffice: one for Traditional Armenian Orthography, and one for Reformed Armenian Orthography (the latter would be used by Armenians from Armenia, and everywhere else including Eastern Armenians in Iran would use TAO).

 

Why not simply have them on the same site?

 

Example: I look up միություն. What I would like to see for that entry is something along the lines of this:

 

միություն (mod. spelling). Also միութիւն (trad. spelling).

 

Pronunciation in East Armenian. Pronunciation in West Armenian.

 

Grammatical info: noun, verb, adjective, etc. Exceptional characteristics should also be mentioned, such as plurals, declensions, conjugations, etc. Also such things as formal, colloquial, slang, etc.

 

Definition:

 

1. general definition

2. more specific definition

3. dialectal differences in any

 

Sample sentences from real life (either written texts or spoken recordings).

 

Optional: synonyms and antonyms.

 

You may add more to the list.

[Shahan Araradian]

Then you are not familiar with decent dictionaries. The point of looking up a word is not merely to get its definition. It's also to learn how to use it or to understand how it is used in different contexts.

By "usage" I meant the preference of one synonym over another in Eastern Armenian vs. Western Armenian, not by usage as in an example sentence.

 

This is a ridiculous claim, which I won't go into, except by saying that if we were to judge Armenian like that, then we would be left with nothing more than a small handful of so-called "pure" Armenian words. Not much use for a dictionary then.

Not really. There are Armenian words for nearly every "Armenianized" word that is borrowed from Russian in the media of the Republic of Armenia.

 

Journalists in ROA are simply IGNORANT of them.

Edited July 16, 2007 by Shahan Araradian

[Arpa]

There is NO such word as "տաշնագ" in Armenian!! (as there is no such word as "կադ" in Armenian)

 

From Nayiri:

 

դաշնակ գ. Երաժշտական գործիք * հայ կուսակցական:

դաշնակ ած. Ներդաշնակ, դաշնակից:

 

Piano in Armenian is spelled դաշնակ , as is a member of the ARF.

BTW. There is no such word as dashnak/դաշնակ to mean piano either, even if it is widely used as in dashnakahar etc.. The proper Armenian word is dashnamour/դաշնամուր, a lose translation from the Latin pianoforte.

I lied again. Yes there suc a word as դաշնակ it mean փոքր դաշոյն small dagger.

Edited July 16, 2007 by Arpa

[Shahan Araradian]

BTW. There is no such word as dashnak/դաշնակ to mean piano either, even if it is widely used as in dashnakahar etc.. The proper Armenian word is dashnamour/դաշնամուր, a lose translation from the Latin pianoforte.

LOL.

 

Nayiri distinguishes between dashnak (EA) / tashnag (WA) [դաշնակ] and dashnamour (EA) / tashnamour (WA) [դաշնամուր]:

 

դաշնամուր գ. Դաշնակի մեծ տեսակը:

դաշնակ գ. Երաժշտական գործիք * հայ կուսակցական:

 

Sorry but I prefer the definition in this dictionary over your "interpretation."

 

 

Edited July 16, 2007 by Shahan Araradian

[Shahan Araradian]

Then why are you transliterating it as if it is written as տաշնագ in Armenian?

Shahan, you should know by now that you're on your own in tis battle because you are wrong. I have said this before that I was brought up in what you western Armenian but I also know that Բ=B Գ=C/G and Դ=D Տ=T and so on.

I, too, know the distinctions between Classical Armenian phonology, Eastern Armenian phonology, and Western Armenian phonology.

 

Each is its own legitimate phonology in its OWN right!

 

1) I transliterate դաշնակ as "tashnag" in Western Armenian, because that is the way it is pronounced in Western Armenian phonology!

 

2) In Eastern Armenian phonology this is pronounced " dashnak' " (with an ejective K, represented by k' -- kʼ, a Velar ejective)

 

3) In Classical Armenian phonology դաշնակ is pronounced " dashnak " (K as in a plain Voiceless velar plosive)

Edited July 16, 2007 by Shahan Araradian

[Arpa]

LOL.

 

Nayiri distinguishes between dashnak (EA) / tashnag (WA) [դաշնակ] and dashnamour (EA) / tashnamour (WA) [դաշնամուր]:

 

դաշնամուր գ. Դաշնակի մեծ տեսակը:

դաշնակ գ. Երաժշտական գործիք * հայ կուսակցական:

 

Sorry but I prefer the definition in this dictionary over your "interpretation."

