Dave Posted August 23, 2005 Report Share Posted August 23, 2005 http://www.zaman.com/2005/08/19/ani_b.jpg It seems to me that the ''restorations'' in the medieval Armenian capital of Ani have progressed. As you can see here, new stones (which don't even look like the original ones) constitute the majority. As if that's not enough, they have erased the Armenian character of Ani. They mention the Georgians, the Seljuks, the ''Karsaklilar'', yet there is no mention of Armenians. Try to read their distortions. Tourists in Ani Ruins Taken out of Military Zone By Murat Kaban Published: Friday, August 19, 2005 zaman.com The Turkish council of Ministers and General Staff abolished the military forbidden zone around the Ani Ruins on the Turkish-Armenian border in 2004. About 15,000 tourists visited Ani antique city within a year. Since the ruin was under the context of a first level military zone, local and foreign ministers were not allowed to visit the region without permission and identity information.The History of the Ani Antique City extends to great cultural monuments like the Abul Menucehr Mosque,the first mosque built in 1072 by (Turks) Seljuks, and Fethiye Mosque (Big Cathedral). The antique city, encompassing five kilometers of land, includes 10 churches, a palace, two mosques, a bridge and a caravansaray. The Culture and Turism Director in Kars, Kenan Bekis, said they expected about 20,000 to 30,000 tourists to visit the Ani Ruins. İndicating that the Turkish Tourism and Culture Ministry are continuing environmental plans for the ruins, Bekis said excavations that began in the beginning of July would continue until September 15. "Tourists rarely visited Ani Ruins while it was protected as a military prohibited zone because visits required many procedural documents from military authorities and the museum directorate. However, now everyone can buy tickets and visit the area. A Six-person cadre under the Turkish Finance Ministry will provide security in the Ani Ruins. Moreover, the Tourism Gendarme will determine the tourism zones to be protected. We also held a meeting with the Governor of Kars, Nevzat Turhan, at his presidency. We applied for the Gendarme’s General Commandership for Ani's security. We will also achieve security through this way. Located in Ocakli village, 42 kilometers away from Kars, is the antique city of Ani. The city was established in 5000 B.C within the Turkish boundaries on the western side of Arapcay River, which separates the Turkish-Armenian border. It was the first accommodation center along the Silk Road, and as a result today it a famous trade center. The inner fortress, which encircles the city was built by the Karsaklilar, who renamed the city as Kars in 400 (A.D.). The city of Ani hosted many societies such as the Karsaklilar, İlhanlilar, Seddatogullari, Karakoyunlular, Georgians, Harzemsahlar, and the Seljuk Empire. Some of the remains found in Ani Ruins are as follows: Menucehr Mosque: The mosque is located in the antique city, Ani. It was built by Abu Suca Manucher from the Seddatogullari in 1072 and it is known as the first mosque built by the Seljuks in Anatolia. Abul Muammeral Mosque (Boz Minaret): It is in the center of the antique city. It was built by the last Seddatli Sultan, Sahan Sah. The minaret of the destroyed mosque remains collapsed on the site. Virgin Mary Cathedral (Fethiye Mosque): The construction work of the cathedral began in 1010 in Ani city center during Sambat II.’s period. It was completed during Gagik I’s period. The cathedral was used as a mosque for some time after Alparslan’s conquest. This building is among the most well-preserved buildings in Ani. Kecel Church: It was built in 1034-1036 by the son of Abugremrizents Dakkavi, who is the grandson of Gregor. The church was repaired by pope Tridot in 1173. A bell tower was added to the main structure in 1291 and the dome was repaired in 1342. Half of the structure is still partially damaged due lightning strikes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gamavor Posted August 23, 2005 Report Share Posted August 23, 2005 Bastards! Not only the Turks of course. We may blame them for the Genocide, but we should also blame the 'Europeans' for the cultural genocide of the Armenian heritage in Turkey. That's right! The bastard Europeans that are ready to sale their mothers only to get cheaper fairs for vacation and give their precious Euros to the Turks so that they can continue with their falsifications. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted August 23, 2005 Author Report Share Posted August 23, 2005 Then why should we associate ourselves with these ''Europeans''? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Artaxias Posted August 23, 2005 Report Share Posted August 23, 2005 Then why should we associate ourselves with these ''Europeans''? style_images/master/snapback.png Because we are Europeans, in many ways we are more European than most of them, save for Greeks, Serbs and a few others. