Ազգանուն

[Arpa]

Ազգանուն

Surname.

In fact azganun does not really mean surname. The latter can best be described as մականուն, nickname, eponym, “mak” meaning over/above, as in makeres (surface)/epi. Azganun is dynastic name or patrinym (from the father’s name).

Some Armenian surnames are patrinymic like Hakobian etc, but mist are nicknames, specially those based on occupation., like Darbinian etc.

The burning question is why most surnames end in -ian, and when did this start?

First off, it is neither -ian or -yan, it is -ean, since if we retro transliterate Hakobian it would be either Հագոբիան or Հագոբյան while we know the correct classical form is Հագոբեան, hence Hacobean. When did the -ian become so widespread? It first appeared during the 5th c, , with the likes of Mamikonean etc. Up until then, besides the fact that common people did not have dynastic surnames (similarly in other cultures as well), until then only nobility would have dynastic, I mean dynastic names such as Aamtuni, Adruni, Gnuni etc. , the -uni ending is a legacy of Urartian times. There is one other popular Armenian surname form which is more prevalent in the Siunik region, like onts, ents, ounts etc. which actualy means from (the house of).

Even though, as mentioned above the -ian appeared as far back as the 5th c. it did not really catch up until the 19th c. when people like Zmbajian changed their names to (Petros)Tourian and Chboukarian to (Daniel) Varouzhan, Demirjibash and Beshiktashli added the -ian etc., the custom did not proliferate until after the big G, mainly thanks to the missionaries who saw it fit that Armenians have -ian endings rather than be known as Topaloghlu etc.

 

Of course other European cultures use the -ian ending as in Italian, Hungarian etc. The reason why we are in the habit of looking towards the west for the source of the -ian ending.. What if we look a little closer to home? Actually, whether we realize or not a surname such as the -ian is a form of plural. Just like in the English we call people in the plural form like the Joneses and the Smiths in Armenian we do the same when we call families in the plural as Hokobenq or Hakobents tun, or if we choose to call them by the father’s trade we call them Darbinenq or Darbinents tun. This brings us closer to home as to our neighbors to the south.

 

See below. One of the plural forms of Arabic or Aramaic is -iin/ieen specially when it comes to people and ethnicities. When those neighbors referred to us as Armani in their language the nation would be Armani-een/Ermeni-in (plural). Say it out loud and hear what it sounds like. Is that how the -iin/ieen/ian began? The timing (5th c. ) seems to be coincidental too.

Is that why some Persians have the -ian ending as well, as in Ajami and Ajami-in/een?

 

http://mec.sas.upenn.edu/marhaba/plurals.htm

 

Note; below (m) stands for masculine and (f) for feminine

 

Also, those adjectives that end with -ii, formed from the names of countries, take these regular plural endings when they are used to describe people:

Sacuudii/Sacuudiyyuun or -iin = Saudi/s (m)

Sacuudiyyah/Sacuudiyyaat = Saudi/s (f)

cIraqii/cIraqiyyuun or -iin = Iraqi/s (m)

cIraqiyyah/cIraqiyyaat = Iraqi/s (f)

Lubnaanii/Lubnaaniyyuun or -iin = Lebanese (m)

Lubnaaniyyah/Lubnaaniyyaat = Lebanese (f)

Mirii/Miriyyuun or -iin = Egyptian/s (m)

Miriyyah/Miriyyaat = Egyptian/s (f)

Suudaanii/Suudaaniyyuun or -iin = Sudanese (m)

Suudaaniyyah/Suudaaniyyaat = Sudanese (f)

Amriikii/Amriikiyyuun or -iin = American/s (m)

Amriikiyyah/Amriikiyyaat = American/s (f)

Edited October 24, 2005 by Arpa

[Arpa]

Did I listen to it?

Of course I did.

Would I have listened if that Jew-Turk Eliza- house of of Elihu, Jehovah) Bayrak-kak-ian had sung it?

Could she have the decency to amend her name to Armenouhi Droshak-ian?

Wigh a name like that I will not let her in my house even if she were Maria Callas!

Wheris our pride?

Why ar e we still strutting around with turkish names, as if it were Armenian?

Of course not! Where then would her Ottoman Turkish heritage be!!!

That would mean ridding ourselves of our “benevolent “ gods like Eluhi//Elah/Allah,, Mehmet and Osman!?

What the f*** Armenian surname "Bayrak-dar-ian" is?

When?

When hell freezes over?

Mind you. According to the latest, it may not be too far.

Edited January 28, 2006 by Arpa

[vava]

Arpa - please. You are going too far - Isabel Bayrakdarian is a world class talent, AND she's proud of her Armenian heritage - declaring it to the world. So what if her name has "Turkish" etimology? It's certainly not reason enough to be-rate her in your post above. I respectfully suggest you edit your comments - as it reflects poorly upon you.