Stop making things up, like small piano and large piano. You know that you are sinking deeper and deeper in your own quicksand.

What are going to tell us next, that joutak/ջութակ is a small violin and the regular size is called jout/ջութ?

[Shahan Araradian]

Stop making things up, like small piano and large piano. You know that you are sinking deeper and deeper in your own quicksand.

What are going to tell us next, that joutak/ջութակ is a small violin and the regular size is called jout/ջութ?

I'm not the one making it up. It's from the dictionary, and I did not write it. I'm only a messenger.

 

You can corroborate my claim by consulting some Armenian dictionaries.

Edited July 16, 2007 by Shahan Araradian

[Arpa]

I'm not the one making it up. It's from the dictionary, and I did not write it. I'm only a messenger.

 

You can corroborate my claim by consulting some Armenian dictionaries.

I had just looked it up. That is where I saw "դաշնակ=small dagger". Ajarian does not even list it, and Soukiasian says դաշնակ , դաշնամուր, no distinction of size.What kind of dictionaries do you use? The one by Martiros Koushakjian? When did he learn Armenian? Not to mention English. You need better dictionaries.

I have at least 15 dictionaries of many languages.

[Shahan Araradian]

Why not simply have them on the same site?

 

Example: I look up միություն. What I would like to see for that entry is something along the lines of this:

 

միություն (mod. spelling). Also միութիւն (trad. spelling).

 

Pronunciation in East Armenian. Pronunciation in West Armenian.

 

Grammatical info: noun, verb, adjective, etc. Exceptional characteristics should also be mentioned, such as plurals, declensions, conjugations, etc. Also such things as formal, colloquial, slang, etc.

 

Definition:

 

1. general definition

2. more specific definition

3. dialectal differences in any

 

Sample sentences from real life (either written texts or spoken recordings).

 

Optional: synonyms and antonyms.

 

You may add more to the list.

That is a good suggestion for a dictionary. (Note that there would still be two different versions for a SPELL-CHECKER, just as there are 4 versions of a German spellchecker for Firefox, and the same for English. The reason being that a single person uses only ONE orthography, and not both.)

 

I wonder if a wiki-style setup would work so that the general public can contribute new words to the dictionary with the above information.

Edited July 16, 2007 by Shahan Araradian

[Shahan Araradian]

I had just looked it up. That is where I saw "դաշնակ=small dagger". Ajarian does not even list it, and Soukiasian says դաշնակ , դաշնամուր, no distinction of size.What kind of dictionaries do you use? The one by Martiros Koushakjian? When did he learn Armenian? Not to mention English. You need better dictionaries.

I have at least 15 dictionaries of many languages.

I just looked it up in "Գործնական Բառարան Հայերէն Լեզուի" by Անդրանիկ Վրդ. Կռանեան, 1983 p. 88 for դաշնակ and p. 89 for դաշնամուր.

Edited July 16, 2007 by Shahan Araradian

[Arpa]

I wonder if a wiki-style setup would work so that the general public can contribute new words to the dictionary with the above information.

Wiki-style? So everyone and their uncles, whether they know the language or not can contribute and pollute?

Look at some of the info in wiki and tell us which is correct that Armenians came from China or Sweden, or that we are descendants of Noah??

[nairi]

Wiki-style? So everyone and their uncles, whether they know the language or not can contribute and pollute?

 

Exactly. What we need is a professional university sponsored project. I don't mean to sound elitist, but this may well be the only way to be taken seriously.

[nairi]

By "usage" I meant the preference of one synonym over another in Eastern Armenian vs. Western Armenian, not by usage as in an example sentence.

 

That too should be specified in any decent dictionary. In the same way that "truck" should be specified as US and "lorry" as UK. And even more so if there is a (slight) difference or nuance in the definition depending on the dialect. Cross-reference could also be very useful, especially on the internet.

[Gor-Gor]

Then why are you transliterating it as if it is written as տաշնագ in Armenian?

Shahan, you should know by now that you're on your own in tis battle because you are wrong. I have said this before that I was brought up in what you western Armenian but I also know that Բ=B Գ=C/G and Դ=D Տ=T and so on.

 

Arpa, with all due respect, don't you get tired of making the same point to same people, every day?

 

I mean, at some point, don't you just come to the conclusion that Shahan and I are of one mind, you are of another, and we will never come to a compromise?

