Cool Armenian Language Websites

[Shahan Araradian]

Բայց եթէ դասական հայերէնը արեւելահայերէնին եւ արեւմտահայերէնին մէջտեղն է, ան «պարզ հայերէնը» չ'ըլլա՞ր:

Չ'ըլլար: Իւրաքանչիւրը տարբեր ձեւով կը հոլովեն ու խոնարհեն (morphology) եւ տարբեր են հնչիւնաբանութիւնները (phonology):

 

Եւ հարցում մը գլուխէս անցաւ՝ Գրաբարը եւ դասական հայերէնը նոյն բանը ե՞ն կամ չե՞ն:

Նոյնը: Կարծեմ թէ բայց «դասական» բառը կը գործածուի ուղղագրութեան տեսակը նշելու համար...

[Shahan Araradian]

I'm not sure whether you're kidding or not. Let me put it this way: anything that has to do with language is often the work of linguists. Next time you browse through a professional dictionary (even something like Bartleby), consider that there are linguists behind it. So yes, it is absolutely possible to get a paid job as a linguist (and I'm not even talking about a job in the academia).

I sincerely hope everyone who studies anything can get a decent-paying job to live in dignity... In the new era of intelligent automation, I also believe in population control. What do you guys think? (According to some estimates, there will be 10 people per square feet of planet in 774 years with current population growths! (Check out the world population explosion in this image. -- in 1960 there were less than HALF the people on Earth! Imagine that! And when Tigran the Great was around, there were only about 180 million people living on Earth!!)

 

Though in Shahan's world, linguistics is a doomed area of study with no job prospects whatsoever.

It's sad how it's sad for many in the world that the world is changing so rapidly... It all has to do with technology, and especially automation: not only physical automation as in the Industrial Revolution, but now in computational automation in the simmering Intelligence Revolution... Now is a good point in this thread for me to refer to The Singularity. I am an SL3 (Future Shock Level 3). What Shock Level are you?

 

Then again, I'm fairly sure that even Shahan has made use of the knowledge that linguists have shared through books.

As you use a shower without thinking about the ancient Romans who developed the plumbing and sewage systems...

 

He'll buy a book (or get it from a library) on Armenian linguistics,

How did you know I prefer checking out books from the library than to buying them?

 

but he refuses to see that that book was written by a professional linguist, and not some software engineer with too much free time on his hands.

That is true I cannot argue with you on that one...

 

But check it out nairi: don't underestimate the ability of a single individual. Specifically, don't pigeon-hole a person's ability to what their profession is.

 

People are multi-talented. And all fields are NOT as computationally complex! It's like the amount of computational complexity you need to run a simple calculator vs. the amount of computational complexity needed to run a 3D game. Some fields of study require less computational complexity than others... This is the asymmetry of the social world.

Edited July 21, 2007 by Shahan Araradian

[nairi]

As you use a shower without thinking about the ancient Romans who developed the plumbing and sewage systems...

 

I don't think about Romans, but I do think about the people who built it in this day and age.

 

But check it out nairi: don't underestimate the ability of a single individual.

 

I don't. But in the real world, as I said, credentials make all the difference. If you try to apply as a lexicographer for the OED with a software engineering degree, don't be surprised if they show you the door.

 

Now, I don't doubt that you've got the brains to get all the linguistics degrees necessary to get into an institution like the OED, but as long as you do not have those degrees, please stop considering yourself an expert and believing that you are capable of producing what they produce with the limited knowledge that you have gained from one or two Armenian language courses.

 

What does not surprise me once again, is that you write a five-page post replying to all the small details that I have written, but you still somehow manage to circumvent the core of my posts, that is, that a professional, academically sponsored dictionary (written by qualified linguists, lexicographers, etymologists, philologists, etc.) is a NECESSITY.

[Shahan Araradian]

What does not surprise me once again, is that you write a five-page post replying to all the small details that I have written, but you still somehow manage to circumvent the core of my posts, that is, that a professional, academically sponsored dictionary (written by qualified linguists, lexicographers, etymologists, philologists, etc.) is a NECESSITY.

Actually, I have given you answers to all the high-level questions out there. (Repeat them please if I haven't.)

 

The reality is that only a handful of humans in the world have studied all THREE Armenian phonologies in the level of detail that I have. Why? It's the law of numbers: only a very finite number of humans have been exposed to both Western and Eastern Armenian, and even yet smaller fraction of THOSE people have had the interest to dig deep into Classical Armenian phonology, Armenian history (specifically the history of Armenian literature), to learn the IPA, etc...