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phantom22 Posted August 23, 2005 Report Share Posted August 23, 2005 What other rational option is there but to join with Europe? Mass conversion to Islam? Turkifying ourselves to satisfy the Pan-Turanists who want to see a Turkish state from the Bosphorus to the outskirts of Beijing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phantom22 Posted August 23, 2005 Report Share Posted August 23, 2005 (edited) Dave, The restoration of the stones is slip-shod restoration, not a pre-conceived determination by the Turks to destroy the character of Ani. The British and the French have the best experts in this field. I am VERY concerned that the Armenian authorities will also botch any restorations in the ROA. As for trying to present Ani as a Turkish city, what else is new? When have the achievements of their Armenian citizens ever been recognized by the Republic of Turkey? Only the successful madam and the high government officials under the Sultans (used for propaganda purposes). The Turks conveniently forget what happened to these men and their families in 1915. I reiterate about the hysteria in Turkey when it was revealed that a loved and respected aviator, adopted by Ataturk, was an Armenian. Edited August 23, 2005 by phantom22 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arvestaked Posted August 23, 2005 Report Share Posted August 23, 2005 This crap pisses me off to no end. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Artaxias Posted August 23, 2005 Report Share Posted August 23, 2005 What other rational option is there but to join with Europe? Mass conversion to Islam? Turkifying ourselves to satisfy the Pan-Turanists who want to see a Turkish state from the Bosphorus to the outskirts of Beijing? style_images/master/snapback.png Correct. But we are re-joining Europe not joining. To conclude, we would like to emphasize that the Armenian people – both in Armenia and in the European Diaspora – regards itself as a European people. This people was separated from the main European stream by unfortunate historical circumstances and is now resolutely committing to an in-depth reunification with the European family. European Armenian Convention Declaration 19 October 2004, Brussels Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gamavor Posted August 23, 2005 Report Share Posted August 23, 2005 Turkifying ourselves to satisfy the Pan-Turanists who want to see a Turkish state from the Bosphorus to the outskirts of Beijing? If we had just a little brains we should have done so long time ago! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Artaxias Posted August 23, 2005 Report Share Posted August 23, 2005 If we had just a little brains we should have done so long time ago! style_images/master/snapback.png Где такую травку нашол? Ասա ես էլ ուռեմ: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO Posted August 23, 2005 Report Share Posted August 23, 2005 Dave, The restoration of the stones is slip-shod restoration, not a pre-conceived determination by the Turks to destroy the character of Ani. style_images/master/snapback.png When you ignore something, please don't say nonesense. The destruction by way of so-called restoration IS partly aimed to destroy the cjaracter of Ani. I say partly, because it is just recently that it is used to please the Europeans, before that, it was FULLY for that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phantom22 Posted August 23, 2005 Report Share Posted August 23, 2005 Domino, Please do not "lift" only a segment of my post and respond to it alone. I clearly stated later in the post that the Turkish government wants to minimize the prescence of Armenian culture in the historic Armenian areas. As for the botched restoration, placing miscolored stones can only be bufoonery and incompetence. Must you perceive EVERYTHING as conspiracy? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO Posted August 23, 2005 Report Share Posted August 23, 2005 (edited) As for the botched restoration, placing miscolored stones can only be bufoonery and incompetence. Must you perceive EVERYTHING as conspiracy? style_images/master/snapback.png Again, I repeat, you have no clue of what you are talking about. The restoration have entirly destroyed and "deleted" rock carvings, proper to Armenian styles. This is a CLEAR attempt, and IS premedited. This has nothing to do with different colorations, it has all to do with a destruction of handmade carving works, and their replacement by simple unstyled rocks. Armenian letters knifed, and yet we have to see if the replacement will entirly remove Armenian letters from the rock, like it has been done elsewhere in the city. The destruction of Ani was already planned for decades, and during the first years of the Turkish republic, the Turkish delegation had already threatned the allies to destroy the Armenian monuments at Ani if