Cool Armenian Language Websites

[Arpa]

You still don't seem to realize the vital and crucial importance of having an academically sponsored dictionary. This is not something I can start up. This is something that should be started off (or continued) in a renowned linguistics department in Armenia. It's not about competition. It's about having a reliable source of information written by some of our greatest lexicographers, etymologists, and linguists. Please stop undermining the work that these people are capable of doing. They are more than mere armchair enthusiasts with too much free time on their hands and an internet connection. As a true enthusiast, as you claim yourself to be, you should jump at the first opportunity to offer your knowledge, rather than giving the impression that such an endeavor is a waste of time and money and completely unnecessary in this new age of open-sources. Besides, you would get paid for your enthusiasm, that is, if you first show that you have the qualities to work in such a team.

Of course!

Is that why we have no theoretical scientists, no professional linguists, no career writers (don't ask Ara B.), but we are willing to pay a nationful of Demirji-ians (ironmongers, turkish no less, or shoud I say Istabula-Arevmta-turka-hayeren,as if we did not have words like Darbin-ian to mean the same? If only we had enough nerve we woud have people named Bokhji-ian, i.e. sh*t in and sh*t out, as if we don't already have Bokhjali-ian?), Koshkar-ians(shoemakers), while we would rather have our Wordmonger-ians, linguists and lexicogrphers starve to death. Must I repeat- "You only get what tou pay for"?

Why is physical handiwork worth paying for but intellectual work must be given away free by starving practituoners? Must we be surprised that our youth don't choose pure science as a career? Por chi kshtatsner? Ajarian (turkophile) and company may defy and ridicule the system any way they ca, but do they realize where they would be without a state sponsored academy? Like if he were an armenological linguist in Istanbul?

Do you ever wonder why we have surnames like Kuyumj-ian (furkish goldsmith etc) but never Barshin-ian, Wordsworth/Wordmongeerr-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Wordsworth?

Have you, a good old fashioned bible toting Christian Armenian ever head of that biblical adage - "Physician heal thyself"?

And... if we still expect to get "something" for "nothing"? You guessed it... NOTHING!

Edited July 19, 2007 by Arpa

[nairi]

I understand that, but I just think that if you have strong feelings about this huge goal, you should start some kind of group of people, which would organize contacting Armenia, looking for the people who would make the dictionary, etc. But only if you want to, of course.

 

Stop shoving everything on me. This is something that we should all want. Clearly, since this project has not even been started, there is not enough interest or money. What makes you think that I have any authority or support to initiate a project like this?

 

As I said earlier: you shall get what you want. That also means that you shall not get what you don't want. Since Armenians apparently do not have an interest in having a dictionary like this, they will also not get one.

[Էլիա]

Stop shoving everything on me. This is something that we should all want. Clearly, since this project has not even been started, there is not enough interest or money. What makes you think that I have any authority or support to initiate a project like this?

 

As I said earlier: you shall get what you want. That also means that you shall not get what you don't want. Since Armenians apparently do not have an interest in having a dictionary like this, they will also not get one.

But I am interestd in having a dictionary like this!

[Էլիա]

Of course!

Is that why we have no theoretical scientists, no professional linguists, no career writers (don't ask Ara B.), but we are willing to pay a nationful of Demirji-ians (ironmongers, turkish no less, or shoud I say Istabula-Arevmta-turka-hayeren,as if we did not have words like Darbin-ian to mean the same? If only we had enough nerve we woud have people named Bokhji-ian, i.e. sh*t in and sh*t out, as if we don't already have Bokhjali-ian?), Koshkar-ians(shoemakers), while we would rather have our Wordmonger-ians, linguists and lexicogrphers starve to death. Must I repeat- "You only get what tou pay for"?

Why is physical handiwork worth paying for but intellectual work must be given away free by starving practituoners? Must we be surprised that our youth don't choose pure science as a career? Por chi kshtatsner? Ajarian (turkophile) and company may defy and ridicule the system any way they ca, but do they realize where they would be without a state sponsored academy? Like if he were an armenological linguist in Istanbul?

Do you ever wonder why we have surnames like Kuyumj-ian (furkish goldsmith etc) but never Barshin-ian, Wordsworth/Wordmongeerr-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Wordsworth?