[Arpa]

Arpa - please. You are going too far - Isabel Bayrakdarian is a world class talent, AND she's proud of her Armenian heritage - declaring it to the world. So what if her name has "Turkish" etimology? It's certainly not reason enough to be-rate her in your post above. I respectfully suggest you edit your comments - as it reflects poorly upon you.

"Turkish etymology"?

Do Turks have surnames with Armenian etymology?

They would rather die than be caught with an Armenian name!!

Dear Vava,

I am sorry if I offended you.

My offense is immeasurable when I see such a beautiful person with the most beautiful talent and voice walk around with such an ugly surname.

There ought to be a law!

In 2003 I saw Hasmik Papian at the Metropolitan Opera in Aida. Not only was I exhilarated to see one of my favorite operas again, but with an Armenian Diva at that. I made sure that I had an entourage of otar opera nuts with me, and I was strutting around like a proud peacock while my otar friends were teasing me.

Would I have done it, will I do it if the diva had a name like B***-bayrak-ian?

I don’t think so.

Who is forcing her to have such an ugly surname?

If she does not have enough ethnic pride to walk around with such an ugly surname then my pride in her will be commensurate.

She is not alone.

Of course we have such so called Armenian singers with names like Kater-b***-ji-ian and Baghdad-li-ian too, as if we can’t have names like Chorebanian , Vanetsian /Sevanian and Droshakirian.

Shall we go back and rename Stepanakert Khankenti, Vanadzor Karakilisa, Yeghegnadzor Azizbekov, and… Hayastan Ermenistan? Who is forcing us to maintain such ugly Turkish names??!!

I hope she never makes the Metropolitan Opera unless she changes her name to something like Armenouhi Tigranian.**

Maybe the bayrak waving Turks of NY will be proud of her.

** Did you get it? Like Armen Tigranianin, the composer of Anush??!!

 

http://www.hasmik-papian.com/

 

Aida at the Met –

Lifetime Achievement Award of the

Licia Albanese-Puccini Foundation, New York

The return of the Armenian soprano as Aida to the New York Metropolitan Opera on October 29 ended up in a huge, personal success. Hasmik Papian who has made her debut at the Met in the same role back in 1999, was acclaimed above all for her rendition of the “Nile”-Aria; during the final curtain calls, the audience roared its approval to the singer with an ovation. Radames was sung by Salvatore Licitra, Amneris was Dolora Zajick; the conductor was James Conlon (three more performances took place on November

Edited January 29, 2006 by Arpa

[vava]

Arpa jan, while I understand your point and in many ways agree with it, the fact remains that she was born with that name. Many people feel, myself included, that a name is something you keep for life, whether you like it or not. It is part and parcel of your personal identity and heritage. That aside, if you dislike her name and wish to rant about it, that is entirely your choice - but to refer to her (and not just her name) pejoratively as you have above is quite uncalled for IMO. She is an awesome talent, and a source of pride for Armenians everywhere.

 

Regardless, if her turkified surname serves only to remind her (and those who admire her), of bitter moments of our Armenian past, then so be it.

[MosJan]

Arpa Papik jan be nice - you can post your opinion / suggestions but please don't insult one in a public forum

 

 

Vavajan - he can;t edit his posts - remember we change the edit time to 5 minutes - soo fillll free to edit them - you have my blessing

[Anoushik]

Arpa, what's wrong with you??? Why do you constantly insult people? If you are so concerned about puryifying Armenians from the Turkish influence, then why don't you do something about it? I'm sure most of us would appreciate it if you published a book listing all Armenian surnames that have Turkish origins. You can be very helpful in that way in educating the Armenian public regarding that matter. And while you're at it, also write about ethnic Armenian foods with their correct Armenian names.

 

But to arrogantly insult such a great musician and Armenian as Isabel Bayrakdarian is completely foolish of you. Just who the hell do you think you are?

[ED]

I met her personaly in Toranto and my impession is, she is a Lady with Armenian pride and dignaty

Arpa aviously you havent heard singing Komitas

may I remind you Komitas also did not speak of word in Armenian and impresed the public by singing Turkish in the bigining

[Takoush]

Arpa:

 

Although my birth name or paternal name is totally Armenian, though my married name is not. Than according to you I shouldn't have married my husband; because although they are an Armenian family; but their family name is of a Turkish name. Now what to do Arpa? How can I get out of it?

Edited January 30, 2006 by Anahid Takouhi

[Takoush]

Arpa:

 

You're not going to abdicate me from my position of Takouhi because of it; are you?

 

Now remember. My paternal and birth family name is totally Armenian.

