What Is Your Solution To The Karabakh Issue?

[transcender]

Dear Friends,

 

I've been doing a lot of reading, on the challenge of building a state in Karabakh.

 

The issue is touched in:

 

The Armenia-Azerbaijan conflict: causes and implications by Michael Croissant

Modern Armenia: Jirair Libaridian

The challenge of statehood : Armenian political thinking since independence - Libaridian, Gerard J.

The making of Nagorno-Karabagh : from secession to republic - Levon Chorbajian

 

I won't lie to you - i haven't covered to covered all of these books, except for Libaridian's. I will be reading Croissant's as well as Chorbjian's very soon.

 

Brief interjection: wouldn't it be nice to have book reviews on this site of all these great Armenian resources, to encourage curious Armenians like ourselves to be well educated on the issues

 

So figures say about 6,500 Armenians died during the war with Azerbaijan, and about 20-25,000 or so Azerbaijanis died. Armenians & Karabakh won the war, and even took up extra districts in Azerbaijan. They also took over a lot of the guns and superior artillery & equipment left by the Azeri soldiers.

 

Armenians had a higher kill ratio.

 

Ever since the truce, Azerbaijan has been investing heavily into its military:

Addressing Defense Ministry personnel last September, Aliyev announced that defense spending had already risen from $175 million in 2004 to $300 million in 2005 and would double in 2006 to reach $600 million, Turan reported on 17 September.

(citation: http://www.rferl.org/featuresarticle/2006/...03d486b46.html)

 

Armenia has also been investing in military, though we can't possibly afford to invest that kind of money.

 

If there was another war, the question is, this time, how many Armenians will die? Will we be able to maintain a high kill ratio? Will we keep our lands?

 

Think about the East-West alliance: Azerbajian, Turkey, and somewhat Georgia, US, Israel

North-South: Russia, Armenia, Iran

 

Azerbajian wants its territory back? will they be able to fund an efficient army that will march through and take us over? what will be loss in human capital for Armenia? what will be the economic loss for Armenians?

 

If there was a treaty right now that we could sign to cede the land back to Azerbaijan if they stopped their blockade with us, and Turkey stopped their blockade, so that we might partake in mutually beneficial trade, should we do it?

 

They want us to cede Meghri (southern) so they can connect a pipeline through to Nakhichevan (part of Azeri land) and then to Turkey, instead of having to go through Georgia (which is a whole new problem for them). Should we just cede Meghri and let them build this oil pipeline? will they just take the money from the oil and attack us later and take their other lands back?

 

How long can Armenia live without trading with Turkey and Azerbaijan? Do we have a comparitive advantage that we can use to make a lot of profit from opening up this borders?

 

The scholars who i have read seem to suggest that "Armenia cannot grow sustainably and freely without resolving this Karabakh conflict" - do you agree?

 

If YOU were the President of Armenia, how would you resolve this conflict?

 

Let's open up some discussion.

 

Warmest regards to all.

 

Picture citation: http://www.coe.int/t/e/com/files/events/20...conflict-22.jpg

[Arpa]

They want us to cede Meghri (southern) so they can connect a pipeline through to Nakhichevan (part of Azeri land) and then to Turkey, instead of having to go through Georgia (which is a whole new problem for them). Should we just cede Meghri and let them build this oil pipeline? will they just take the money from the oil and attack us later and take their other lands back?

We are so impatient.

We want all of our problems to be resolved yesterday.

I will not draw on other peoples’ sagas. Be my guest.

Cede Meghri?

How much of her own land did Georgia cede for the pipeline?

Cede Meghri?

Why do people take us for morons? Are we?

Cede Meghri?

Double blockade, triple blockade and now, quadruple and total blockade? We might as well keel over and play dead now rather than wait.

Once again, return what lands? We know that so called 20% “Azeri lands also includes Artsakh proper.. Whoever said Nakhj-avan is Azeri land in the first place, that they want to connect with? They want passage, transit? They must pay.

As to military budget and size, think quality v quantity.

[Aaron]

Transcender, you are concerned because you perceive a threat to Karabakh and Armenia in the future. You don't really like our present situation in a state of relative isolation (economic, transport, etc) but you don't find that catastrophic. Your main fear seems to be the long/average term destruction of Armenia from a war or by the selling of great powers! This is the perception I got by reading your post. Well, of course you have reason to worry! We've discussed this topic extensively under the "artsakh peace process" headline in the same topic, about a year ago or so. Many of us put forth our ideas or stance on future peace deals!

 

From what I see, the situation is as follows: On the ground, what we wanted is ours. We know our claim is legitimate (recognition of Karabakh), the question is whether it is realistic or not.