they do not recieve what they wanted. Their first job was to destroy entire sections, and leave them destroyed by morons and idiots... and then, when the entire section fall down, they bulldose the rest and then cover entire walls of bullshit. Edited August 23, 2005 by QueBeceR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO Posted August 23, 2005 Report Share Posted August 23, 2005 (edited) And now, they'll destroy Aghtamar. Edited August 23, 2005 by QueBeceR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gamavor Posted August 23, 2005 Report Share Posted August 23, 2005 Где такую травку нашол? Khundzory dzarin dag@! Evrobatziner@ pnav mezi martu degh chen tuner. Anong mishd irentz anznagan hashivner@ hetabuntadz yen yev bidi sharunagen aid jampov. Lav glini menk el pam@ sorving Evrobatzineren. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phantom22 Posted August 23, 2005 Report Share Posted August 23, 2005 I am sure that photos have been taken of these monuments pre-"restoration." Please show here and provide comparisons to the European authorities who are weighing Turkey's EU membership. In any case, it is very obvious that the replacement stones are not in the character of the originals. Even the desecration has been done slip-shod. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO Posted August 23, 2005 Report Share Posted August 23, 2005 I am sure that photos have been taken of these monuments pre-"restoration." Please show here and provide comparisons to the European authorities who are weighing Turkey's EU membership. In any case, it is very obvious that the replacement stones are not in the character of the originals. Even the desecration has been done slip-shod. style_images/master/snapback.png You must have been sleeping over the years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phantom22 Posted August 23, 2005 Report Share Posted August 23, 2005 I dropped out of concern for Armenian issues for 20 years except for giving to Armenian Fund Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kumkap Posted August 23, 2005 Report Share Posted August 23, 2005 (edited) Because we are Europeans, in many ways we are more European than most of them, save for Greeks, Serbs and a few others. style_images/master/snapback.png i hesitate to write this artaxias because i know you blow me out of the water in terms of knowledge of history, etc., but saying that we are european, does this mean we have more in common with say the english, the french, the swedes, than we do with a persian, a lebanese arab, or even a kurd? does this mean we can't jump, suck at basketball, play a boring, dull style of soccer that the brazilians run rings around, can't dance, play music based on nice, neat tempered scales in 4/4 time, copy other people's music (mainly blacks), and eat bland, tasteless food. greeks, bulgarians, serbs is about as far into europe as i care to liken armenians to. europe is a well-defined geographical area but "european" is too vague a concept to be meaningful. does it mean way of thinking, food, music, approach to family life, language? i see the arguments that armenians are european, but the reality is that historically armenians have born very little resemblence culturally to the people living in the territorial area known as europe. this is true today too - i do not think armenians living in syria, iran, turkey, iraq, egypt, view themselves as european either. they are not cultural hermits in their countries, living in a bubble, they are fully a part of the cultural fabric of the societies they live in. is this all because armenians in those countries have lost their european culture and become islamized? maybe. but at the same time we don't ask to what extent 70 years of soviet rule changed armenian culture. did soviet armenia preserve the anatolian armenian culture that the victims of the genocide belonged to? i find the european armenian convention declaration very bizarre. how far do you have to go back to arrive at a time when armenians were european? armenians living in the u.s., europe, and the russian empire is a recent phenomenon. for the bulk of their history, when not independent armenians lived under roman, persian, byzantine, arab, and turkish empires, all empires of the ancient and modern near eastern world. was king artaxias, living in the second century b.c., a european? what about tigran the great, was he a white european from the north conquering the middle east? well, certainly they were indo-europeans, but mesopotamian sources say that the babylonians, sumerians, traded with a "people of ararat". so did the "people of ararat" have more in common with the ancestors of anglo-saxons let's say, with whom they had no contact at all, than they did with the mesopotamians (ancestors of today's iraqis), who they traded with? so how far do you have to go back? probably by the time you get past all the periods of foreign rule you're at a time when there