What Is The Total Armenian Population?

[Lev7]

On Wikipedia it states 8 million, some other site claims 6.5 million. What is the correct figure anyone know?

[DominO123]

On Wikipedia it states 8 million, some other site claims 6.5 million. What is the correct figure anyone know?

 

No one really knows, there are differences between Armenian estimations and recorded population. Canada census for example, are really different than what Armenians estimates. Armenians estimates about 100 thousand, Canada census estimates less than half that figure. But, the Canada census ethnic proportions(the one of 2001) was asked to 1 out of 5, and projected(household). When taking this into consideration and many more reason(that I won't enumerate, unless you want to), I have personally placed the population to be less than 80,000, close to 70,000. (range from 50 to 80 thousand and I believe that the true number is on the right side of the middle)

 

I consider the world Armenian population to be something like 7.5-8 million. I have many statistics taken from the 20s back to today, and the increases of population and projection concord when the actual population is placed at 7.5-8 million. (closer to 7.5 than 8 million)

 

One of the problems is the estimations for Russia, which in my sense in many cases is underestimated. And Armenia probably has less than 3 million people, regardless of the bogus biased statistics the government present.

 

Many believe 10 million, or I have even seen 15 million... but those figures worth can be seriously disputed, in my belief there is no way there could be that much Armenian in the world.

[Arpa]

FIASCO!!!

A word from the Latin that literally mean a “bottle”, from which the English word “flask” derives. and used to infer a “total failure”. I don’t quite get it except that in the English we have an expression- “bottle neck” that can best be illustrated when a four lane traffic squeezes and merges into one lane. Use your imagination. Fiasco?? Total failure??

There is not a single word in the Armenian for “fiasco”. It is eventually interpreted as “kataryal dzakhoghoum/կատարեալ ձախողում and ՖԻԱՍԿՈ. Total failure.

 

It all depends who is counting and what their motive.

The reason why even today , more than a 150 years after we are still debating numbers an d figures. Whether it was a Genocide or just a collateral damage, whether it was 1.5 million, 600,000 or even 300.000.

 

Anywhere from 900,000 to 2.5 million.??

See for yourself.

Sorry for the length of the article, but at times these sites are removed.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_Armenian_population

 

Ottoman Armenian population

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

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The size of the Armenian population within the Ottoman Empire in 1914-1915 is a controversial topic, but most estimates range from 1.5 million to over 2.5 million. Establishing the size of the Ottoman Armenian population is very important to have an accurate estimation of the Armenian losses between 1915 to 1923 during what is called the Armenian genocide and what followed as the Turkish war of independence. This article present some statistics of the Armenian population within the Ottoman Empire.

Contents

[hide]

1 Ottoman statistics and their critics

1.1 The Ottoman statistics

1.2 The historic Armenian population prior to the Berlin Treaty of 1878 and the 1881/82 statistics.

1.3 The historic Armenian population from the 1881/82 to 1905 statistics.

1.4 The Censuses conducted under the Abdul Hamid regime

2 Armenian Patriarchate Statistics and its critics.

2.1 Armenian Patriarchate figures

2.2 The Armenian Patriarchate figures revisited

3 Western records

4 See also

5 Notes

 

[edit]

 

Ottoman statistics and their critics

[edit]

 

The Ottoman statistics

While the Ottoman had records of populations prior to the 1830s, it was only in 1831 that it has founded the Office of Population Registers fund (Ceride-i Nüfus Nezareti). To draw more accurate data, the Office found itself decentralized in 1839; registrars inspectors and population officials were appointed to the provinces and smaller administrative, recording birth and deaths periodically and to compare lists which indicated the population in each districts. The problem with such records, were that instead of being total count of population, they were rather based on what is known as “head of household,” male family members, ages, occupation, and property.

The Council of States was later founded in 1867 and took the charges of drawing population tables, increasing the precision of population records. The evolution progressed from the new measures introduced in 1874, which lead in 1881/82 to the establishment of a General Population Administration which was attached to the Ministry of Interior, which somehow politicized population counts.

