Sasun Posted June 27, 2007 Report Share Posted June 27, 2007 Typically, bad people such as criminals are suppressed, i.e. prisoned for correction, or in some cases killed. For the most part prison doesn't work as a way to correct, and killing doesn't work either. In other cases where evil but not necessarily criminal actions are involved, again suppression is the way chosen by us to deal. For example, take the case of a hopeless alcoholic. In this case it maybe the society kicking out the alcoholic from respectable standing, or the wife kicking out the alcoholic husband out of home, or the alcholic gets fired from work, or a different way of suppression is used. The examples are numerous. In every evil action it is easy to recognize deeply engraved habits or ways of thinking. Evil habits of dealing with people, evil habits of thinking, acting, etc. In all cases evil is dealt with suppression. The question is, is suppression the only way? This is a particularly relevant question considering the fact that generally speaking suppression doesn't work though for some reason people keep expecting that some day it may work. There is an alternative and a higher way: transmutation. What is transmutation? Simply speaking it is a creative way of converting the evil into good. It maybe an evil person or an evil habit. Let's keep it general and see what may fit into this paradigm. I will put some examples to make it clear and hopefully we can continue the list. The idea is that suppose there is some way to persuade or educate or even coerce the evil person or evil habit to be converted into something similar but harmless. For example, a serial killer seems to enjoy killing. It maybe that the deep psychological trouble behind his evilness is that he enjoys killing anything, not necessarily humans. Therefore, a suitable prescription for him and for the society would be to let him be a hunter. Keep in mind that evil does not necessarily mean a criminal or an entirely evil person. It can be a bad habit of ours also. Thus, the list goes. Serial killer - a professional hunter Sadist - dentist Sex abuser - a carefully selected creative work Pathological liar - a fairy tale writer Alcoholic - alcohol specialist Violent people - martial arts Let's try to add to the list or suggest other alternatives. P.S. Hello everyone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Takoush Posted June 27, 2007 Report Share Posted June 27, 2007 (edited) Sasun where have you been bud???? In NJ yet so far away. It's good to hear from you. I actually think your approach may work. Here's a few more: Robber of cars: Car salesman Thieves entering houses to steal furnitures: Realtors Jewel thieves: Jewelers Edited June 27, 2007 by Anahid Takouhi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zartonk Posted June 27, 2007 Report Share Posted June 27, 2007 (edited) Welcome back Sasun. First off, I have trouble with how you seem to view the problem. The ailments you mention are all too different and require distinct analysis and treatments beyond being collectively approached as acts of 'evil'. Although I am in agreement that suppression as solution does not necessarily work in all cases, I think part of the dilemma is weather we view immoral acts and the like at a distance. I believe there would be a better opportunity to look for correction if if the problems are recognized as an insuperable part of our very state of being rather then looked at as "their" and "them" (and I'm NOT necessarily suggesting that that IS your stance.) Edited June 27, 2007 by Zartonk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED Posted June 27, 2007 Report Share Posted June 27, 2007 vah Sasun jan ? bari ekar vaxemi barekam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MosJan Posted June 27, 2007 Report Share Posted June 27, 2007 Edward jan mi et aknotsner@ tur tesnem es ova yekel iy mard tserutyun el mi ban chi achqis inch ases yerveuma / hima el te es topic@ mer Sasuna bastel / voch te Sassun iyl SASUN@ havatum eq joghovur ?? iy mard el Jermuk chem xmelu achqis inhc ases yervuma Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yervant1 Posted June 27, 2007 Report Share Posted June 27, 2007 Hey Sasun Jan vonts es? Nice topic look what you did, you turned Mosjan from good to evil "iy mard el Jermuk chem xmelu" he wants the real thing. In general I too don't believe that carseration is the answer for all but sometimes it is the only way, take pedophiles for example so far there is no cure for it. Therefore it is better to err on the side of children. Sex abuser - a carefully selected creative work = Pimp Bank robber - Bank teller Tax evader - Taxman (IRS) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arpa Posted June 27, 2007 Report Share Posted June 27, 2007 (edited) Typically, bad people such as criminals are suppressed, i.e. prisoned for Let's try to add to the list or suggest other alternatives. ==== P.S. Hello everyone. Yeah. Hello to you too. WTH, I mean "Where in Heaven have you been"? Racist= Humanistic sociologist. Or. Is it sociopathic humanist? Remember when I mistook you (SaSun) to SaSSun? Edited June 27, 2007 by Arpa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anoushik Posted June 27, 2007 Report Share Posted June 27, 2007 Hiiiii Sasun!!! Welcome back!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anoushik Posted June 27, 2007 Report Share Posted June 27, 2007 Sadist - dentist Good one! There is an alternative and a higher way: transmutation. What is transmutation? Simply speaking it is a creative way of converting the evil into good. It maybe an evil person or an evil habit. Let's keep it general and see what may fit into this paradigm. I don't think we can ever convert evil into good. The serial killers, sadists, bank robbers, rapists, etc., they are all rebelling against society. They would never conform to society's goal for them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anonymouse Posted June 27, 2007 Report Share Posted June 27, 2007 Freud said that civilization is a work of men, because unlike women, men were capable of sublimation, channeling these instinctual desires, to creative cultural ends. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED Posted June 28, 2007 Report Share Posted June 28, 2007 (edited) this how we end up having a idiot as president sadist-vice president. prostitutes-congressmen. Hagarag-prist? sorry Sasun jan Edited June 28, 2007 by Edward Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Takoush Posted June 28, 2007 Report Share Posted June 28, 2007 (edited) Sasun jan; By you leaving this Forum, the Forum lost a great deal. A great intellectual, an individual with a good sense, sensibility, wisdom and a great friend to us all! You have been greatly missed!!!! Edited June 28, 2007 by Anahid Takouhi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED Posted June 28, 2007 Report Share Posted June 28, 2007 vuy aman that was wonderful Taqushig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Takoush Posted June 28, 2007 Report Share Posted June 28, 2007 vuy aman that was wonderful Taqushig Thanks Edo jan!