 

So it's a combination of (1) Luck and (2) Interest.

 

We are living in the age of Individual empowerment. Not in the age of Kings, not in the age of nation-states, not in the age of large bureaucratic corporations. Of INDIVIDUAL empowerment enabled by the free dissemination of information both by books and now the Internet and WWW.

 

Given that there are only a handful of such humans in the world, it's unlikely (but not impossible) that a traditional institution will lead the effort in building a large online (on the Internet) repository of high-quality Armenian words and spell-checker.

 

Being a socialist, I am a follower of community participation. I think that if there is sufficient interest in something in a community, then members (sometimes it only takes ONE) of the community build what is needed.

 

In this case, it is the SOFTWARE infrastructure necessary to get such a project going. In our case, it would only take one master programmer to build it all over a weekend or two. After that, people with spare time (and an interest) can start contributing.

 

There are plenty of professional Armenian dictionaries now in the public domain due to the downfall of the Soviet Union and due to the deaths of the authors of Western Armenian dictionaries (and perhaps the same for Eastern Armenian authors of dictionaries printed in Iran) that can be used to populate the online dictionary...

 

It wouldn't hurt to have a place like UCLA or Yerevan State University build such a repository on the Web. But that would require capital; I'm not yet in the financial position to contribute $100K to the project, but maybe in 7-8 years. Maybe Kirk or Gulbenkian can help here. Isn't Gulbenkian's endowment supposed to go 25% to Armenian culture? What better -- and cost-effective -- project than a professional academic dictionary with a copyleft (free) license?

 

If you want to go this route, then I think a non-profit needs to be created which would submit a proposal to the Gulbenkian fund. The non-profit would then oversee the implementation of the project, most likely hiring one software engineer and a number of linguists on a contract basis.

Edited July 21, 2007 by Shahan Araradian

[nairi]

The reality is that only a handful of humans in the world have studied all THREE Armenian phonologies in the level of detail that I have.

 

And what level would that be? Wiki level? Please keep your big mouth to yourself. Yes, the numbers are few, but you ain't one of them. No offense. Now try a little modesty.

 

There are plenty of professional Armenian dictionaries now in the public domain due to the downfall of the Soviet Union

 

None of them are academically sponsored. None of them are being updated. None of them are being improved. It is simply not enough to digitalize what we have on paper. We need to continue where we left off. That is not happening right now.

 

It wouldn't hurt to have a place like UCLA or Yerevan State University build such a repository on the Web. But that would require capital; I'm not yet in the financial position to contribute $100K to the project, but maybe in 7-8 years. Maybe Kirk or Gulbenkian can help here. Isn't Gulbenkian's endowment supposed to go 25% to Armenian culture? What better -- and cost-effective -- project than a professional academic dictionary with a copyleft (free) license?

 

The point is not whether we can afford it or whether you can be a benefactor. The question is whether such a dictionary is a necessity or not. It wouldn't hurt? Is that all you have to say? Which brings me back to my earlier comment that you neither know much about linguistics (despite your claims to the contrary), neither do you truly care about the survival of the Armenian language, nor do you have any regard for qualified linguists, nor can you ever build a reliable and stable dictionary on the net.

 

Or perhaps I should say: hey, good luck building it, but don't expect serious people to take it seriously.

[Shahan Araradian]

And what level would that be? Wiki level? Please keep your big mouth to yourself. Yes, the numbers are few, but you ain't one of them. No offense. Now try a little modesty.

If you have a case against any of the claims regarding Armenian phonology that I've made, then you should raise them with me, instead of claiming I'm not good enough.

 

That's what academicians do, instead of personally attacking as you have above.

 

I'm confident that I can hold my own with any linguist with a degree in Armenian linguistics. If one exists here, then he or she should be able to intelligently debate.

 

Which brings me back to my earlier comment that you neither know much about linguistics (despite your claims to the contrary)

Put your money where your mouth is and challenge one of my claims DIRECTLY here and right now.

 

Or perhaps I should say: hey, good luck building it, but don't expect serious people to take it seriously.

No worries I'm not worried about getting the 1% of world Armenians who already use large text Armenian dictionaries to use the open-source one online.