[edit]

 

The historic Armenian population prior to the Berlin Treaty of 1878 and the 1881/82 statistics.

In 1844, the Ottoman recorded 2.4 million Armenians within the Ottoman Empire, in 1867, this number was maintained; wherever or not it was due to a political move as to not record any Armenian growth for a period of 23 years is unknown. After the internalization of the Armenian question, and what followed as the Treaty of Berlin, and the possibility of an Armenian self governing nation, the first record of the General Population Administration under AbdhulHamid guidance, was lower than half that figure(in 1881/82). While the Ottoman Empire in the 1877-78 lost Batum, Kars and Ardahan, the population of Armenian statistics for those regions would have influenced the “losses” of population, but can not account for the other million or more Armenian that are just missing in the records of 1881/82 during AbdulHamid reign.

[edit]

 

The historic Armenian population from the 1881/82 to 1905 statistics.

From 1881/82 to the 1905 census, the Armenian population census statistics followed a near constant increase.

The Ottoman statistics, has been used by an American demographer and Ottoman expert, professor Justin McCarthy who mostly relied on those “census” to draw the Armenian population within the Ottoman Empire. The records McCarthy mostly bases himself on are those of 1911-1912, 1905 and 1895/96. By using the Ottoman records of population and applying the population stability theory by using the men half pyramid, he provided the figures of 1,698,301.[1]

While McCarthy numbers are the result of extensive studies, they have been highly contested by many specialists. Some of them, like Frédéric Paulin, have severely criticized McCarthy's methodology and suggested them to be flawed methodologically.[2] Hilmar Kaiser[3] another specialist has made similar claims. In the same direction, professor Vahakn N. Dadrian[4] and professor Levon Marashlian.[5]

The critics not only question McCarthy's methodology and calculation, but as well his primary source which were the Ottoman said “censuses.” They point out to the fact that there was no official statistic census in 1912, but they were rather based on the records of 1905 which were conducted during Abdul Hamid reign.[6]

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The Censuses conducted under the Abdul Hamid regime

It is the fact that the 1912 records are based on a “census” that was conducted under the Hamidian regime that according to the critics, makes it dubious. Turkish records as well suggest that Abdul Hamid might have intentionally undercounted the Armenian population.

The Turkish author Kâzım Kadri for instance writes: “During the reign of Abdul Hamid we lowered the population figures of the Armenians...” He as well add: “By the order of Abdul Hamid the number of the Armenians deliberately had been put in low figures.”[7]

Other evidences suggest such undercounts as to cut in half the actual Armenian population. In the district of Mus(compromising Mus plain, Sassoun, and the counties of Mus) for example, the Armenian official in charge of the census was Garabed Potigian, who presented the official figures as 225,000 Armenians and 55,000 Turks, upon the insistence of his Turkish superiors he was forced to reduce the Armenian population to 105,000 and increase the Turkish population to 95,000.[8] Lynch himself report similar incidences: “Pursuing our way, we meet an Armenian priest—a young, broad-shouldered, open-faced man. He seems inclined to speak, so we ask him how many churches there may be in Mush(Mus). He answers, seven; but the commissary had said four. A soldier addresses him in Kurdish; the poor fellow turns pale, and remarks that he was mistaken in saying seven; there cannot be more than four ...Such are a few of our experiences during our short sojourn at Mush.”[9]

Abdul Hamid has even considered in 1895 during the “census” period, the under evaluation presented to him of 900,000 as exaggeration...[10] but apparently they have settled to the figures we know as the Ottoman census.