was nothing going on in europe! frequently it's pointed out that armenian is an indo-european language. well, so are persian, pashtun, urdu, hindi, and sanskrit. nobody is going around claiming those people are european. armenians are christian? well, christianity is not a european religion. to me, that christianity is identified with europeans is an indication that an act of cultural theft has taken place. read the bible from cover to cover and you will not encounter a single white european in the entire narrative. not a single event related in the bible takes place in europe. instead the events take place in what is now egypt, iraq, syria, jordan, israel, iran, turkey, etc. the existence of armenians is a reminder to the world of the true origins of christianity. it was middle eastern civilization that gave rise to the spread of christianity. but starting with the crusades and right up to today, western europeans (which includes americans) have shown they have a racialized understanding of christianity. otherwise they would not have slaughtered all those eastern christians. this turns christianity into something like judaism - salvation and sharing in the kingdom of god only for one ethnic or racial group. specialists of indo-european linguists who are proponents of the anatolian-farming hypothesis of indo-european origins tell us that all the european languages (with a few exceptions) descend from a single language that was spoken in anatolia thousands of years ago. this means that the languages of the people who were living in what is western europe today were gradually replaced by languages spoken by people originating from anatolia who migrated into europe. it is also thought that these anatolian migrants introduced agriculture into europe, which means that europeans were hunter-gatherers until people from the middle east introduced farming to them. to me, anatolia has much stronger historical and cultural links with mesopotamia, persia, the levant, north africa, etc. than it does with western europe. thus middle easterners in a sense gave europeans their language, agriculture, and their religion. i think that by convincing ourselves and others that we are european we are abetting this act of cultural appropriation. instead we have to reassert the early foundations of christianity and remind the "western world" of the cultural debt they owe to middle-eastern people. teach them some respect. what western europeans have done over the last 600 years, conquering and exterminating other peoples (native americans, africans, australians, the list goes on) and even laying waste to countries (iraq) that gave rise to western civilization thousands of years ago, while carrying the banner of christianity, is a disgrace to christianity as a religion. we have now the u.s., a country of european origins lead by a "born-again christian", having invaded and occupied iraq, the land of ancient mesopotamia, killing tens of thousands of people, and treating their deaths as if they were roadkill. americans think they are there to bring "civilization" to iraq, and that they need to teach middle-easterners "western values". but who are the barbarians? how can they even think that when the earliest signs of a settled human civilization comes from iraq (mesopotamia)? the earliest of examples of writing come from there. the first law code was written there. agriculture is thought to have started there. abraham was born there. today, people in positions of power (militarily, economically, culturally) are trying to create a world of black and white. but that's not the way things are in reality and this is in fact a disguised tactic of domination. take a look at this link: http://www.macfdn.org/programs/fel/fellows...roudi_maria.htm she's a greek scholar who won a macarthur genius grant recently for studying the cultural interactions between the byzantines and the arabs. this shows you that the borders between rival civilizations are very much blurred. those of us that inhabit those border areas (as armenians do) are the ones that stand the most to lose from ensconcing ourselves on one side or the other. we should do whatever we need to do to guarantee our security, but be very careful not to surrender our cultural sovereignty to something we are tricked into thinking we belong to. just as an example, integrating into european stuctures means the imposition of stronger freedom of religion laws in armenia. do we want more baptists and jehovas in our country? check out this link. the following is the mission statement of a series of musical workshops that take place every year in crete, greece. it kind of gets the point i am trying to make across, especially since armenians inhabit the world it is describing: The center of all of our efforts at the musical workshop "Labyrinth" is definitely our educational projects. It is in this context that we regularly organize seminars and master-classes under the direction of some