Edited January 30, 2006 by Anahid Takouhi

[Arpa]

I'm sorry I got carried away and poured my frusration in this thread which was meant to promote our beautiful culture like Anush and not denigrate it with the ugly turkish side.

This is not the proper place to discuss such issues. Let's go to "culture/azganun".

[Arpa]

Anahid Takouhi

Today, 09:27 AM

Post #10 

 

Arpa:

 

You're not going to abdicate me from my position of Takouhi because of it; are you? Now remember. My paternal and birth family name is totally Armenian.

Of course not. Just as I will not punish us again for letting ourselves be massacred, almost annihilated in 1915. The sad part of it is that what the sword could not accomplish the pen, i.e Turkish names are.

 

 

Arpa:

 

Although my birth name or paternal name is totally Armenian, though my married name is not. Than according to you I shouldn't have married my husband; because although they are an Armenian family; but their family name is of a Turkish name. Now what to do Arpa? How can I get out of

 

It is as simple as ABC, or should I say J and L.

A purely Armenian surname like Yerevanian will be turkified when we insert that blasted L and make it Yerevan-L-ian. A purely Armenian surname like Mom-ian will become Turkiish when we insert that damn J to make it Mom-J-ian.

It is very easy.

Say if his surname is Sislian all you have to do is remove that turkifying L to make it Sis-ian. If his surname is Panjar-J-ian all you have to do is remove that J to Panjarian, as you know Panjar/banjari s an accepted Armenian word as in panjareghen/vegetable.

It is as simple as ABC, or shall I say J and L.

In doing so we will at least solve more than 50% of the problem.

And….

Please don’t tell me that those names have been with us for so many years. How many years? You mean they go back to the times of Vardan Mamikonian and Mesrop Mahtots?

[Arpa]

Arpa, what's wrong with you??? Why do you constantly insult people? If you are so concerned about puryifying Armenians from the Turkish influence, then why don't you do something about it? I'm sure most of us would appreciate it if you published a book listing all Armenian surnames that have Turkish origins. You can be very helpful in that way in educating the Armenian public regarding that matter. And while you're at it, also write about ethnic Armenian foods with their correct Armenian names.

 

But to arrogantly insult such a great musician and Armenian as Isabel Bayrakdarian is completely foolish of you. Just who the hell do you think you are?

That is exactly my point.

After pleading, begging, to please reconsider our turkish surnames. Aftre getting down on my knees, afte my pleas have gone to the trash can, perhaps now INSULTS will get our attention, and as you can see, it has. Sad to say, Sad!

Anoushik, have you read some of my posts where I suggest that we rename that stuffed eggplant "lits"and the stuffed grape leaves "terev"?

Yet, after all that some idiot went to wikipedia and posted "turkish coffee" under the subject topic of Armenian Food.

I GIVE UP!

A to Isaballe, I have the utmost admiration to her angelic voice and beautiful face, but as to her Turkish surname??

 

Vomit! Vomit! Pskhouq! Pskhouq!

 

Why can't she have a surname to fit her beautiful voice and her gorgeous face??

After all, I cannot dwell on the "Isabell" part as a person very dear to me has that same name, however, she does not have that turkish surname.

I wish Isabel were reading this and would consider to adopt a stage name of Isabel Anoushikian, how sweet and how delicious!, to supplement her sweetness. Or even Isabel Angelian/Hreshtakian.

No!, no!

Then some amateur linguist would interpret her angelic name to mean "angel/անգեղ/angegh/tgegh/տգեղ/ugly".

If we don't understand that this whole thing is about semantics, i.e words and language...and not a person's worth...

Then sign me as...

Mehmet Osmanoghlu

and wonder how come I know so much Armenian.

Edited January 31, 2006 by Arpa

[ED]

but I must say I agree with Arpa in a surname issue, especialy here is US when it takes only few hours of your time to do so

 

my mother in laws family did it changing from karabashian to Marutian,

but speaking harshly against an artists like Isabella, who had brought so much good name to Armenia is not right

I personaly met het her in toronto at the sunday mass and have a signed cd of our beutifull sharakans, Arpa have you heard her singing like Lusine ZAkarian?

[Takoush]

but I must say I agree with Arpa in a surname issue, especialy here is US when it takes only few hours of your time to do so

 

my mother in laws family did it changing from karabashian to Marutian,

but speaking harshly against an artists like Isabella, who had brought so much good name to Armenia is not right

I personaly met het her in toronto at the sunday mass and have a signed cd of our beutifull sharakans, Arpa have you heard her singing like Lusine ZAkarian?

Your in-laws seem to be different than mine Ed. My in-laws are so proud of their family name that I'm afraid it'll be practically impossible to make them change theirs. I know they'll never do it, I'm afraid.

 

Don't know what else to say for the matter, Ed.

Edited January 31, 2006 by Anahid Takouhi

[Anoushik]

That is exactly my point.