 

I'm interested in providing the basic 20,000 words used by 95% of the population -- particularly to the new generation.

Edited July 21, 2007 by Shahan Araradian

[Arpa]

Shahan, I think we have heard enough of your gobbledigook.

If you must talk about the Armenian language then please learn Armenian.

Why do you spell your surname as "araraDian"? How do you write Ararat in Armenian? ԱրարաԴ or ԱրարաՏ? Then why are you still writing AraraD. Is the entire world that writes AraraT wrong, and you are the only one that knows?

LEARN REAL ARMENIAN!!!

NOT THAT SO CALLED ARMENIAN YOU LEARNED FROM YOUR ISTANBUL/BEIRUT TRAINED SO CALLED TEACHERS.

Edited July 21, 2007 by Arpa

[nairi]

If you have a case against any of the claims regarding Armenian phonology that I've made, then you should raise them with me, instead of claiming I'm not good enough.

 

That's what academicians do, instead of personally attacking as you have above.

 

I'm confident that I can hold my own with any linguist with a degree in Armenian linguistics. If one exists here, then he or she should be able to intelligently debate.

Put your money where your mouth is and challenge one of my claims DIRECTLY here and right now.

 

Just because you know what a fricative and an ejective are does not make you a linguist. That's not even first-year university material. I have nothing to argue with you, since none of what you say is original.

 

No worries I'm not worried about getting the 1% of world Armenians who already use large text Armenian dictionaries to use the open-source one online.

 

I'm interested in providing the basic 20,000 words used by 95% of the population -- particularly to the new generation.

 

I don't care what YOU are interested in building. I care about what the Armenian language NEEDS.

[Shahan Araradian]

Shahan, I think we have heard enough of your gobbledigook.

If you must talk about the Armenian language then please learn Armenian.

Why do you spell your surname as "araraDian"? How do you write Ararat in Armenian? ԱրարաԴ or ԱրարաՏ? Then why are you still writing AraraD. Is the entire world that writes AraraT wrong, and you are the only one that knows?

LEARN REAL ARMENIAN!!!

No. I did not claim that all other Armenian phonologies (that is, Eastern and Classical) are incorrect. Since I am a native Western Armenian speaker, I am using Western Armenian phonology in my nickname, that's why I spell ԱրարաՏ as "Ararad."

 

Here are the three ways that the name ԱրարաՏ is pronounced in the three Armenian phonologies:

1) Classical Armenian phonology: /ɑɾɑɾɑt/ (Տ is a Voiceless alveolar plosive)

2) Eastern Armenian phonology: /ɑɾɑɾɑtʼ/ (Տ is a Alveolar ejective)

3) Western Armenian phonology: /ɑɾɑɾɑd/ (Տ is a Voiced alveolar plosive)

 

For further inquiries, consult the table here that compares consonants of the Armenian alphabet across all 3 Armenian phonologies.

[Shahan Araradian]

Just because you know what a fricative and an ejective are does not make you a linguist. That's not even first-year university material. I have nothing to argue with you, since none of what you say is original.

Cool. So you have no case against me.

Edited July 21, 2007 by Shahan Araradian

[Arpa]

No. I did not claim that all other Armenian phonologies (that is, Eastern and Classical) are incorrect. Since I am a native Western Armenian speaker, I am using Western Armenian phonology in my nickname, that's why I spell ԱրարաՏ as "Ararad."

 

Here are the three ways that the name ԱրարաՏ is pronounced in the three Armenian phonologies:

1) Classical Armenian phonology: /ɑɾɑɾɑt/ (Տ is a Voiceless alveolar plosive)

2) Eastern Armenian phonology: /ɑɾɑɾɑtʼ/ (Տ is a Alveolar ejective)

3) Western Armenian phonology: /ɑɾɑɾɑd/ (Տ is a Voiced alveolar plosive)

 

For further inquiries, consult the table here that compares consonants of the Armenian alphabet across all 3 Armenian phonologies.

Does that mean, since the Italians from Catanzaro pronounce their birhplace as Gadanzaro, and those from Napoli call themselves Nabolidan, and call their "compa"s, compatritots "goomba" spell it that way? Is that why the Arabs who call te president of Libya (Qadhafi)"ghazzafi" actually write "ghazzafi"?