The German chief of staff of the Ottoman Third Army, Colonel Felix Guse, complained that "The Turks knew only poorly their country, on top of that the possibility of getting reliable statistical figures was out of the question.[11]

Fa'iz El-Ghusein the Kaimakam of Kharpout wrote in his book, that according to the Ottoman official statistics there were about 1,9 million Armenian's in the Ottoman Empire.[12]

Another indication that other statistics might have existed is that Polybius in his book published in 1919, refer to a said “Ottoman Official Census of 1910.”[13] But Justin McCarthy has questioned the information and considered it fabrication.[14]

The Turkish historian Dr. Secil Akgun, claimed: “The Ottomans do not have a definite number. That is, we have in our hands contradictory numbers regarding the Armenian population within the borders of the Ottoman Empire. I would think that Basmacıyan gives the most accurate number. This is to be between two and three million.”[15]

Other problem arises, and it is the fact that the Ottoman census statistics have maintained constant increase for the Armenian population from the period where between 1894-1897, an estimated 100,000 to 300,000 Armenians lost their lives during the Hamidian massacres. While the minimum in the range represent the Armenian increases of population over years, the 1905 census hasn't shown any anomaly of Armenian increases, which suggest that there might have been a fixed quota of Armenian population, and that regardless of the census, there was much more Armenians within the Empire.

Another element that add, is that many Armenians, like many Jews and Christians, were considered as foreigners, because they had foreign nationalities or enjoyed the protection of foreign consulates and those for were not counted in those census statistics.

To this, adds that Armenians were as well purposely under counting themselves to escape the military tax by not registering.

The result of all those factors, is that the Armenian population censuses, according to the specialists that criticize them, is an important under counting of the Armenian population, that could have gone as far as misrepresenting it by half. Lynch critic itself regarding including all the Muslim together, when there was probably Armenians in the count, is supported by the Ottoman census, that contain an anomaly that in some region like Van, the Muslim population from one census to the other jumped to about 50%, suggesting that numbers for the Ottoman government could have been used as political tool, and going as far as transferring Armenians in the table as Muslim.

In short, even though the Ottoman records were official data, and that few Western specialists and most Turkish specialists rely on them, most Western scholars ignore those data, because according to them they were unreliable.

[edit]

 

Armenian Patriarchate Statistics and its critics.

[edit]

 

Armenian Patriarchate figures

Various Armenian Patriarchate figures were presented, but one of those that seemed the most complete was published in Marcel Léart (Krikor Zohrab) book.[16] It is said that the records were supposedly based on records of baptisms and deaths kept by the ecclesiastical officials. Those figures though excluded the regions where Armenian population was not considerable, as well as excluded the areas outside of the six vilayets.

The problem with such numbers, is that there has been no records of whatever or not the statistics were really based on baptisms and deaths certificates kept by the ecclesiastical officials. For those reason, Justin McCarthy and few other Western scholars as well as most Turkish specialists believe them to be fabrication. Just for comparison, the Patriarchate Statistics of Armenian's in the “Six Vilayets” known as Ottoman Armenia, there was a reported 1,018,000 Armenian's against 784,914 for the Ottoman figures.

[edit]

 

The Armenian Patriarchate figures revisited

Another set of Armenian Patriarchate figures were published in 1913. Armenian sources records for this statistic have more ground than the first one in that they are based on actual archival records. In 1992, Raymond H. Kevorkian and Paul B. Paboudjian have published a work which present “precision” to the last digit, for each Ottoman provinces from the Armenian archives. For the figure of the entire Ottoman population, those records indicate 1,914,620[17] closely matching with the Ottoman statistics for the Western part of the Ottoman, but diverge in the Eastern zone, where the Ottoman statistics are suspected to have considerably undercounted the Armenian population. And even in some instances, the actual Ottoman counts after McCarthys correction were higher in some regions than those statistics, indicating that those figures might have been possibly a serious records and might have under-counted Armenian's in some instances.

[edit]

 

Western records

There has been various Western records representing the Armenian population, but demographical figures representing the total Armenian population within the Ottoman Empire were few.

Vital Cuinet a French geographer that was charged to survey areas and count their population. His figures were also used to establish the ability of the Ottoman Empire to pay its debts, Cuinet eager to get precise numbers was finally forced to conclude that it was not possible to get them, he gives two main reasons for this.

The limitations imposed by the Turkish authorities made his researches inconclusive.

Because of the lack of control of the Turkish authorities for farther provinces, it was impossible for him to complete his work.