Have you, a good old fashioned bible toting Christian Armenian ever head of that biblical adage - "Physician heal thyself"?

And... if we still expect to get "something" for "nothing"? You guessed it... NOTHING!

Will you please stop turning every single thread into an "anti-Western Armenian" rally! Sorry, but it's really annoying and impolite toward Western Armenians, like me!

[nairi]

Barshin-ian

 

So true, though.

 

Banasteghtsian..

[nairi]

But I am interestd in having a dictionary like this!

 

So am I.

[Էլիա]

So true, though.

 

Banasteghtsian..

Thanks for supporting me.

[Էլիա]

So am I.

Oh, well I thought you were implying that I wasn't interested. Sorry.

[vartahoor]

You and Nairi have some serious issues... and I'm not a psychological therapist to answer your posts. I think it's some sort of superiority/inferiority complex, and Arpha I'm surprised that you still bring up phonology issues... GROW UP MAN!!!

Shahan, this is my 3rd request, please tell me where did you get your Armeinian language expertise and for how many years

vartahoor

[Shahan Araradian]

Shahan, this is my 3rd request, please tell me where did you get your Armeinian language expertise and for how many years

vartahoor

1) WHERE I got my education doesn't matter: my mind matters and the books I've read do.

2) "For how many years" doesn't matter because it takes some people 1 month to learn what it takes others a lifetime to learn, to find patterns in...

 

But not to dodge the question:

 

I am a happy product of the Los Angeles & San Francisco Armenian communities. I have attended the following schools and institutions:

1) Sahag Mesrob Armenian school

2) Ferrahian Armenian school

3) ՀՅԴ Պատանեկան Միութիւն

4) University of California (Armenian history and language courses) -- and guess how you get Armenian language and history professors in renowned institutions, Nairi: by raising money!!!

 

I've only gone to Armenian school to 6th grade, so most of my Armenian language expertise is self-taught and it DOESN'T take a genius. It only takes an interest!

 

I'm a software engineer by profession, and an artificial intelligence scientist by night.

 

So the Armenian language and history are just hobbies for me... And I'm not bad at either, and I easily could have gotten third and fourth academic degrees in these fields; linguistics isn't computer (or rocket) science (not to berate the field).

[Դրօ]

There are no ejective sounds in Western Armenian.

There used to be. Only they were not տ, պ, կ, ճ, and ծ like in Eastern Armenian. In the original Western Armenian phonology, the ejective consonants were դ, բ, գ, ջ, and ձ.

 

Basically, the ejective consonants and the voiced consonants in the two dialects are switched. Unfortunately, however, Western Armenian lost those sounds while under Turkish rule. It was never supposed to have two letters making the same sound.

 

The aspirated voiceless consonants are the same in both dialects.

 

I was very much offended when Arpa compared our Western Armenian to Cockney English in another thread. Cockney English is slang English while Western Armenian is one of two standardized dialects of the language.

[Shahan Araradian]

There used to be. Only they were not տ, պ, կ, ճ, and ծ like in Eastern Armenian. In the original Western Armenian phonology, the ejective consonants were դ, բ, գ, ջ, and ձ.

Nope, nope. Ejective consonants NEVER existed in Classical Armenian. Eastern Armenian borrowed them from GEORGIAN/Transcaucasian languages.

 

Do you have any academic source backing your claim?

 

In classical Armenia:

1) դ is /d/ (Voiced alveolar plosive)

2) տ is /t/ (Voiceless alveolar plosive)

3) թ is /θ/ (Voiceless dental fricative) -- as in English "thin"

 

Basically, the ejective consonants and the voiced consonants in the two dialects are switched.

Not true. Western Armenian was never in contact with Georgian, so it did not have ejective consonants.

 

Unfortunately, however, Western Armenian lost those sounds while under Turkish rule. It was never supposed to have two letters making the same sound.

The sound shift from Classical Armenian to Western Armenian did NOT involve a losing of ejective sounds, as there were no ejective sounds in Classical Armenian.

 

What happened in the case of դ, տ, թ is:

1) դ shifted to /t/

2) տ shifted to /d/

3) թ shifted to /t/

 

(Resulting in դ and թ being pronounced identically... Hence the necessity of spell-checking software for Western Armenian speakers.)