After pleading, begging, to please reconsider our turkish surnames. Aftre getting down on my knees, afte my pleas have gone to the trash can, perhaps now INSULTS will get our attention, and as you can see, it has. Sad to say, Sad!

Arpa, I'm sure a lot of Armenians are not aware that they have Turkified last names. I know that I don't know how to correctly identify the Turkified surnames. What can be done about it? Are you sure publicly cursing one of our greatest talents is the way to go about it?

Anoushik, have you read some of my posts where I suggest that we rename that stuffed eggplant "lits"and the stuffed grape leaves "terev"?

Of course I have. Hence my mention of Armenian food names in the first place.

A to Isaballe, I have the utmost admiration to her angelic voice and beautiful face, but as to her Turkish surname??

Still, that doesn't justify the kind of language you posted above regarding her.

[Anoushik]

What about the music Arpa? Why should our pop music today have such categories as Arab-Armenian, Persian-Armenian, and Turkish-Armenian music? Don't you think it's worse than the surnames? We are publicly screaming to the world that we are Muslim by hitting the volume on high while driving, listening to the "Armenian" pop. So what that Isabel's last name is Bayrakdarian? She is performing the highest form of repertoire that humanity has created, and she proudly proclaims that she is Armenian. No otar will ever question whether her last name is Turkish. But what about the rest of us? How is the world perceiving the rest of us?

[Arpa]

Ed, could you please move all posts in this thread that are not directly related to Anoush Opera.

I said this before and I'll rpeat it. I am sorry hat I led the thread astray and I also, a few posts above suggested that we move to "Culture/Azganun" if we want to talk about surnames etc. that way suggestions, corrections will not go to waste as it seems my many suggestions about the subject of surnames have gone unnoticed, perhaps hidden in irrelevent subject topics.

Could you pleae move them??

Thank you.

[Sarkis11]

Even though I am late for this discussion, I would like to add my contribution to this thread.

 

Arpa,

 

I don't know you, but having read your posts, I cannot have any sympathy for you. I don't care if you are the wife of the president or the daughter of the richest man in the world. You may be a very valuable person, but talk garbage. You have the verbal demeanor of a spoiled brat.

 

You are so unfeeling and inconsiderate! Our fellow Armenians (myself included) who bear a last name with a Turkish origin, do so only because they had to in the beginning; they were forced to. Many of them had no way of rebelling against it. They were poor and uneducated, many did not know how to read and write, many couldn't even speak Armenian, grew up in orphanages, barely escaped the massacre with whatever clothes they had on their backs, some of them not even with that, and could not go to any schools.

 

These poor people grew up fighting with the world just to stay alive. If they did know Armenian and had some idea of what name they would like to have, they did not have the luxury of hiring a lawyer to change it. They moved from one country to another without money, without a job, without knowing the languages, with huge debts for the seafare that they had to pay back with obscene interest rates, working the next ten years of their new lives just to pay that, some having to feed families and small children, going to work at 5 in the morning and coming home at 10 at night. Even if they wanted to see a lawyer to change their last names, where would you find a lawyer who has office hours between 10pm and 5am?

 

Besides, in many countries you just cannot change your name even if you want to. This is a luxury of the United States and perhaps a few other countries.

 

Let's suppose after working like slaves for twenty years they still have the will and the desire to change their names, can you fathom what that entails? After having a whole life history with one name, change all your official records, all your family's records, your children's school records, degrees in your diplomas, if you have any, registrations for work, licenses for driving, for working, CVs, the tombstones of your dead relatives, marriage licenses, the list is endless.

 

If you were lucky enough to arrive to the United States before you had all those things to worry about, and you knew the law in the US, that it allowed you to change your name, and you already had a plan for it, and you could do it for all your family, so that your brothers and sisters stayed brothers and sisters, and your parents, if alive, could stay your parents, and had the money to face all the legal consequences, then, you could have done it. But the great majority of people could not do it. They had no knowledge for it, no money, no means whatsoever.

 

Many of our last names are the way they are because that is the way the immigration officer wrote them when we came to the new country. When we moved from Greece to Argentina, my mother's name was written in such a way by the immigration officer, that no one could tell what it really was. It took my parents fifteen years of hard work to be able to gather all the supporting documents, witnesses, and money for official translators and lawyers to change that name!

 

Many of my friends arrived to new countries and ended up with different immigration officers who wrote their names any way they saw fit, with the result that brothers of the same family ended up with different last names. By the time they learned the language and earned enough money to pay a lawyer to fix it, it was too late. They already had a whole history with those names, marriage certificates, their children had school records, retirement funds, etc. It was more difficult to fix it than to continue living that way.