An example often referred by the critics, was Cuinet's statistics drawn from Turkish authority numbers and information that they provided him regarding the Vilayet of Aleppo (classified in those works as the sandjak of Marash). The number is an impossible 4,300. While only in the city of Marash the Catholic and Protestant Armenians were numbering 6008, and this without including the Gregorians.

Cuinet at the beginning of his work, cautioned the reader by declaring: "The science of statistics so worthy and interesting, not only still is not used in this country but even the authorities refuses, with a party line, to accept any investigation."

Regardless of what could have been considered as an indirect admission of under counting. Cuinet presented 840,000 for 1891-92, of what was called “Armenian Villayet” a figure higher than the one presented from Ottoman statistics.[18]

Henry Finnis Bloss Lynch a British geographer-ethnographer followed by his own studies, he came with 1,058,000 for the beginning of 1890s for “Turkish Armenia.” Lynch indirectly reported as well, like Cuinet, a deliberate Ottoman policy of under counting. Nonetheless, Lynch figures were well worked around, but he as well cautioned the reader regarding the misleading character of the term “Muslim” since many Armenian's converted and were counted as Muslim, while they were still in practice Armenian Christians.[19]

The British official figures at the embassy were relied upon careful investigations like those of Lynch, when comparing those figures with Ottoman figures Zamir concludes: "the provinces of Van, Bitlis, Mamuretal-Aziz (Harput), Diyarbekir, Erzerum, and the independent district of Maras, where British figures are 62 percent higher (847,000) compared with 523,065.” For those reasons he was forced to conclude: “The understatement of the non-Moslem figures appears to be intentional."[20]

The German professor, Herman Wambery, whom was recognized as a Turcophile, and supposedly had good connection with Turkish authorities presented as figures for Turkish Armenia: 1,130,000 in 1896.[21]

Samuel Cox at the American Embassy in Istanbul from 1880 to 1886, estimated the Armenian population within the empire to be of 2,4 million.[22]

The problem with such figures is that they do not cover the same regions. For instance, many time “Anatolia” is equalled with the Ottoman empire, other times there are partial statistics, representing one region, like Turkish Armenia, Ottoman Armenia, Asiatic Turkey, Anatolia, Ottoman Empire, 6 Armenian Villeyets, 9 Armenian Villeyets etc.

Another problem with such figures, is that those numbers were drawn in a period of about 20 or even 30 years. Most from 1890 to 1915.

German official figures representing the Armenian population within the Empire was above 1,9 million, to a 2 million.[23]

Toynbee settle to between 1.6 to 2.0 million, and states that the real number is probably closer to 2 million. Pushing the median slightly on the right side of 1.8 million.[24]

Ludovic de Contenson, present the figure of 1,150,000 for Asiatic Turkey, and call them “statistics” without any sources. His numbers suggest that they might actually be the Ottoman census statistics, without correction.[25]

Most Western scholars believe the totality of the Armenian population within the Empire prior to 1915 to be between 1.8 and 2.1 million.

[edit]

[DominO123]

Arpa, he was more talking about the current Armenian population.

 

BTW, I wrote the article you have posted.

[DominO123]

Another thing, since you have raised the Ottoman Armenian population, there is no question that the population was of 2 million and possibly over. I will be expending that article with new data at summer.

[Lev7]

No one really knows, there are differences between Armenian estimations and recorded population. Canada census for example, are really different than what Armenians estimates. Armenians estimates about 100 thousand, Canada census estimates less than half that figure. But, the Canada census ethnic proportions(the one of 2001) was asked to 1 out of 5, and projected(household). When taking this into consideration and many more reason(that I won't enumerate, unless you want to), I have personally placed the population to be less than 80,000, close to 70,000. (range from 50 to 80 thousand and I believe that the true number is on the right side of the middle)

 

I consider the world Armenian population to be something like 7.5-8 million. I have many statistics taken from the 20s back to today, and the increases of population and projection concord when the actual population is placed at 7.5-8 million. (closer to 7.5 than 8 million)

 

One of the problems is the estimations for Russia, which in my sense in many cases is underestimated. And Armenia probably has less than 3 million people, regardless of the bogus biased statistics the government present.