 

As much as I think you are dead wrong in your classification of Western Armenian phonology as incorrect or secondary, I have come to accept that that is your belief and that I cannot change it. Can this be a 2-way street already?

 

Edit: I wanted to get across the fact that you, Arpa, often bring up the WA phonology issue in almost every (probably every) thread in this Language subforum. Honestly, I think it takes away from the relevant thread (in this case, Jbeed and spell-check), especially when no one brought up the WA phonology issue and there was no hint at it, no reason to bring it up. We all know how you feel about it, so why do you keep bringing it up when it is irrelevant to thread? It is my hope you stop doing this! Not just for my own blood pressure and sanity, but for yours as well.

Edited July 16, 2007 by Gor-Gor

[Sip]

Much like there is "English" and "American English", there is also "Armenian" and "Western Armenian". Although the western dialect is legitimate with all it's new pronounciations and changing around of how the letters sound, we must acknowledge that it is just that ... a dialect derivative of "Armenian".

 

Edit: I am not a linguist and don't claim to be. Just my .02 (opinion).

Edited July 16, 2007 by Sip

[Shahan Araradian]

Much like there is "English" and "American English", there is also "Armenian" and "Western Armenian". Although the western dialect is legitimate with all it's new pronounciations and changing around of how the letters sound, we must acknowledge that it is just that ... a dialect derivative of "Armenian".

 

Edit: I am not a linguist and don't claim to be. Just my .02 (opinion).

And note, Sip, that neither Eastern Armenian phonology nor morphology is the same as Classical Armenian.

 

Indeed, both Western Armenian AND Classical Armenian have different phonology and morphology than Classical Armenian, and in the case of Eastern Armenian written in Armenia, even the ORTHOGRAPHY is different now!

 

To conclude and in a nutshell, there are three major types of Armenian:

1) Classical

2) Eastern:

+ Iranian variety

+ Armenia variety

3) Western

 

And there are 3 points of interest in linguistics:

1) Phonology

+ Classical

+ Eastern

+ Iranian-Armenian (particular difference is the way in which ռ and ր are pronounced differently than in ROA)

+ From ROA

+ Western

 

2) Morphology

+ Classical

+ Eastern

+ Western

 

3) Orthography

+ Traditional (Diaspora, including Iran)

+ Reformed (Soviet Armenia)

Edited July 16, 2007 by Shahan Araradian

[Shahan Araradian]

Wiki-style? So everyone and their uncles, whether they know the language or not can contribute and pollute?

Look at some of the info in wiki and tell us which is correct that Armenians came from China or Sweden, or that we are descendants of Noah??

I am an advocate of such open-source projects, and not only for software but for knowledge as well.

 

Have you read Eric Raymond's "The Cathedral and the Bazaar" essay?

 

This type of open-source model would work, I think, very effectively for a dictionary. The tremendous success of not only open-source software but also open-source content in the form of Wikipedia shows how powerful this model can be.

 

Various levels of access control can be put into place to ensure that the community's data is not corrupted by some yahoos. Those sorts of technical details can be sorted out as the project progresses.

 

I think that the open source model can be applied to an Armenian dictionary because the knowledge is out there among us: particularly those among us who are linguists as a hobby, and those among us who might be linguists as a profession. It is the former, I expect, who will contribute the most. Lastly, this isn't rocket science!! We're not really innovating here, except for the "knowledge development model": massively parallel and global network of linguist enthusiasts who are self-selected to participate in creating the grandest Armenian language dictionary yet.

 

Exactly. What we need is a professional university sponsored project. I don't mean to sound elitist, but this may well be the only way to be taken seriously.

Good luck in getting such a project started. While I do support such an endeavor, it requires some bucks and is also not as efficient as having half a dozen to dozens of enthusiasts contributing... (It's exactly like the Linux vs. Microsoft game. Microsoft no longer has a future in the operating systems business... THAT is the power of self-selected individuals collaborating globally using the Internet.)

 

Til then, we can whip up a 20,000 word dictionary within 6 months, all on the volunteer time of half a dozen Armenian language enthusiasts.

 

The spell-checking part would be done by a single software engineer. The content providers would focus solely on creating the content for the dictionary as laid out nicely by Nairi above. (The only thing I would add to her list is Classical Armenian phonology to the content, and Classical Armenian morphology to the spell-checking engine.)