Edited July 21, 2007 by Arpa

[Shahan Araradian]

Does that mean, since the Italians from Catanzaro pronounce their birhplace as Gadanzaro, and those from Napoli call themselves Nabolidan, and call their "compa"s, compatritots "goomba" spell it that way? Is that why the Arabs who call te president of Libya (Qadhafi)"ghazzafi" actually write "ghazzafi"?

I don't know. I only claim knowledge of all three Armenian phonologies.

[Shahan Araradian]

Why do you spell your surname as "araraDian"? How do you write Ararat in Armenian? ԱրարաԴ or ԱրարաՏ?

If you prefer Classical Armenian phonology, then why do you spell your name (Արփա) as "Arpa" when you should be spelling it "Arpha" (or "Arfa")? After all, in Classical Armenian, <փ> stands for the sound /f/.

Edited July 21, 2007 by Shahan Araradian

[Arpa]

You have no case against me.

Yes wedo!

Stop bastardizing, turkifying, istanbulizing our Mesropian language. I may have said this before. Mashtots was born and lived two thousand miles east of Istanbul, even if he may have traveled east, west, north and south in his research. How far have you traveled? Have you been to Yerevan, or woud you rather visit Adiyaman, Elazi (kharberd) as many diasporans do?.

Edited July 21, 2007 by Arpa

[Arpa]

If you prefer Classical Armenian phonology, then why do you spell your name (Արփա) as "Arpa" when you should be spelling it "Arpha" (or "Arfa")? After all, in Classical Armenian, <փ> stands for the sound /f/.

Yes, We will come to that. In the meantime, how do you spell arp/arpi/sun արփ արփի արփով. acongrstulstions! You may be one of the very few to realize Փ=PH=F. Then why do you deny tհat Բ=B and Դ=D and T=Տ?

Where do you see Արարատ spelled as Ararad/Արարադ? Even that "book of lies" spells it as AraraT.Do you also call our predecesoors ՈւրաԴու/UrarDu or ՈւրաՏուUrarTu?

Hss anyone said that you are full of tutu/տուտու դուդու/doodoo? Then let me be te first.

As Nairi, ever so politely if eloquently put it. Tha fact tat you know such ejaculatory words like ejective and friggen words like fricative does mak a linguist of you.

Edited July 21, 2007 by Arpa

[nairi]

Cool. So you have no case against me.

 

My case against you is the inevitably limited information one gets on open sources. Case in point: Wiki (you?) claims this about Eastern Armenian articles:

 

Articles

 

Like some other languages such as English, Armenian has definite and indefinite articles. The indefinite article in Eastern Armenian is /mi/, which precedes the noun:

 

mi giɹkʰ ('a book', Nom.sg), /mi gɹkʰi/ ('of a book', Gen.sg)

 

The definite article is a suffix attached to the noun, and is one of two forms, either /-ə/or /-n/, depending on whether the final sound is a vowel or a consonant, and whether a preceding word begins with a vowel or consonant:

 

/maɹdə/ ('the man', Nom.sg)

/gaɹin/ ('the barley' Nom.sg)

but:

/sa maɹdn e/ ('This is the man')

/sa gaɹin e/('This is the barley')

 

Nothing wrong with it per se, but very limited and even somewhat misleading. I compared this entry to one in an Armenian grammar book that I have, written by a professional grammarian. Although my book is limited too, the author spends a good nine pages on the topic of articles in Eastern Armenian. I will neither give you the name of my source, nor tell you what is missing in Wiki, so don't ask.

[Shahan Araradian]

Yes wedo!

Stop bastardizing, turkifying, istanbulizing our Mesropian language. I may have said this before. Mashtots was born and lived two thousand miles east of Istanbul, even if he may have traveled east, west, north and south in his research. How far have you traveled?

Mesrob developed the ALPHABET and NOT the language! During his time, there was only ONE phonology: Classical Armenian phonology.

 

Since then, what has survived is two more phonologies: Eastern and Western.

 

Have you been to Yerevan, or woud you rather visit Adiyaman, Elazi (kharberd) as many diasporans do?.

I haven't been to Western Armenia yet, except virtually using Google Earth. I've been to Yerevan. Why do you ask? Is it a shame to visit Urfa or Dikranagerd?

[nairi]

Yes, We will come to that. In the meantime, how do you spell arp/arpi/sun արփ արփի արփով. With all due repects, you may be one of the very few to realize Փ=PH=F.