 

Many believe 10 million, or I have even seen 15 million... but those figures worth can be seriously disputed, in my belief there is no way there could be that much Armenian in the world.

 

around 8 million what most sources indicated also, but several estimate around 6.5 million and that is why I got confused. Thanks for your detailed reply and thanks to Arpa also

Edited January 20, 2006 by Lev7

[Arpa]

Arpa, he was more talking about the current Armenian population.

I knew that.

I'm sure you got my intended message.

That is; Is the statistics of this 21st century scientifically any better than that of the 19th?

BTW, I wrote the article you have posted.

I kind of suspected that.

Good for you!

Edited January 20, 2006 by Arpa

[Dave]

Many believe 10 million, or I have even seen 15 million... but those figures worth can be seriously disputed, in my belief there is no way there could be that much Armenian in the world.

 

Maybe those numbers take into account the Hamshentsi Armenians, and other Islamicized Armenians of Turkey and northern Syria.

 

Another thing, since you have raised the Ottoman Armenian population, there is no question that the population was of 2 million and possibly over. I will be expending that article with new data at summer.

 

According to the 1821 census (from the Patriarchate), there were around 2.1 million Armenians living in the Ottoman Empire. It must have been more than 2.5 million by the end of the 19th century, and the beginning of the 20th century, even if you take into account all the diseases and the Hamidian massacre.

[aSoldier]

The problem lies with the census. Seeing as how there is no 'Armenian' option in "What ethnicity are you?", most Armenians tend to tick the 'White/Caucasian' box instead.

 

http://www.armeniadiaspora.com/followup/population.html

 

All up, it seems to be around 11 million or so.

[Sip]

Actually, I always tick the "Pacific Islander / Philipino" box .. I'm not joking.

[DominO123]

The problem lies with the census. Seeing as how there is no 'Armenian' option in "What ethnicity are you?", most Armenians tend to tick the 'White/Caucasian' box instead.

 

http://www.armeniadiaspora.com/followup/population.html

 

All up, it seems to be around 11 million or so.

 

The 8 million considers this. That link isen't serious, I have already talked about the reference there.

[aSoldier]

Actually, I always tick the "Pacific Islander / Philipino" box .. I'm not joking.

 

good job!

[Gor-Gor]

It depends on who you consider to be "Armenian."

 

There are thousands of very assimilated Armenians all across the US, many of whom are only 1/4 Armenian, or less. Are these people Armenian? How should we count whether someone is Armenian or not? By whether they speak the language? By their last name? By whether they consider themselves Armenian? Etc, etc, etc.

 

The US Census estimates that there are 155,000 Armenian language speakers in California; 8500 in New York; 8000 in Massachusetts, and so forth, with just over 200,000 in all of the US. These people, for sure, we will consider Armenian. But what about the rest? How will we measure them? Church membership?

 

Anyway. I just wanted to point out that there is NO WAY to give an accurate estimate of the number of Armenians in the Diaspora, because we do not have an agreed-upon definition for what it means to be an Armenian in the Diaspora.

 

In any event, my own estimate is a little under 6 million. I consider "Armenian" someone who 1) considers himself an Armenian; and 2) feels some connection to his heritage (not necessarily through language).

 

Here's how it goes in my head:

 

Armenia, Karabagh, Javakhk - 3 million

 

Lebanon & Syria - 120,000

Iran - 100,000

Turkey - 60,000

Other Middle Eastern countries - 10,000

 

Russia - 1.5 million

France - 200,000

Other CIS - 50,000

Other Europe - 50,000

 

North America - 500,000

 

South America - 50,000

 

Australia - 30,000

[Lev7]

It depends on who you consider to be "Armenian."

 

There are thousands of very assimilated Armenians all across the US, many of whom are only 1/4 Armenian, or less. Are these people Armenian? How should we count whether someone is Armenian or not? By whether they speak the language? By their last name? By whether they consider themselves Armenian? Etc, etc, etc.