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted July 3, 2007 Author Report Share Posted July 3, 2007 (edited) Hi guys, good to see you again. Thank you so much for the warm welcomes Sorry I don't have the time to reply more promptly. How have you been? Hope all is good. Now back to the topic... Edited July 3, 2007 by Sasun Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted July 3, 2007 Author Report Share Posted July 3, 2007 (edited) Welcome back Sasun. First off, I have trouble with how you seem to view the problem. The ailments you mention are all too different and require distinct analysis and treatments beyond being collectively approached as acts of 'evil'. Although I am in agreement that suppression as solution does not necessarily work in all cases, I think part of the dilemma is weather we view immoral acts and the like at a distance. I believe there would be a better opportunity to look for correction if if the problems are recognized as an insuperable part of our very state of being rather then looked at as "their" and "them" (and I'm NOT necessarily suggesting that that IS your stance.) Thanks for welcoming back. I am glad to be back. Sure, these are all different ailments. The purpose is to open the thinking. Of course, these are all serious ailments that require very careful examination and study before addressing them.I don't think here in the forum we can provide fundamental solutions. I call all ailments evil for simplicity. They apply to everyone, including us. We can be immoral too, and we probably are. It is not black and white but different shades of gray. Evil can be a small or big part of all human beings. But I do believe we can change our state of being, I think it would be realistic to think of a gradual change. Where there is a will to change there will be a way. For example, I had a small yet evil habit of drinking three coffees a day. Why evil? I hope everyone sees it the same way as I mean it - coffee is not satanic, simply it is bad for health, in other words evil. Anyway, the way transmutation worked for me is, I realized that I need to change, yet it would be hard to quit drinking coffee altogether, so I shifted to drinking decaf coffee. So now 1 or 2 of my three coffees are decaf. Definitely healthier than before. Hence a small aspect of my state of being changed from evil to good Edited July 3, 2007 by Sasun Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted July 3, 2007 Author Report Share Posted July 3, 2007 I don't think we can ever convert evil into good. The serial killers, sadists, bank robbers, rapists, etc., they are all rebelling against society. They would never conform to society's goal for them. I challenge that assertion Everything is possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted July 3, 2007 Author Report Share Posted July 3, 2007 Freud said that civilization is a work of men, because unlike women, men were capable of sublimation, channeling these instinctual desires, to creative cultural ends. I think women are capable of sublimation just like men. I wonder what made Freud to conclude otherwise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vava Posted July 3, 2007 Report Share Posted July 3, 2007 Sadist - dentist I know some who might take offense to this statement! Alcoholic - alcohol specialist This one too! So I think what we're challenging is the idea of criminal "rehabilitation" and the methods used to attain such an end. Though by your coffee example, this is not limited to crime per se, but general misdeeds. What we should also look at is not just the rehabilitation model (ie. transmutation vs. suppression) but the vehicle that is employed to bring about the change. The idea is that suppose there is some way to persuade or educate or even coerce the evil person or evil habit to be converted into something similar but harmless. From my perspective, (and using your terms) "suppression" of a particular ailment via coercion is perhaps not that much different than "transmutation" via coercion. The motivation of the individual to self rehabilitate is key. Rather than focus upon the corrective path, it may be more constructive to analyse the required environment that enables the offending individual to 1) recognize that their chosen behaviour is undesirable, 2) realise that there exists a corrective path, and 3) desire/pursue the "correct" outcome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vava Posted July 3, 2007 Report Share Posted July 3, 2007 And welcome back Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted July 3, 2007 Author Report Share Posted July 3, 2007 From my perspective, (and using your terms) "suppression" of a particular ailment via coercion is perhaps not that much different than "transmutation" via coercion. The motivation of the individual to self rehabilitate is key. Rather than focus upon the corrective path, it may be more constructive to analyse the required environment that enables the offending individual to 1) recognize that their chosen behaviour is undesirable, 2) realise that there exists a corrective path, and 3) desire/pursue the "correct" outcome. I think I should have been more clear... yes, definitely one should want to change first, then it will be a lot of work to actually change. Transmutation is largely a voluntary effort. But then there maybe a benefit to coerce in certain ways, so it is partly voluntary and partly coercive. For example, suppose there is a law for certain types of crimes - you go to jail or you take a trasmutation path. So, the rehabilitation is kind of coercive yet you have a choice of not taking it, but it is not such a good choice. Hence you are effectively forced into it. Another way to think is, suppose a sick child is taken to a doctor. The child does want to be cured, yet it refuses to take the bitter medicines. Then perhaps you coerce the kid somehow to take the medicines (for example, you take the pill or else no games). So, I believe certian types of coercion can be beneficial, but of course when we think of rehabilitation/transmutation, a wrong type of coersion easily can be counter productive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MosJan Posted July 3, 2007 Report Share Posted July 3, 2007 Hi guys, good to see you again. Thank you so much for the warm welcomes Sorry I don't have the time to reply more promptly. How have you been? Hope all is good. Now back to the topic... Lav Sasun jan Lav aper du lav lines - husov amen inch nromal e qez mot im lav barekam espes mek mek Tsik asa tnashen te che korel es chkas NIce to see you Bro jan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.