 

So my dear friend Arpa, the story is not as simple as you think it is, or saying it in the words of Shakespeare, (Hamlet) "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." I know, now you are going to accuse me of using an English quote rather than an Armenian one.

 

I love all my Armenian friends, whether they have Armenian names or Turkish names, and whether they can speak Armenian or not. Lots of Armenians could not speak their own language because they were punished if they did, and later had no opportunity to learn it. Armenians didn't spring out in posh neighborhoods of New Jersey or California. They come from varied origins, all of them marked by persecutions, poverty, suffering and a very uncertain future. They were not born with BMWs and Land Rovers.

 

I only hope you can see things in a different light, Arpa. You will be much happier and a better Armenian if you can love your friends in spite of their Turkish names.

 

Sarkis11

[Arpa]

Dear Sarkis, first off, WELCOME! Bari galoust qez.

Thank you for reaffirming all my points and adding to the.

You are so unfeeling and inconsiderate! Our fellow Armenians (myself included) who bear a last name with a Turkish origin, do so only because they had to in the beginning; they were forced to. Many of them had no way of rebelling against it. They were poor and uneducated, many did not know how to read and write, many couldn't even speak Armenian, grew up in orphanages, barely escaped the massacre with whatever clothes they had on their backs, some of them not even with that, and could not go to any schools.

It was some time ago, but I am sure I touched upon most of those points you bring.

“Unfeeling”? If you only knew my feeling of PAIN every time I see an Armenian witha turkish name??? To me, there is very little to feel about or to be emotional. Ye, we do feel, we still, feel our wounds. Do you know the term “tough love”? We need some of it so we can be even stronger.

We were “forced”? Who is forcing you now? Are you a native born American or a naturalized citizen. I am of the latter kind. It was a while back, but I do remember that one of the items in the application was an option to amend one’s name or choose a whole new name. That is how a polish Wallaschinsky eneded up as Wallace. We have a protective mantle of -IAN/ UNI/ ENTS/ONTS /TSI qualifiers, by which, no matter what, we can always be recognized as Armenian, even if it may be Boston-ian/Boston-tsi or Alaska-ian/Alaska-tsi. Is it more shameful to have "american" surnames then it is having turkish ones? Just lke when we go out of ways to creat new Armenian names for "hamburger" and Hot dog" while we still call our native Arenian cuisine with names like "qoqma, qaqma and qaqsturma" . When is the last time the Americans, creators of "hot dog" genicided us? I personally know several families who took advantage of the option and totally Armenian zed their surnames with little or no legal or social consequences, they amended their surnames from highly insult 5 syllable, unintelligible and unpronounceable, that had been subject to further corruption to two very simple and ARMENIAN sounding format, on the contrary they were profusely congratulated for doing so. Their friends, neighbors and family members are so appreciative and proud of them.

 

Your “poor and illiterate orphans” ,(You are so fleunet in English. Are you as fluent in Armenian, or is turkish your "mother tongue"?) Is the above a description of you? I think not. I hope not. Wake up! This is not 1895, Hamidian Massacre. Not 1909, Adana Massacre, neither it is 1915. You will note that I had already touched upon that, and the actual process of how many of today’s Turkish surnames were imposed after the Big G, as those orphans did not even know if they even had a family name. Once again, the picture you draw above is so true to life, yet it hardly describes YOU. The mere fact that you write with such impeccable English, not in turkish shows you are far from being illiterate. The fact that. The fact that you know how to get on the internet shows you are far from being unsophisticated and knowledgeable. The fact that you even own a computer and can afford to subscribe to a Internet Provider shows you are far from being “poor” and helpless.

 

I can go on and on..

 

The only thing we, you lack is a national and ethnic pride, the inability to rid ourselves from slavery, and our “ottoman paralysis”( Ask Ara B. Who still lives under the shadow of Hamid.) He will tell you all about "ottomanism"). Under another subject I wrote about the “patty Hearst Syndrome”, or better known as the “Stockholm Syndrome”. Please search an find. Maybe then we can speak from a position of strength and freedom and not “ottoman slavery”. When is the last time you saw a turk with a surnames like ”cholakh-oghlu”, “topal-oghlu” chirkin-oghlu”. If they can have national and ethnic pride, what is our problem?

As a first generation diasporan, it is still fresh in my memory how long it took us, how a painfully disciplined process it was when we had plastered al the walls with slogans like “turkeren mi khosiq, hishetseq mek million (+ ½) @. Hishum es mek our kes million@. Please everyone , do us all a favor. Stop going to April 24th commemorations with names like “turkoghlu-ian”.

We live in a relatively free world, in relatively free countries, not in the ottoman empire. Let us show the world how free we are.

As a Christian Armenian I was taught to not lie.