 

The US Census estimates that there are 155,000 Armenian language speakers in California; 8500 in New York; 8000 in Massachusetts, and so forth, with just over 200,000 in all of the US. These people, for sure, we will consider Armenian. But what about the rest? How will we measure them? Church membership?

 

Anyway. I just wanted to point out that there is NO WAY to give an accurate estimate of the number of Armenians in the Diaspora, because we do not have an agreed-upon definition for what it means to be an Armenian in the Diaspora.

 

In any event, my own estimate is a little under 6 million. I consider "Armenian" someone who 1) considers himself an Armenian; and 2) feels some connection to his heritage (not necessarily through language).

 

Here's how it goes in my head:

 

Armenia, Karabagh, Javakhk - 3 million

 

Lebanon & Syria - 120,000

Iran - 100,000

Turkey - 60,000

Other Middle Eastern countries - 10,000

 

Russia - 1.5 million

France - 200,000

Other CIS - 50,000

Other Europe - 50,000

 

North America - 500,000

 

South America - 50,000

 

Australia - 30,000

 

 

Only California has 500k Armenians, the whole U.S. I would guess will be well over 1 million. To be Armenian in my opinion you have to have an Armenian last name and be aware that you are Armenian, by at least knowing something about the Armenian culture.

[Gor-Gor]

The 1 million figure is too optimistic, taking into consideration the rapid pace of assimilation of Armenians in the USA over the generations.

[DominO123]

It depends on who you consider to be "Armenian."

 

There are thousands of very assimilated Armenians all across the US, many of whom are only 1/4 Armenian, or less. Are these people Armenian? How should we count whether someone is Armenian or not? By whether they speak the language? By their last name? By whether they consider themselves Armenian? Etc, etc, etc.

 

The US Census estimates that there are 155,000 Armenian language speakers in California; 8500 in New York; 8000 in Massachusetts, and so forth, with just over 200,000 in all of the US. These people, for sure, we will consider Armenian. But what about the rest? How will we measure them? Church membership?

 

Anyway. I just wanted to point out that there is NO WAY to give an accurate estimate of the number of Armenians in the Diaspora, because we do not have an agreed-upon definition for what it means to be an Armenian in the Diaspora.

 

In any event, my own estimate is a little under 6 million. I consider "Armenian" someone who 1) considers himself an Armenian; and 2) feels some connection to his heritage (not necessarily through language).

 

Here's how it goes in my head:

 

Armenia, Karabagh, Javakhk - 3 million

 

Lebanon & Syria - 120,000

Iran - 100,000

Turkey - 60,000

Other Middle Eastern countries - 10,000

 

Russia - 1.5 million

France - 200,000

Other CIS - 50,000

Other Europe - 50,000

 

North America - 500,000

 

South America - 50,000

 

Australia - 30,000

 

Your numbers are way too pessimistic. Armenia population projection if there was no emmigration would have been of 4 million. From your numbers, it'll mean less than 2 million Diaspora, and when substracting ex-communist countries Armenian population projection if there was no emmigration, it would 'pulverise' the rest of the Armenian population to nearly noting.

 

There is a little over 1.5 million Armenian missing in your estimates. And I think that an estimate is possible, and that the official Armenian population estimate released few years back of 7.5 million was the most precise.

 

There are other older estimates which show that this range is not that far from reality. Late 70s to the beggining 80s, there was an estimated over 6 million Armenians (6,151,000, estimation by Kevrok K. Baghdjian). Before 1915, there was a little over 4 million, in the 20s, it was over 2.2 million...

 

The assimilation rate is included.

 

But the population has picked, the assimilation rate has somehow reached the birth rate.

[aSoldier]

Only 60K in Turkey? No way. Edited January 25, 2006 by sSebB

[Gor-Gor]

The 60,000 figure for Turkey is the official figure from the Armenian Patriarchate of Istanbul. I can't remember whether it is only for Istanbul. But even if it is, I can't imagine there would be more than a few thousand (if that) Armenians left in the rest of Turkey. Of course, this does not count the Hamshen Armenians.