Edited July 19, 2007 by Shahan Araradian

[nairi]

So the Armenian language and history are just hobbies for me... And I'm not bad at either, and I easily could have gotten third and fourth academic degrees in these fields; linguistics isn't computer (or rocket) science (not to berate the field).

 

If you had to choose, which would you choose? An open-heart surgery done by an experienced, renowned open-heart surgeon, or by a hobbyist who happens to have a read a couple of books and has declared themselves as an expert?

 

If you're so savvy in linguistics and you seem to enjoy it too, why did you become a software engineer? My advice to you is: stick to your computer and leave linguistics to those who actually have those third and fourth degrees, and more.

[Shahan Araradian]

If you had to choose, which would you choose? An open-heart surgery done by an experienced, renowned open-heart surgeon, or by a hobbyist who happens to have a read a couple of books and has declared themselves as an expert?

Typical response I was expecting [Totally predictable...]

 

That all depends on the computational capacity of a given mind, and the will and interest of that mind's possessor to learn.

 

I don't know who you hang out with, but I know people who have mastered 10 different specialized domains better than a "professional" specialist, or specialized idiot.

 

So your argument doesn't really fly!

 

People who have intellectual pursuits tend to study and have an interest in a variety of intellectual domains, not limited to their profession.

 

I don't know about you, but I'm not a specialized idiot, nor do I view other human beings as specialized idiots.

 

 

If you're so savvy in linguistics and you seem to enjoy it too, why did you become a software engineer?

It was more intellectually challenging for me, and I like to build things. And software is the most powerful building tool created in human history so far. You can't build much with phonemes.

 

My advice to you is: stick to your computer and leave linguistics to those who actually have those third and fourth degrees, and more.

One of my rules in life is that I don't take unsolicited advice.

 

Some humans, when they can't win an academic debate, tend to resort to personal attacks as you have done here, and as Vartahoor and Arpha have done previously... It only makes you three lose credibility...

 

I really don't care what anyone's profession is nor what you've studied, where you've studied, and for how long. That's completely irrelevant to me. What's relevant is your responses and writings for a particular topic. In your world, each person can only give an opinion or talk about the subject they have a degree in, and that only displays that you view the world as composed of specialized idiots. Sorry to put it this way but you think that since you can only master one field, then so is everyone else limited to one field...

 

And someone asking someone else to name their credentials shows that they don't care for science nor for facts, but want to be spoon-fed from a "trusted authority figure." I take the approach of verifying the facts for myself, doing my own research and investigation. But others don't have the time nor the will...

Edited July 19, 2007 by Shahan Araradian

[Sip]

In Shahan's defense, I agree that lack of "degrees" and "credentials" often doesn't say much about true abilities and knowledge. However, I still would prefer my heart surgeon (I'm sure I'll need one some day) be of a reputable school rather than a graduate of of those internet email diploma type places. In other words, I think presence of some reputable credentials is a good indication but their lack does not necessariliy mean "unqualified".

 

In the end, I think it is more useful to argue the merits and the contents of posts rather than each other's credentials and personal habits.

 

I actually think the discussion here is a worthwhile one and it is not only limited to dictionaries and linguistics ... basically the main question at hand is whether the "Open Source" model from the software world can in fact work in other knowledge domains. The thing with software has been that contributors of Open Source have implicitly had some basic level of expertise. However, in a "wiki" domain where anyone with a keyboard can contribute, I am not sure Open Source will always prevail.

Edited July 19, 2007 by Sip

[nairi]

I really don't care what anyone's profession is nor what you've studied, where you've studied, and for how long. That's completely irrelevant to me. What's relevant is your responses and writings for a particular topic. In your world, each person can only give an opinion or talk about the subject they have a degree in, and that only displays that you view the world as composed of specialized idiots.

 

I have never said this. Of course you are allowed to give your opinion. But I expect of a renowned dictionary and grammar book to be written by those who have studied the subject at renowned universities, and not by not a computer engineer. Your knowledge is useful to build a software that would support the dictionary, but I'm afraid the rest of your linguistics knowledge should stay precisely where it is: behind your computer on open-source sites, and not in a professional team.

