What Is The Total Armenian Population?

[DominO123]

I have checked, it is actually a census, but not about the number of Armenians, but rather the language spoken at home from age 5 to over. The census for 2000 is 385,488 for the entire USA, but from the data, it seem that people with two encestories are clearly undercounted. But it is clear thought, that the Armenian population in the US is not near 1 million unlike what is claimed by some.

[kakachik77]

http://www.factmonster.com/ipka/A0762137.html

 

here is another source for US number. What I understood people who are from Lebanon, Turkey or Syria are included in their respective countries, NOT under Armenian. Am I wrong?

[aSoldier]

How do you determine an Armenian? One that can speak or write the language, or has 2 Armenian parents? If that's the case, the figures GorGor claims could be true.

[kakachik77]

How do you determine an Armenian? One that can speak or write the language, or has 2 Armenian parents? If that's the case, the figures GorGor claims could be true.

 

sSeb, is their a community of Jerusalem Armenians in Australia?

[aSoldier]

sSeb, is their a community of Jerusalem Armenians in Australia?

 

No, not to my knowledge.

[Dave]

Lebanon is not so bad. Of course it is not the way it was before. In the 1970s, there were 21,000 children attending Armenian schools in Lebanon. Today, it is 9,000. And get this: According to the Armenian church's records, in 1997, there were 250 weddings. FORTY percent were mixed marriages. (Source: http://www.agbu.org/agbunews/display.asp?A_ID=57)

 

I've read that 40% claim too. It's really a shame, considering the fact that the community of Lebanon (where I'm from) is an experienced one, where Armenians stick to each other.

 

The policy of "Lebanon for the Lebanese" also plays a part in this.

[Gor-Gor]

Dave: It was very, very sad for me to read that statistic. I had always held out hope, that even if Armenians in the rest of the world assimilated, the Armenians in Lebanon and Syria would not. It was a shock for me to discover that this wasn't true.

 

(My family is from Syria, by the way. I did visit Beirut though, in 2001.)

 

I guess the more westernized a country becomes, the more quickly Armenians there will assimilate. The US, South America, Russia, and Europe are hopeless for us. Even Turkey (Istanbul is practically European). I guess we can add Lebanon to that list now, too.

 

I guess Syria and Iran are our only Diasporan communities with real prospects of longevity.

[Dave]

The more an ethnic group is persecuted, the more they are inclined to stick together. That was the case in most of the Ottoman cities (either historically Armenian, or non-Armenian), where Armenians had to obey Islamic law.

[Takoush]

The more an ethnic group is persecuted, the more they are inclined to stick together. That was the case in most of the Ottoman cities (either historically Armenian, or non-Armenian), where Armenians had to obey Islamic law.

 

Dave; it's not just persecution. In my opinion, Armenians don't assimilate with non Christians; such as Arabs and moslems, because it is taboo to marry them. At least that's how it was 20+ years ago. Maybe things are changing now. Anyhow, Lebanese people I believe, they are not all Arabs, but mixed some with Armenians, Greeks and somewhat Europeans too. They are much more Europeanized than Syrians or from other Arab countries. That may be the reason as well.

[Takoush]

Also, when I said 20+ years ago that's how it was; I was referring to what my parents used to tell me, at least how things were in Egypt. Don't know that much about Lebanon or Syria; but I assumed they would be similar, because they're all Middle Eastern countries, and I thought that Armenians wouldn't want to assimilate much with Arabs and moslems.

[Arpa]

That is known as the terminal disease of the weak, small, dying, almost extinct cultures.

Bigger and more robust cultures have no problem marrying out of heir cultures. Only the weak and dying abhor it. Not without good reason.

Specially in those countries where marrying out of one’s religion and culture is a one way street. The reasons may be that those other religions consider apostasy, conversion as capital sins punishable by death however in the Armenian case the notion the xenophobic attitude that an Armenian is one who is born such, all other candidate need not apply.

How many mixed marriages do you know where the “otar” converts to Armenian?

Will be accept them? Or will they forever be: Meet my wife, husband. Her name is Colleen, she is Irish. Or, my husband Mohammed, he is Moslem ?

When is the last time that anyone converted and BECAME Armenian???

Edited February 3, 2006 by Arpa

[Takoush]

I know of one specific a very pretty a very gracious and a smart English Canadian woman who intermarried with an Armenian fellow also distinguished himself. She would bring her children to our Armenian Center out of love and of respect to her husband. She was the only one that I could remember. Unlike almost all of the French Canadian women practically degenerates, she was the only classy woman that stood out as being a true credit to her gender.

 

In here in the United States, I know two other American women that are involved themselves with Armenians and Garmir Khatch and they also bring their children to Armenian Centers and to Armenian schools. But they are rarety, I'm afraid.

[Dave]

How many mixed marriages do you know where the “otar” converts to Armenian?

 

I think that it depends of how strong and reputed the Armenian community is in the city where the marriage takes place.