The next time, at a Genocide rally someone with a surname like “osmanli-oghlu-ian” gets up to the podium to tell us how bad the turks are, I will make sure to have some rotten tomatoes in my satchel.**

To me going to Genocide commemoration with a Turkish surname, would be the…

 

BIGGEST LIE OF THEM ALL.

 

** Should you take this as an insult, do you have children? I do. They are highly successful professionals and very GOOD ARMENIANS. Look up the definition of “tough love” again.

Edited August 19, 2007 by Arpa

[Էլիա]

Is «Պիլեմճեան» turkified?

[Zartonk]

Absolutely. As we've said before, any Armenian surname containing ji is a result Turkish occupational naming.

[Sarkis11]

Dear Arpa,

 

Looking back at my first posting, it seems a little too aggressive. I am glad you did not explode in anger and responded in a civilized manner. I give you a lot of credit for that.

 

However, we still disagree in a certain measure. The way I see it, those names are a part of our history, and you want to erase that part of our history. That they are a part of our history means they are a part of ourselves. Our parents went through the Great Massacre, some of them survived but many did not. And this is not just a small part of our history: it is a very essential part of it. In my case, I would not exist if that had not happened.

 

I am not trying to justify the atrocities committed by the murderers, but if the Genocide had not happened, I would have never been born, because my father would have lived all his life in an obscure village in the mountains of Western Turkey, and would have never met my mother who lived in Ada Pazar. This is not an isolated incident. Many of us have similar life stories. If this had not happened, there would be other people in the world, with other stories, other names, maybe Armenian names instead of Bajakhsezian, Karabashian, Gueuzubeuyukian, Topalian, Barmaksezian, Karageuzian, Boyadjian or Svadjian, the same way that if there had not been persecution against the Jews there would not be Goldbaums, Rosenbaums, Silversteins, etc. And those other people with other stories and other names would not be us. They would be other people. Would the world have been a better place with them instead of us? We cannot speculate. All we can say is that this is the way it is now.

 

Let me reiterate that I am not claiming the Genocide was good. Not at all. It was bad. My own paternal grandfather was shot to death by a Turkish death squadron. My maternal grandfather was almost shot by a squadron and was saved by miracle.

 

What makes us ourselves, is not only our genes, but also our life stories and our names. Like it or not, I am not an Asadourian, nor a Sevag, nor an Anmahuni; those are not my names.

 

People may change their names, but then their children will not ask, "What does our name mean, and why do we have a Turkish name?" And people would forget that there was a time when we as a people lived under Turkish domination, and that we were massacred, and many of us did not come out alive from the ordeal, and that it was a black page in the history of the world and we were the protagonists.

 

And not only we were the protagonists, but we were the victors. The Turkish could not annihilate us. They could not make us convert to Islam. They could not obliterate our language. We were the ones who were on the side of truth and justice, while the Turkish government still tries to cover up their shameful deeds. All of this is an important part of our history, an important part of who we are.

 

There are people who do not like to talk about the genocide. They say it makes them feel bad. It is difficult to get through to them, that, of course, we all feel bad, but it has to be talked about. For such cases, having a Turkish last name that will eventually force them to tell their children and grandchildren about the genocide may actually be a good thing.

 

However, if you can change your name, if you have no worries about erasing your history and forgetting the past, or if you are independently wealthy and don't have to think about all those things, go ahead and change it. I imagine some people have enough patriotism that would change their names even against all those obstacles. You may have done that. You may have changed all your school records and diplomas, all legal documents, marriage licenses, insurances, social security, curriculum vitae, professional licenses, notified all your old friends and contacts, etc. Good for you. I admire you.

 

In my case it would be too difficult. Everybody would think, "did he get into any trouble with the law?" or "did he get sued for something?" "Probably he did not pay his taxes," or "maybe he does not want to pay alimony," and who knows what else.

 

I know it sounds escapist. It sounds like a betrayal.

 

On the bright side, my oldest daughter married a guy with an Armenian last name, not Turkish, so that my grandchildren have Armenian last names. And I have no sons, only daughters, so maybe the other two also marry guys with Armenian names.

 

On the other hand, I know lots of Armenians with Armenian names who don't like Armenians and cannot speak Armenian, nor want their children to learn it, while others with Turkish names have a great love for our nation, speak and teach our language, have founded schools and churches, and give generously to all Armenian causes. Which ones are the better Armenians?

 

For the time being, I cannot think of changing my name.

 

Sorry to disappoint you (but I am always willing to read your comments).

 

Sarkis11

Edited August 24, 2007 by Sarkis11

[Arpa]

Dear Arpa,

Looking back at my first posting, it seems a little too aggressive. I am glad you did not explode in anger and responded in a civilized manner. I give you a lot of credit for that.