 

As for my pessimistic figures -- the only one that I will admit to being pessimistic is the North America figure. Maybe it's closer to 600-700,000, but I put 500,000 because the rates of assimilation and mixed marriage are so high. The same goes for France. I've heard figures close to 300,000 -- but I know from personal experience that assimilation is strong there, too.

 

Russia's 1.5 million Armenians are the largest Diaspora -- but they are the least organized. I imagine this lack of organization will is resulting in rapid assimilation. There is not one Armenian school in all of Russia. And also, most of the Armenians knew Russian before they went to Russia, so assimilating becomes even easier. Very sad...

Edited January 25, 2006 by Gor-Gor

[Dave]

Lebanon & Syria - 120,000

 

I think that there are a lot more Armenians there, more like 300 000 (with 150 000 in Lebanon, and another 150 000 in Syria).

 

The 150 000 figure is taken from the CIA factbook, according to which 4% of the total Lebanese population is Armenian. 4% of 3,826,018 makes 153 040.

 

The Syria figure is taken from here: http://i-cias.com/e.o/syria_4.htm

 

North America - 500,000

 

Certain news sites state that there are 500 000 Armenians in LA only.

Edited January 29, 2006 by Dave

[Arpa]

The 60,000 figure for Turkey is the official figure from the Armenian Patriarchate of Istanbul. I can't remember whether it is only for Istanbul. But even if it is, I can't imagine there would be more than a

Dear Gor-Gor,

Did you read my post a few above?

Since when the "patriarchate" become a scientifically certified census taker?

We need science not alchemy. We need a census, not a church record of the dues paying faihful. What if many Armenians are not "faithful" and not "dues-paying"?

They don't "count"?

How many residents of the RA are dues paying faithful? A couple of hundred?

Or, do they open the phone book and count all names ending in -ian, like BalaSubramanian, Sebastian, Killian, Hassanian, Mehmetian and Turkoglu-ian?

Edited January 29, 2006 by Arpa

[aSoldier]

I say there are about 1 million in Turkey

[MosJan]

i don;t know the total but you can add 2 more Boys to it - my friend & Wife just had twins Masis & Ararat

 

Boghoqner kan ? HAyeri Koghmits chkan

 

Antsnenq Araj

[Gor-Gor]

Dave: There is absolutely no way that there are 300,000 Armenians in Syria and Lebanon. Half of the Armenians in Lebanon have left. And more than half of the Armenians in Syria have fled.

 

The 40,000 - 50,000 figure for Syria is very accurate. I have relatives there, and they tell me themselves -- "Gardzes te hay che mnatsadz Haleb..." A few years ago, the church even had a "badvo yerego" in Aleppo in honor of women who have had lots of children. I know, because my grandmother was one of the honorees. They were honoring those women to encourage young Armenian women in Aleppo today to form large families, because the population has dwindled. Aleppo can't even support a daily newspaper.

 

Lebanon is not so bad. Of course it is not the way it was before. In the 1970s, there were 21,000 children attending Armenian schools in Lebanon. Today, it is 9,000. And get this: According to the Armenian church's records, in 1997, there were 250 weddings. FORTY percent were mixed marriages. (Source: http://www.agbu.org/agbunews/display.asp?A_ID=57)

 

In addition to that AGBU article, my figures are supported by an enyclopedia published in Yerevan in 2003. It's called "Hay Spiurk," and it gives information of every Armenian community in the world, by country. I was doing research at LA's Central Library, and I came across it. While I did not copy the population figures, I do remember that the book stated Lebanon's Armenian population at 120,000 and Syria's at 40-50,000.

 

As for half a million in Los Angeles. According to the US Census, there are 138,015 Armenian language speakers in Los Angeles County (this includes Hollywood, Valley, Glendale, Pasadena, etc). I understand there are many Armenians who do not speak Armenian. But not that many. Besides, they may be Armenian by blood (or half, or quarter), but they may not even consider themselves Armenian. I can't imagine that there are more than 300,000 Armenians in Los Angeles (and that is being generous, I think).