 

Arpa, many linguists claim that any language that has a voiced consonant, automatically also has its voiceless counterpart. However, a language that has a voiceless consonant, does not necessarily have a voiced counterpart.

 

In other words, there are languages that have a /t/, but do not have a /d/, but all studied languages that have a /d/ also have a /t/.

 

According to this theory, since Armenian had a /v/ (a voiced consonant), it must also have had a /f/ (a voiceless consonant). The most obvious letter to fullfil that role was փ.

[Shahan Araradian]

Yes, We will come to that. In the meantime, how do you spell arp/arpi/sun արփ արփի արփով. acongrstulstions! You may be one of the very few to realize Փ=PH=F. Then why do you deny tհat Բ=B and Դ=D and T=Տ?

Where do you see Արարատ spelled as Ararad/Արարադ? Even that "book of lies" spells it as AraraT.Do you also call our predecesoors ՈւրաԴու/UrarDu or ՈւրաՏուUrarTu?

I don't deny that Բ=B and Դ=D and T=Տ in CLASSICAL Armenian.

 

In Eastern Armenian, "T" does NOT equal Տ!!! "T" equals Թ in Eastern Armenian, which does not correspond to Թ in Classical Armenian which is pronounced like the "th" in he English word "thin."

[Shahan Araradian]

My case against you is the inevitably limited information one gets on open sources.

You might be right, after all wiki's refer to work done by people with degrees in the field (but not necessarily professionals -- and by "professional" I mean someone who makes a living by being in the said field). However, in any field, you will find experts who don't necessarily have degrees but have been self-taught. And this is true across the board in all fields.

 

However, I claim that the body of knowledge in text that is now under the public domain is more than enough to create a professional, open source dictionary in the public domain.

[AK-47]

Have you been to Yerevan, or woud you rather visit Adiyaman, Elazi (kharberd) as many diasporans do?.

I don't know about this, many diasporans I know (majority Western Armenians) visit Yerevan and Artsakh and don't even mention or plan on going to our old cities. Some of them even say they wouldn't want to boost the Turkish tourism business Anyway there is no shame in visiting our old cities from where alot of our families were forced to leave. I think it would be a good spiritual trip.

[Shahan Araradian]

My case against you is the inevitably limited information one gets on open sources. Case in point: Wiki (you?) claims this about Eastern Armenian articles:

I did not write that article, but note that wikipedia's power comes from its volunteers.

 

People who sincerely want to see the Armenian language's usage flourish can provide their input into any of these articles.

[Arpa]

I don't deny that Բ=B and Դ=D and T=Տ in CLASSICAL Armenian.

 

In Eastern Armenian, "T" does NOT equal Տ!!! "T" equals Թ in Eastern Armenian, which does not correspond to Թ in Classical Armenian which is pronounced like the "th" in he English word "thin."

You are wrong again, our exalted poobah, to borrow a term from the operetta Mikado.

Թ does not equal T, it is the counterpart of TH/Theta as in Thomas/Թոմաս and Theodore/Թեոդորոս/ Mattheos/Մատթեոս.

Look at the Greek alphabet and tell us why Mashtots juxtaposed te Տ against the T/Tau and Թ against Theta/Th

Edited July 21, 2007 by Arpa

[Gor-Gor]

Does that mean, since the Italians from Catanzaro pronounce their birhplace as Gadanzaro, and those from Napoli call themselves Nabolidan, and call their "compa"s, compatritots "goomba" spell it that way? Is that why the Arabs who call te president of Libya (Qadhafi)"ghazzafi" actually write "ghazzafi"?

 

Oh look, another fallacy.

 

Western Armenians don't change the way they spell words based on the way they pronounce them. Western Armenians merely pronounce words differently than other Armenians.

 

Can you actually construct one sound, logical argument?

[nairi]

However, I claim that the body of knowledge in text that is now under the public domain is more than enough to create a professional, open source dictionary in the public domain.

 

How can it be professional if nobody gets paid?

 

Free dictionaries should also be available, preferably closed. But a professional, academically sponsored dictionary is an absolute necessity, from which free dictionaries can take (limited) advantage. Otherwise we are going to be stuck in time. What happens with new words? New expressions? New linguistic phenomena? Again, I ask you: what is the point of going to school and studying linguistics anymore? Are you expecting all linguists to be unemployed, while they voluntarily contribute to an open source dictionary? Indeed, what is the point of having an academically sponsored dictionary?