However, we still disagree in a certain measure. The way I see it, those names are a part of our history, and you want to erase that part of our history. That they are a part of our history means they are a part of ourselves. Our parents went through the Great Massacre, some of them survived but many did not. And this is not just a small part of our history: it is a very essential part of it. In my case, I would not exist if that had not happened.

This is the part that always cracks me up. When we talk about “history” Which history are we talking about? How short is our memory? History of the Mamikonians or that of Khorenatsi and Narekatsi?

Speaking of “history, look at the following that was posted yesterday by Johannes;

Մեծ Հայքի ազնւական տոհմեր

Ազգանուն (գավառ, աշխարհ)

Աբելունի - Աբելեան - Աբեղեան (Աբեղեանք / Աբելեանք, Այրարատ)

Աբելունի - Աբելեան այլ - Աբելեան երկրորդ

Աբիթեան

http://hyeforum.com/index.php?showtopic=16...mp;#entry210198

I am not trying to justify the atrocities committed by the murderers, but if the Genocide had not happened, I would have never been born, because my father would have lived all his life in an obscure village in the mountains of Western Turkey, and would have never met my mother who lived in Ada Pazar. This is not an isolated incident. Many of us have similar life stories. If this had not happened, there would be other people in the world,

This is really eerie. You will not believe how many times I have had that same thought that who would I be, or even would there be me had not our ancestors been uprooted from their respective villages, and those two genes had not united. Would there BE a ME? Who would that ME BE? Even though in my case they were both descendants from the same town in Kilikia.

with other stories, other names, maybe Armenian names instead of Bajakhsezian, Karabashian, Gueuzubeuyukian, Topalian, Barmaksezian, Karageuzian, Boyadjian or Svadjian, the same way that if there had not been persecution against the Jews there would not be Goldbaums, Rosenbaums, Silversteins, etc. And those other people with other stories and other names would not be us. They would be other people. Would the world have been a better place with them instead of us? We cannot speculate. All we can say is that this is the way it is now.

I don’t know all the meanings of those names about but I doubt many of them are pejorative and insulting except maybe a name like Schwartz which understandably means “black” Speaking of Isabelle B . Do you know the Opera Diva Beverly Sills that just died? Did you know that her surname was Silberstein before she changed it to Sills, whether it was to degermanize it or purely a professional decision. Why can’t Isabelle do the same, deturkify her name, adopt an Armenian sounding noble name to fit her nobility. Many professionals do. Do you know that Tony Curtis’ given name was Bernie Schwartz?

How would a poor little girl Isabelle B. even consider it if some influential and respected community leader be they clergy or laypeople take her aside and urge her to do so? Who would that be, the one time Patriarch Kazanjian, the blessed memory HH Vazgen ! Balji-ian, or Gov. Deukme-ji-ian? Or, maybe the sacristan of Ejmiatsin Abp. Bozabalian, ironically, as we are speaking of divas, did you know that his sister Louisa(rest in peace) Bozabalian was also a world renown opera singer?

Once again. Speaking of “history”. Historically speaking. Did we have names like Karabajakian or Goetuboeyukian before we were turkified? What kind of “history” are we talking about?

Let me reiterate that I am not claiming the Genocide was good. Not at all. It was bad. My own paternal grandfather was shot to death by a Turkish death squadron. My maternal grandfather was almost shot by a squadron and was saved by miracle.

What makes us ourselves, is not only our genes, but also our life stories and our names. Like it or not, I am not an Asadourian, nor a Sevag, nor an Anmahuni; those are not my names.

People may change their names, but then their children will not ask, "What does our name mean, and why do we have a Turkish name?" And people would forget that there was a time when we as a people lived under Turkish domination, and that we were massacred, and many of us did not come out alive from the ordeal, and that it was a black page in the history of the world and we were the protagonists

How did Daniel Varouzhan lose his family history when he dropped the Turkish surname of Chboukiarian? Many other examples.. Would that be a case of “do as I say, not as I do”?

And not only we were the protagonists, but we were the victors. The Turkish could not annihilate us. They could not make us convert to Islam. They could not obliterate our language. We were the ones who were on the side of truth and justice, while the Turkish government still tries to cover up their shameful deeds. All of this is an important part of our history, an important part of who we are.

Victors? I will not repeat that saying that goes “ayrats srti….”

Victors? Is that why we were reduced to homeless beggars, and we still are begging them to “please, please acknowledge…”?

There are people who do not like to talk about the genocide. They say it makes them feel bad. It is difficult to get through to them, that, of course, we all feel bad, but it has to be talked about. For such cases, having a Turkish last name that will eventually force them to tell their children and grandchildren about the genocide may actually be a good thing.

However, if you can change your name, if you have no worries about erasing your history and forgetting the past, or if you are independently wealthy and don't have to think about all those things, go ahead and change it. I imagine some people have enough patriotism that would change their names even against all those obstacles. You may have done that. You may have changed all your school records and diplomas, all legal documents, marriage licenses, insurances, social security, curriculum vitae, professional licenses, notified all your old friends and contacts, etc. Good for you. I admire you.