 

Arpa: What's wrong with church figures, when there are no official ones? They obviously don't count only those Armenians who attend church, or pay dues -- otherwise their figure for Istanbul would be much, much lower than 60,000, don't you agree? Holy Martyrs Church in Encino estimates there are 20,000 Armenians in the San Fernando Valley. Does that church have 20,000 dues-paying members? No. Do all 20,000 give allegiance to that church (or do some go to St. Peter's)? The fact is, the Diasporan church figures are probably accurate, because the churches need accurate figures to know just what is the population that they are serving. I think that church figures probably OVERESTIMATE the real figures, because they have an interest in inflating the numbers -- the higher the number of Armenians in any given area, the more clout and power the Armenian church will have in that area.

[DominO123]

I have many problems with your numbers and the way you interprate them.

 

One example is the Los Angeles figures, we know for instance that in Canada, this was calculated according to household, and was projected from it and the projection irronically did not directly take into account the direct counting of the population, but an average per household. Now, the thing is that Canada and the US use a very similar method. So, the question is..., is this figure the Armenian household, the projection, and if it is the projection, it is based on the average person per household? I need the sampling method, because I am very skeptical there.

 

As well as among many thing, Syria..., but I will leave it at that.

 

Dave: There is absolutely no way that there are 300,000 Armenians in Syria and Lebanon. Half of the Armenians in Lebanon have left. And more than half of the Armenians in Syria have fled.

 

The 40,000 - 50,000 figure for Syria is very accurate. I have relatives there, and they tell me themselves -- "Gardzes te hay che mnatsadz Haleb..." A few years ago, the church even had a "badvo yerego" in Aleppo in honor of women who have had lots of children. I know, because my grandmother was one of the honorees. They were honoring those women to encourage young Armenian women in Aleppo today to form large families, because the population has dwindled. Aleppo can't even support a daily newspaper.

 

Lebanon is not so bad. Of course it is not the way it was before. In the 1970s, there were 21,000 children attending Armenian schools in Lebanon. Today, it is 9,000. And get this: According to the Armenian church's records, in 1997, there were 250 weddings. FORTY percent were mixed marriages. (Source: http://www.agbu.org/agbunews/display.asp?A_ID=57)

 

In addition to that AGBU article, my figures are supported by an enyclopedia published in Yerevan in 2003. It's called "Hay Spiurk," and it gives information of every Armenian community in the world, by country. I was doing research at LA's Central Library, and I came across it. While I did not copy the population figures, I do remember that the book stated Lebanon's Armenian population at 120,000 and Syria's at 40-50,000.

 

As for half a million in Los Angeles. According to the US Census, there are 138,015 Armenian language speakers in Los Angeles County (this includes Hollywood, Valley, Glendale, Pasadena, etc). I understand there are many Armenians who do not speak Armenian. But not that many. Besides, they may be Armenian by blood (or half, or quarter), but they may not even consider themselves Armenian. I can't imagine that there are more than 300,000 Armenians in Los Angeles (and that is being generous, I think).

 

Arpa: What's wrong with church figures, when there are no official ones? They obviously don't count only those Armenians who attend church, or pay dues -- otherwise their figure for Istanbul would be much, much lower than 60,000, don't you agree? Holy Martyrs Church in Encino estimates there are 20,000 Armenians in the San Fernando Valley. Does that church have 20,000 dues-paying members? No. Do all 20,000 give allegiance to that church (or do some go to St. Peter's)? The fact is, the Diasporan church figures are probably accurate, because the churches need accurate figures to know just what is the population that they are serving. I think that church figures probably OVERESTIMATE the real figures, because they have an interest in inflating the numbers -- the higher the number of Armenians in any given area, the more clout and power the Armenian church will have in that area.

[kakachik77]

there needs to be a worldwide Armenian count. Who can organize this?

 

Also in Jerusalem there are few Armenians left, they told me around 1,500 people, many have moved to Australia.

Edited January 29, 2006 by kakachik77