 

As to your lack of respect for trained linguists: I'd have the same attitude if all I knew was what you knew. Now grow up and respect the intellectual work that these people are trained for, rather than constantly undermining their intelligence and knowledge. Once again, you fail to see the vital importance of having a reliable dictionary. And yes, I would like such a dictionary to be worked on by full-time professional linguists, and not computer scientists, heart-surgeons, bakers, and goldsmiths, who happen to be hobbyists in their free time. Ironically, you have not responded to my comparison between Wiki and OED. Is OED a little too intimidating for your highness?

[nairi]

In the end, I think it is more useful to argue the merits and the contents of posts rather than each other's credentials and personal habits.

 

In the real world, Sip, as you know, credentials do make a difference. I would hardly be surprised if I didn't get a job as a top mechanical engineer in a top engineering company if I don't even have a BSc from a second-rate university! It's hard enough getting a job there with a PhD from a top technical university. In the same way, I would expect the dictionary team in Armenia to consist of people with top degrees from top universities. Hey, if you really want to participate as a contributor, go to school a couple of years, get your degrees and apply. If you are capable of showing that you've got what it takes to work in a team like that, by all means, your knowledge will be greatly appreciated. If not, then stay away from it. This is a type of dictionary that should receive a reputable name for as long as the Armenian language exists.

 

As I said in my first post: I don't mean to sound elitist, but this may be the only way to create a reliable source of information that we all deserve (certainly those of us who are constantly working with language!).

[Shahan Araradian]

I have never said this. Of course you are allowed to give your opinion. But I expect of a renowned dictionary and grammar book to be written by those who have studied the subject at renowned universities, and not by not a computer engineer. Your knowledge is useful to build a software that would support the dictionary, but I'm afraid the rest of your linguistics knowledge should stay precisely where it is: behind your computer on open-source sites, and not in a professional team.

I will build the necessary computer infrastructure for a team of VOLUNTEERS to build the dictionary anyways (Build it and they will come). I didn't solicit your opinion on whether I should or not

 

Live and Let Live. Let people do what they want.

 

As to your lack of respect for trained linguists: I'd have the same attitude if all I knew was what you knew. Now grow up and respect the intellectual work that these people are trained for, rather than constantly undermining their intelligence and knowledge.

You are putting words into my mouth. Why?

 

Once again, you fail to see the vital importance of having a reliable dictionary.

You think that I want to create an unreliable dictionary?

 

And yes, I would like such a dictionary to be worked on by full-time professional linguists, and not computer scientists, heart-surgeons, bakers, and goldsmiths, who happen to be hobbyists in their free time.

Hey! Go for it! Like I've said in my previous posts, good luck with it and I sincerely hope such a project succeeds!

 

I'm a product of San Francisco/Internet/global counter-culture. I've taken the path of copyleft and free information. It is a social experiment. It's not meant to disrespect professional linguists but to EMPOWER the average Armenian with the basic information on his/her language that s/he needs access to in order to communicate in Armenian.

 

Ironically, you have not responded to my comparison between Wiki and OED. Is OED a little too intimidating for your highness?

His lowliness scum of the Earth socialist thinks that Wiki is good enough for him.

 

Like I've said before, ANY data source that is in the public domain -- and most professional Armenian dictionaries today ARE, like all the ones from USSR and the old ones from Lebanon, Syria, Europe -- is fair game to be added to the open source dictionary. Did I mention one of my other hobbies is intellectual property law?

Edited July 19, 2007 by Shahan Araradian

[nairi]

You think that I want to create an unreliable dictionary?

 

As long as you continue to bash professional linguists, whether implicitly or explictly, you cannot possibly create a reliable dictionary.

 

Hey! Go for it!

 

It is precisely this attitude of yours which makes it so obvious that you don't actually care about our language. You should say: "It is NECESSARY for us to have a professional, academically sponsored dictionary and I demand one." Not: "Hey, if it works, cool. If it doesn't, too bad. Who cares? We can build an amateur open-source dictionary, which is so much more useful than a professional dictionary of high standing quality, which our journalists, novelist, poets, and linguists, among many others, can use for reference. Anyway, good luck trying to start something like up. Whatever. Peace out."

 

I'm a product of San Francisco/Internet/global counter-culture. I've taken the path of copyleft and free information. It is a social experiment. It's not meant to disrespect professional linguists but to EMPOWER the average Armenian with the basic information on his/her language that s/he needs access to in order to communicate in Armenian.