I am one of those who does not like to talk about the Genocide.To me, it is one of “most shameful eras of our history”. Shameful? How could we let it happen? How could we not see it coming for a whole thousand years, and prepare for it? I know. There may be thousands of excuses. Speaking of Genocide, I never spoke about it to my children, I brought them up listening to Komitas, Khachaturian and other nobles rather than show them videos of the Genocide, and now that they are well adjusted adults, thank you, we do talk about it within the context, not as a “factor of our identity” as some may want us to believe.

In my case it would be too difficult. Everybody would think, "did he get into any trouble with the law?" or "did he get sued for something?" "Probably he did not pay his taxes," or "maybe he does not want to pay alimony," and who knows what else.

I know it sounds escapist. It sounds like a betrayal.

On the bright side, my oldest daughter married a guy with an Armenian last name, not Turkish, so that my grandchildren have Armenian last names. And I have no sons, only daughters, so maybe the other two also marry guys with Armenian names.

I may be even more fortunate. Not only my surname is not Turkish, never was, my children have chosen partners of either gender with Armenian (nonTurkish) surnames as well.

Do you carry your father's family name? What happened to your mothe's maiden name?And, as to your comment about the “big headache” of legal papers, diplomas etc. How do women maintain their CV-s when they marry and adopt their husbands’ surname, when Oriord Masisian become Tikin Araratian?? Once again about it being a “big headache” how much bigger a headache it is that the Genocide?

On the other hand, I know lots of Armenians with Armenian names who don't like Armenians and cannot speak Armenian, nor want their children to learn it, while others with Turkish names have a great love for our nation, speak and teach our language, have founded schools and churches, and give generously to all Armenian causes. Which ones are the better Armenians?

For the time being, I cannot think of changing my name.

Sorry to disappoint you (but I am always willing to read your comments).

Sarkis11

“Armenians with Armenian names who don’t like Armenians”? I don’t know who you are talking about. Is it because they are sick and tired of so called “Armenians” with Turkish names who get up on the stage on April 24 and spew poison at the Turks?

Please allow me to once again invoke the “Patty Hearst/Stockholm Syndrome” Which is tantamount to saying “we call ‘father’ those who rape our mothers, Mer mayr@ brnaparogh@ mer hayrn eh?”.

Yes, I do talk about this subject with a passion, just as I have said on many occasions, I was brought up as a Christian Armenian and taught to not lie. To me having a Turkish name and speaking against the turks is the

BIGGEST LIE OF THEM ALL.

The biggest irony of them all is that the turks themselves don’t have such pejorative surnames like topal, cholakh, ghambour, since that qaqaturk dangled some of those who resisted at the nearest telephone pole.

Maybe we need a qaqaturk to hammer some sense into our heads.

Who will that qaqaturk be? Our catholicoses with names like Balji-oghlu-ian and Guleserian or our presidential contenders with names like Demirji-oghlu-ian?

Please, please everyone. As a first step let us take the least painful road. Remove those tutkifying Js and Ls from your surnames and see how dervoghormiaji-ian** (I am not kidding, this is an actual surname) and Ourfali-ian becomes Ourhayetsi (ian).

* * You think I am kdding? Among many, look here;

Advisor, Siranoush Dervogormiyaciyan

http://www.asainc.org/newjersey/executive_comitee.shtml

Edited August 25, 2007 by Arpa

[Arpa]

Is «Պիլեմճեան» turkified?

Yes, it is as turkish as can be except for that elusive -ian.

If it is "bilemji" it may may mean "knower, one who knows, maybe even a diviner a seer of ghosts. If it is "belemji" then it will mean "wrap/wrapper" as in "blanket maker".

Don't we have our language where a "knower" would be called "gitoun-ian" and a blanket maker would be known as "vermak-ian"?

Or is that "JI" ending a legacy of that marqounats-JI, genocide-JI Hamid/Ever/Talaat and other shunshanordi-JI!!!

Like Zartonk said above. Any surname that has the letters J and L are furkish. Like when an Armenian surname like Karian becomes kar-J-ian or a name like Vanetsian becomes Van-L-ian.

If there still are thoise that assume slapping that ubiquitous IAN after every trashy word makes it Armenian look at names like turkoghlu-IAN. Maybe not. But, look at this, among many, Kurdoghlian;

http://www.pbase.com/hagluc/profile

How could any one with a surname of the sort claim to be a Proud Armenian is beyond me. Do we have surnames like "hayordi-ian"

Is not "IAN" Fleming the creator of that Agent 007, James Bond?

Edited August 26, 2007 by Arpa