 

They are much more Europeanized than Syrians or from other Arab countries.

 

In pre-Islamic Iran (approx. 50 years ago), Armenians didn't intermarry with Iranians, even when Iran was nearly a European country.

[Azat]

When is the last time that anyone converted and BECAME Armenian???

 

There is one and he is right now on display at the National museum in Yerevan.

[vava]

How many mixed marriages do you know where the “otar” converts to Armenian?

Will be accept them? Or will they forever be: Meet my wife, husband. Her name is Colleen, she is Irish. Or, my husband Mohammed, he is Moslem ?

When is the last time that anyone converted and BECAME Armenian???

 

Armenians won't premit it. Even if we exclude moslems & jews and we only consider inter-christian marriages, Armenian families aren't likely to accept the 'otar' wife/husband. Armenians often don't like to 'share' their culture - they will certainly be proud of it, but more often then not, Armenians regard their culture as a commodity onto which they wish to hold exclusive rights. The otar new comer to the family sadly doesn't have the right to share in that commodity - and if we're aiming for growth in diaspora, we must be more inclusive and create the community structures that not only accept mixed marriage, but help bring the otars of mixed marriages "into the fold" - so they can also be part of the Armenian culture.

 

 

I know of one specific a very pretty a very gracious and a smart English Canadian woman who intermarried with an Armenian fellow also distinguished himself. She would bring her children to our Armenian Center out of love and of respect to her husband. She was the only one that I could remember. Unlike almost all of the French Canadian women practically degenerates, she was the only classy woman that stood out as being a true credit to her gender.

 

What is this about French Canadian women being degenerates?? Very strange - I know only two 'French Canadian' women who are involved with Armenians, but both of them are strong supporters of Armenian and Armenian culture. One, in fact, has been to Armenia 6 times already - she even helps run tours for other 'otars' married to Armenians! But I won't use one simple example to make a crazy generalization. I just don't get the point of your post Takuhi jan...

[Takoush]

What is this about French Canadian women being degenerates?? Very strange - I know only two 'French Canadian' women who are involved with Armenians, but both of them are strong supporters of Armenian and Armenian culture. One, in fact, has been to Armenia 6 times already - she even helps run tours for other 'otars' married to Armenians! But I won't use one simple example to make a crazy generalization. I just don't get the point of your post Takuhi jan...

Vava; I wish I was making a crazy generalization but unfortunately I am not; when I was there, many Armenian Egyptian guys intermarried with French Canadian girls and you have no idea the terrible things we used to hear from either their husbands or from their in-laws. Almost all of the Armenian guys had to divorce, because the French women either used to drink too much, practically abuse their husbands and in-laws to the point that I have to write lengthy posts to you now to explain the bad things they used to do. And it isn't one or two. The majority of our boys; percentage wise about more than 50-60 percent intermarried with French Canadian women and they were all bad news. Yes very few were Ok or good, but very few. They used to tell such stories to my parents and I am not kidding.

 

But I see now that your perception of them is good. I'm glad.

[vava]

That's exactly the problem - I don't have a perception of "them". I bet if you were to speak to the wives families, you could probably end up with a bad "perception" of Egyptian-Armenian men. You see how that works? Generalizations based upon a few anecdotes aren't necessarily facts.

 

Anyway - forgive me, this is way off topic.

[Takoush]

That's exactly the problem - I don't have a perception of "them". I bet if you were to speak to the wives families, you could probably end up with a bad "perception" of Egyptian-Armenian men. You see how that works? Generalizations based upon a few anecdotes aren't necessarily facts.

 

Anyway - forgive me, this is way off topic.

The stories we've heard were hardly anecdotes and most of the ex-Armenian Egyptian families that their sons intermarried with French Canadian women were from good families. They wouldn't lie; and we have heard such things from others as well and from very good sources.

[vava]

Thank you for proving my point.

[Takoush]

Thank you for proving my point.

When I said stories, you took it literally, but you cease to understand that these were not some generalizations based on some non-factual facts. At the time these women unfortunately did some real crazy things; so we were told and understood. I don't wish to speak about this at length vava. But this was not an unrealistic generalization. Of course one knows more so behind closed doors. But let's face it there is bearable things and unbearable things that you hear and base your opinion on them. And the people that told us were far from making stupid and unrealistic tales. A few may be good, but when a vast majority of these marriages ended up in unhappy unions and divorces, one forms an opinion, and you cannot say that after all it's not logical to form an opinion based on the vast majority of cases.

[Arpa]

When I read the above testimonials it brings to mind a story I saw on TV some time ago.

I don’t remember the title. I was about Harry Houdini, born Erich Weiss, father a Rabbi of a Polish Jewish ancestry.