 

You are disrespecting them by not even realizing what a NECESSITY it is to have a professional, academically sponsored dictionary. Open-source dictionaries are cool, nice, handy at times, but they are not NECESSARY. A professional dictionary is. That is the difference.

 

His lowliness scum of the Earth socialist thinks that Wiki is good enough for him.

 

And thus you shall get what you deserve, that is NOTHING, as Arpa eloquently put it.

[Arpa]

Will you please stop turning every single thread into an "anti-Western Armenian" rally! Sorry, but it's really annoying and impolite toward Western Armenians, like me!

Yes, it is annoying when these buffoons speak as if they know something, or worse yet, pretend to speak on my behalf as a so called western Armenian.

Dear Elia, tsav@d tanem, I feel your pain. Do you feel mine?

I have at many occasions indicated that I was born and raised in the so called western Armenian culture. It hurts me to see these self appointed “warriors “of the so called western Armenian shoot themselves in the foot, so to speak, make fools not only of themselves but also of me. You may have already noticed that very few of the practitioners of the so called eastern Armenian are taking part in this debate. You know that they are a majority on this forum. Why? Is it because they feel secure in their culture as opposed to the insecurity displayed by the above defenders of “turkahayeren”? They are an embarrassment. to me and my heritage.

It hurts me when I see these “self appointed warriors “ speak on behalf of me and lump me as one of them. It only shows how shallow is their knowledge of the Armenian language. I don’t know what their ancestry is, but if they only knew how their grand parents spoke. I know how my Marastsi grandparents spoke. They did not greet one another saying PAREV, they said BAREV/BAROV. They did not say PANALI they said BANALI and so on. Neither did the Sasuntsis, Vanetsis or Mshetsis say TAVIT, they said DAVID

I have said this a million times, please allow me to say it again.

The way diasporan Armenians speak has nothing to with western Armenian. It is TURKAHAYEREN, ARABAHAYEREN, FRANSAHAYEREN, AMERIKAHAYEREN …. You complete the list.

OK, OK Yeerevanites speak RUSSAHAYEREN when they write Grand instead of Hrand etc. (There is no H in Russian.)

What some of us are calling western Armenian is not “western Armenian” at all. It is Turkish blah blah…. Armenian. Our ancestors did not speak that way. We had to relearn our language again after the Big G, and guess who taught us our very own language. Not teachers from Sasun or Van but teachers from Istanbul. Not only that, the majority of those “teachers” were not even Armenian.

Do you know who Hubschmann, Meillet and Benvenista are? Where did they learn Armenian? Not Sasun Van or even Yerevan. Look them up and see.

Pick up an Armenian Protestant hymnbook and see who the most prominent, prolific translator is.

Do you know who Elias Riggs is? Do you know where he learned Armenian?

Look here and see what his primary foreign language is; Ironically, he shares your name Elia,Elias.

http://www.famousamericans.net/eliasriggs/

In conclusion. All I wish is that these semi-educated, non-linguists stop talking about Eastern and western dialects, stop dividing the nation by yet another line, stop telling us that Mashtots was an “idiot” who devised the AYP PEN QIM TA , and that he devised all those consonants to sound alike just to torture us, but most of all…

STOP TALKING ON MY BEHALF AS IF I, A WESTERN ARMENIAN SHOULD SHARE THEIR VIEWS. THEY CAN MAKE FOOLS OF THEMSELVES ALL THEY WANT, BUT PLEASE INCLUDE ME OUT!!! THEY CAN CALL THEMSELVES TURKAHAY OR WHATEVER ****HAY BUT STOP CALLING THEMSELVES AREVMTAHAY .

:angry: :

Edited July 19, 2007 by Arpa

[Arpa]

Something has bugged me for a long time.

Why do people assume that we need two separate keyboard layouts, i.e eastern and western. Do any of those use a different Ayb Ben Gim?

[Gor-Gor]

Yes, it is annoying when these buffoons speak as if they know something, or worse yet, pretend to speak on my behalf as a so called western Armenian.

Dear Elia, tsav@d tanem, I feel your pain. Do you feel mine?