Edited July 16, 2007 by Shahan Araradian

[Shahan Araradian]

"Kat" with the 'a' as in dart. The K is more of a cross between "K" and "G" and comes from deeper down inside the throat from the back of the tongue and the sound is much more muffled. The english "K" originates higher up in the mouth with more "air".

You are right. In Eastern Armenian phonology, <կ> stands for a Velar ejective or /kʼ/ in IPA.

 

Sound bite of what you are describing:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/comm...ive_plosive.ogg

 

(Eastern Armenian phonology has introduced ejective sounds into its version of Armenian phonology that did not exist in Classical Armenian phonology. There are no ejective sounds in Western Armenian.)

Edited July 16, 2007 by Shahan Araradian

[nairi]

Good luck in getting such a project started. While I do support such an endeavor, it requires some bucks and is also not as efficient as having half a dozen to dozens of enthusiasts contributing...

 

Then our language deserves to be doomed.

 

We had the Sovetakan Bararan back in the Soviet Union. All we need to do is digitalize it and add more info. But we absolutely need professional lexicographers working on this project, constantly innovating and adding new words and info. That's what any decent dictionary with names like "Oxford English Dictionary" are meant to do. We can have a couple of free dictionaries, wiki-style, but if we are to take ourselves seriously, we also need a professional academically sponsored dictionary.

[Shahan Araradian]

Then our language deserves to be doomed.

LOL. No, you're the one that's doomed because of your pessimism! The Armenian language will do fine with an open source model.

 

We had the Sovetakan Bararan back in the Soviet Union. All we need to do is digitalize it and add more info. But we absolutely need professional lexicographers working on this project, constantly innovating and adding new words and info. That's what any decent dictionary with names like "Oxford English Dictionary" are meant to do. We can have a couple of free dictionaries, wiki-style, but if we are to take ourselves seriously, we also need a professional academically sponsored dictionary.

Do you mean to say that people who contribute in the free software movement (e.g. the GNU Project, FSF), the open source software community (e.g. Apache, Linux), and the open source content community (e.g. Wikipedia) don't take themselves seriously?

 

Have you seen the quality of this body of free and open source work???

 

I personally am not in the business of fund-raising to hire some "professionals." If you want to go that route, more power to you.

 

This isn't computer science, nor theoretical physics, nor rocket science. It's inputting existing words into a system, and a large group of self-selected volunteers can handle that task quite well.

 

I'm of the school of thought that recognizes the inherent power of Internet-enabled citizen media, community participation, and open source... The Armenian language will do fine in this model...

 

Anyways, enough talk... Let's see which route will see the light of day first and bring about a higher quality dictionary; we've seen what happened to the Encyclopedia Britannica after the advent of Wikipedia, Microsoft after Linux, WWW servers after Apache, and if you still can't see the the power in the wiki/open source model...

 

P.S. The Wikimedia foundation has the Wiktionary project. The Armenian version is at http://hy.wiktionary.org/

 

An example word: Կարդալ

http://hy.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D5%AF%D5%A1...%A4%D5%A1%D5%AC

 

One can even add a sound bite to Wikitionary...

 

The only downside to Wiktionary that can be improved upon is that there's no way to add built-in intelligence to do things like spell-checking and word conjugation/declension. Another would be to provide data structures to make everything more searchable.

Edited July 16, 2007 by Shahan Araradian

[nairi]

I personally am not in the business of fund-raising to hire some "professionals."

 

This is precisely the problem in our community. We feel we need to raise funds for every little thing. Have we not heard of capitalism? When was the last time Oxford raised funds in order to keep up a professional dictionary managed by academically trained lexicographers? When was the last time Cambridge raised funds in order to publish English grammar books written by some of its best grammarians? And no, not "professionals," but professionals. Have a little respect!

 

You touched the core of our problem: we expect everything to be done freely and voluntarily. We say "shame on you" if anyone of us tries to sell something to a fellow Armenian. Perhaps it's high time we learned the ropes of capitalism. The first rule is: if there is no demand, then there will be no supply. From what I get from you, there is absolutely no demand for a professional dictionary. The result is that you shall get what you deserve, that is, no professional dictionary.

 

As for 20,000 words: that's a joke. That's not even a pocket dictionary. My Sovetakan Bararan has a minimum of 120,000 words, and even that is hardly enough for me. But then, I belong to the category of people who demand a professional dictionary. From what I am understanding, I am a very small minority. Hence, there shall be no supply. Therefore my conclusion that our language is doomed and deserves to be doomed.