The one scene that was forever etched my memory is how his bride a Christian (played by Bernadette Peters, I think) was tortured by her mother-in law, a cruelly fanatic Jew. The gentile bride was never accepted, no matter how hard she tried, going to indoctrination sessions, learning the language and the religious nonsense. One picture sticks, as how she was trying to impress her mother in law, reciting some nonsense mantra she had just leaned. The camera would alternate pictures of the anguished and tortured face of the bride to the cruelly stern and hateful face of the matriarch.

 

I will say no more except that ever since we spoke about “hospitality” (see my “A Christmas Story”), I have had this thought dancing I my head, so much so that I intend to initiate a thread about it..

What is hospitality?

How do we measure it?

Specially when it come to the so called “legendary Armenian hospitality“ and tolerance.

[vava]

When I said stories, you took it literally, but you cease to understand that these were not some generalizations based on some non-factual facts. At the time these women unfortunately did some real crazy things; so we were told and understood. I don't wish to speak about this at length vava. But this was not an unrealistic generalization. Of course one knows more so behind closed doors. But let's face it there is bearable things and unbearable things that you hear and base your opinion on them. And the people that told us were far from making stupid and unrealistic tales. A few may be good, but when a vast majority of these marriages ended up in unhappy unions and divorces, one forms an opinion, and you cannot say that after all it's not logical to form an opinion based on the vast majority of cases.

Anahid - yes I certainly can say it's illogical.

 

One thing that my relatively limited experience has taught me is to not place ANY stock on the credibilty of "stories" told by in-laws of relationships gone bad - especially in Armenian gossip circles. Boy some of the "stories" I have heard would make you stand on your head - but rather sadly, there is very little truth them - most are concocted to "save face" in front of other family members lest their son/nephew/cousin look bad. There are motives behind these stories - and old-world families are masters of this kind of "public relations spin". Sheesh!

 

What is hospitality?

How do we measure it?

Specially when it come to the so called “legendary Armenian hospitality“ and tolerance.

 

Legendary Armenian hospitality is ever-present when welcoming otars into our households. But it morphs into some unrecognizable sort of resentment when that otar gets close - or seeks marriage into the family. There the welcome ends, the hospitality disappears and the rifts begin.

Edited February 4, 2006 by vava

[kakachik77]

Anahid - yes I certainly can say it's illogical.

 

One thing that my relatively limited experience has taught me is to not place ANY stock on the credibilty of "stories" told by in-laws of relationships gone bad - especially in Armenian gossip circles. Boy some of the "stories" I have heard would make you stand on your head - but rather sadly, there is very little truth them - most are concocted to "save face" in front of other family members lest their son/nephew/cousin look bad. There are motives behind these stories - and old-world families are masters of this kind of "public relations spin". Sheesh!

Legendary Armenian hospitality is ever-present when welcoming otars into our households. But it morphs into some unrecognizable sort of resentment when that otar gets close - or seeks marriage into the family. There the welcome ends, the hospitality disappears and the rifts begin.

 

Vava, then can we concur that this hospitality is in fact FAKE. Why don't these people (and I say this since my armenian family will never act like this) show their real face from the very beginning?

[Takoush]

Vava, then can we concur that this hospitality is in fact FAKE. Why don't these people (and I say this since my armenian family will never act like this) show their real face from the very beginning?

Neither my Armenian family would never act like this.

 

As a matter of fact one of my youngest uncle's wife is an all American beautiful woman and I love her greatly. She is extremely smart and I love her heart very much as well. And the feeling between my immediate family and my American aunt is completely mutual.

Edited February 5, 2006 by Anahid Takouhi

[vava]

Vava, then can we concur that this hospitality is in fact FAKE. Why don't these people (and I say this since my armenian family will never act like this) show their real face from the very beginning?

 

Allow me to clarify, lest I be misunderstood. My post was in reponse to Arpa's original post where he asks, "How many mixed marriages do you know where the “otar” converts to Armenian?" and "When is the last time that anyone converted and BECAME Armenian???" And it was under that context (otar-Armenian marriage) that I made my comments on Armenian hospitality.

 

When I said the Armenian hospitality comes to an end, I was perhaps being a tad cynical. My point was that many Armenian families will often welcome, love and accept their otar daughters&sons-in-law, however there exists a line that's not very often crossed. That line is where the newcomer is actually considered family - and hence Armenian. Anahit still refers to her Uncle's wife as her "AMERICAN" aunt - her family loves her, and yet she's not blood - she's still an outsider... you see what I'm trying to say?

There's no malevolence there, or 'fakeness' for that matter - it's a subconcious thing likely, brought about by generations of victimisation. But that's another topic - I hope I clarified my comments a bit

 

Neither my Armenian family would never act like this.

 

As a matter of fact one of my youngest uncle's wife is an all American beautiful woman and I love her greatly. She is extremely smart and I love her heart very much as well. And the feeling between my immediate family and my American aunt is completely mutual.

That's wonderful I have similar relationships with my cousins wives.

Edited February 5, 2006 by vava