I have at many occasions indicated that I was born and raised in the so called western Armenian culture. It hurts me to see these self appointed “warriors “of the so called western Armenian shoot themselves in the foot, so to speak, make fools not only of themselves but also of me. You may have already noticed that very few of the practitioners of the so called eastern Armenian are taking part in this debate. You know that they are a majority on this forum. Why? Is it because they feel secure in their culture as opposed to the insecurity displayed by the above defenders of “turkahayeren”? They are an embarrassment. to me and my heritage.

It hurts me when I see these “self appointed warriors “ speak on behalf of me and lump me as one of them. It only shows how shallow is their knowledge of the Armenian language. I don’t know what their ancestry is, but if they only knew how their grand parents spoke. I know how my Marastsi grandparents spoke. They did not greet one another saying PAREV, they said BAREV/BAROV. They did not say PANALI they said BANALI and so on. Neither did the Sasuntsis, Vanetsis or Mshetsis say TAVIT, they said DAVID

I have said this a million times, please allow me to say it again.

The way diasporan Armenians speak has nothing to with western Armenian. It is TURKAHAYEREN, ARABAHAYEREN, FRANSAHAYEREN, AMERIKAHAYEREN …. You complete the list.

OK, OK Yeerevanites speak RUSSAHAYEREN when they write Grand instead of Hrand etc. (There is no H in Russian.)

What some of us are calling western Armenian is not “western Armenian” at all. It is Turkish blah blah…. Armenian. Our ancestors did not speak that way. We had to relearn our language again after the Big G, and guess who taught us our very own language. Not teachers from Sasun or Van but teachers from Istanbul. Not only that, the majority of those “teachers” were not even Armenian.

Do you know who Hubschmann, Meillet and Benvenista are? Where did they learn Armenian? Not Sasun Van or even Yerevan. Look them up and see.

Pick up an Armenian Protestant hymnbook and see who the most prominent, prolific translator is.

Do you know who Elias Riggs is? Do you know where he learned Armenian?

Look here and see what his primary foreign language is; Ironically, he shares your name Elia,Elias.

http://www.famousamericans.net/eliasriggs/

In conclusion. All I wish is that these semi-educated, non-linguists stop talking about Eastern and western dialects, stop dividing the nation by yet another line, stop telling us that Mashtots was an “idiot” who devised the AYP PEN QIM TA , and that he devised all those consonants to sound alike just to torture us, but most of all…

STOP TALKING ON MY BEHALF AS IF I, A WESTERN ARMENIAN SHOULD SHARE THEIR VIEWS. THEY CAN MAKE FOOLS OF THEMSELVES ALL THEY WANT, BUT PLEASE INCLUDE ME OUT!!! THEY CAN CALL THEMSELVES TURKAHAY OR WHATEVER ****HAY BUT STOP CALLING THEMSELVES AREVMTAHAY .

:angry: :

 

1) Please respond to my post to you in this thread.

 

2) Now that you have gotten this all off your chest, can we agree that you won't bring it up in every subsquent post?

 

[Sip]

Arpa making fun of Western Armenians is like Chris Rock making fun of blacks ... he can do it because he is one

[Gor-Gor]

Arpa making fun of Western Armenians is like Chris Rock making fun of blacks ... he can do it because he is one

 

Except Chris Rock does so for humorous purposes. When Arpa so vehemently and passionately derides all things Western Armenian, there is a hint (or maybe more than a hint) of self-hate in his writings. That is what makes it all very disturbing.

 

This, in addition to the fact that he railroads perfectly fine threads by bringing up his ayp-pen-qim-ta crap, despite the fact that it is absolutely irrelevant (or maybe in spite of it as well).

Edited July 19, 2007 by Gor-Gor

[vartahoor]

Except Chris Rock does so for humorous purposes. When Arpa so vehemently and passionately derides all things Western Armenian, there is a hint (or maybe more than a hint) of self-hate in his writings. That is what makes it all very disturbing.

 

This, in addition to the fact that he railroads perfectly fine threads by bringing up his ayp-pen-qim-ta crap, despite the fact that it is absolutely irrelevant (or maybe in spite of it as well).

Why is the criticism so unpalatable?

Arpa, Johanness and others have pointed out to the incorrect phonoloy on numerous occasions and yet it deems it has fallen of deaf ears.

vartahoor

Edited July 19, 2007 by vartahoor