 

The first "reason" that would compell us to return Artsakh would be the certainty that we will lose it in a war, in which case it would be preferable to return it without a war than with one! In other words, if the force of the enemy makes our long term objective unrealistic we should in turn act accordingly and minimize the damage, be realistic and return everything ... but that force (the enemy's) is not such that it obliges us to reevaluate the feasibility of our project. At least today and in the near future. Our objective is not in the "impossible" category, it is possible and the obstacles in front of us are of course challenging, but can be overcome (as they have already been overcome in the past). Basically, a balance of forces exists presently, it may or may not tilt in the enemy's advantage sometime later (and that would be our mistake), but it isn't so today.

 

The second "reason" to return artsakh would come from the fact that the latter becomes a burden/obstacle in Armenia's path to development! We would be forced to give it up in order to: open borders, have good growth, stop emigration, develope, etc. The Kocharian government showed that Armenia can develope at a very good pace relative to post-communist countries. It still suffers from serious chronic post-soviet problems like a lack of democracy, corruption, etc, but those problems are common to most of its neighboors (that said I don't mean we shouldn't improve in those areas).

 

I am quite busy these days and will not be able to write much, but these were some of my thoughts. I think a lot about this issue, but sometimes I realize I'm just curious and will not really change or decide anything ... and hope our leaders have their heads on their shoulders!

 

A.

[Hellektor]

What Is Your Solution To The Karabakh Issue?

The Karabakh Issue? What Karabakh Issue?

The issue was solved in 1994. ANY change in the present situation is to the detriment of Armenia.

No Artsakh = No Armenia.

 

"Peace" keepers in Artsakh?

Why not peace keepers in the "Azeri" side where peace is not kept?

 

Bringing one million "Azeri" vermin "back" into Armenia to kill us in our sleep, when they don't even have mercy for our dead? And since when there were more than a couple 100,000 "Azeris" in Armenia?

Why doesn't the "Azeri" government house them in 180,000 Armenian usurped homes instead of whining like hyenas, parading their "refugees" in front of the world?

 

What about the 400,000 Armenians who had to escape as a result of genocide?

What about 90% of Armenian territory occupied by the Turkish parasite?

When do the Armenians have to go back to their homeland? 91 years of exile are not enough? What's the hurry for the "Azeri" garbage?

 

If there was another war, the question is, this time, how many Armenians will die? Will we be able to maintain a high kill ratio? Will we keep our lands?

The "Azeri" chickens won't dare start a war.

The warmongering is for internal consumption only.

The first thing that happens when they start a war is that they have to shove the pipeline where the moon won't dare look into.

The English faggots who have financed 30% of the pipeline won't like it either.

And who says spending on military will make the "Azeris" better fighters? Didn't they have far superior equipment last time around?

 

Azerbajian wants its territory back? will they be able to fund an efficient army that will march through and take us over? what will be loss in human capital for Armenia? what will be the economic loss for Armenians?

Its territory???

Azgarbageland was artificially created on mainly Armenian territory, it's so that the Zionist/Freemason world is giving them head for the couple of oil drops, otherwise all the genocidal acts in Sumgait, Baku, Gandzak, Maragha, etc. are punishable by international law.

So is the destruction of about 27,000 Armenian monuments: stone-crosses, cemeteries, churches, monasteries, etc. in Nakhijevan ONLY and in the last ten years.

 

The people of Artsakh decided to secede from Azgarbageland According to Soviet law, therefore, Artsakh has NEVER been a part of independent Azgarbageland.

 

Besides, Azgarbageland started the war. The present situation is the consequence of their actions, not the fault of the Armenians.

 

In any case, the loss will be theirs, because this time around the Armenians hopefully won't be fooled by "Azeri" sniveling for cease-fire and will drive the invaders out of our historic homeland. They better practice their swimming skills, because this time around they'll have to swim across the Caspian back to the hell they come from and the hell they belong.

 

http://www.armeniangenocide.com/photos/data/500/medium/Ashkharhatsouits-for-Web.jpg

 

Reconstruction of Ashkharhatsouits, see how much of Armenia the bogus country is occupying.

Click on the map for a larger image.

 

P.S. As a solution, I would like to see the liberated lands populated by Armenians.

If we could convince 500,000 Armenians to go and live there, they couldn't do a damn thing.

Yes, I know. Where 400,000 Mskheti Turks are willing to come "back" to infest Javakhk and drive the Armenians out, an area where there's a couple of hours of electricity per day, horrible roads, no jobs... no Armenian is willing to go and live in the liberated territories.

[HayZenk]

Artsakh is a free Armenian country.

 

There is no such thing as "Karabakh problem", the term is created by turkchis and their very few international-multinational supporters in order to try to weaken our nation, but the turkchi scum will NEVER get even an inch of our lands.

 

Disturbing the peace of our dead, destroying our khachqars...

 

This makes us even stronger, the liberation of Nakhichevan is not far away!

[Davo88]

... Edited June 27, 2006 by Davo88

[Dave]

Yeah.. Karabagh even has some international recognition in certain maps and softwares... We have started the correction of the Caucasus map, and Azerbaijan can't do anything about it.