of the finest musicians of the world. The island of Crete (our location) has been for centuries a crossroads and meeting place for cultures form all over the Mediterranean as well as from other more distant lands. Crete, of course, is not the only place where such cultural exchanges have taken place. Indeed all of the great musical traditions of the world owe their richness to the crossover of influences between all of the civilizations of history. For us a healthy future for music in general depends very heavily on the continuation of this process and not on the imposition of certain cultural forms by economically powerful nations through the medium of the entertainment industry. Many very remarkable and important musical traditions are in danger, either of being steamrolled into extinction by the political and commercial interests of the western world, or of being fossilized and stereotyped into quaint replicas reflecting another age, devoid of their creative dynamic. We firmly believe that all of the regional musical traditions of the entire world are worthy of the greatest respect and that each and every one of them deserves an equal role in a worldwide dialogue of cultures. This dialogue does not aim towards the creation of a homogenized single world culture, rather it emphasizes very heavily the maintenance and cultivation of the integrity and individuality of even the most obscure of local idioms, while simultaneously encouraging an open-minded attitude to the cultures of all other peoples. Each musical culture must be approached on its own terms within the context of its own set of values. Qualitative comparisons between different musical cultures which employ the criteria of one or the other are demonstrably futile and only lead to false assessments which hinder intercultural understanding rather than enhance it. kind of a rambling post i know but i gave you some of my ideas. Edited August 23, 2005 by kumkap Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gamavor Posted August 24, 2005 Report Share Posted August 24, 2005 I think one should make a difference between culture, politics and geography. Even if we are (Europeans that is) it is not in our best interest to behave and act as such. Armenia is not a neighbour to Swiss or Austria. Armenia is located in South Caucasus - an area which is on the verges of Aisa and Europe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phantom22 Posted August 24, 2005 Report Share Posted August 24, 2005 (edited) OK Gams, If we should not act European then what? Like our Iranian buddies? I could understand this under the Shah who was pushing the Persians toward the West. An alliance with Iran is all well and good for geo-political purposes unless Bush and his neo-con crazies invade Iran. If they reinstitute the regime of the Shah perhaps our cultures can cross-fertilate. I am fine with the alliance but I don't want to see Armenia become a proto-Islamic state. How about our Arab neighbors? Should we give lessons in Yerevan in advanced suicide bombing? How about geting some Palestinians to give lessons in culinary arts so that the whole of Armenia can get tomaine poisoning? Pakistan? Talibanians? How about beheading Armenian Loosavorchagan women who become engaged to Hye Catholics or Pochcagans, al la the Saudi Princess who was executed for getting engaged to a commoner? Far East Asia? Perhaps. The Japanese have come a long way since they were isolated from the world in the 18th century. Shanghai is becoming a world class city. Perhaps you will be comfortable if we all became Sufis and joined the Islamic world. Don't think that the Turks would welcome us with open arms. The Kurds are Moslem and that doesn't mean that there is a lovefest between them and the Turks. OK Gams, if not Europe what? A country that is Islamic in every way but the nominal religion? Edited August 24, 2005 by phantom22 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted August 24, 2005 Author Report Share Posted August 24, 2005 Ethiopia is Christian and it's doing fine in the middle of Islamic countries such as Sudan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phantom22 Posted August 24, 2005 Report Share Posted August 24, 2005 (edited) Dave, Ethiopia considers itself part of the African family of nations as opposed to a part of the Islamic world. Armenia can develop ties with the West while keeping alliances with Russia as insurance (do you remember how many times the Europeans have abandoned us after getting our assistance? - it started with the Crusades). Edited August 24, 2005 by phantom22 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted August 24, 2005 Author Report Share Posted August 24, 2005 (edited) The Crusades shows you that Europeans don't care much about Oriental christians. Armenian communities near (but outside) Giligia have often suffered alongside Muslim Arabs at the hands of Crusaders. The Crusades had quite a few ''side effects'' for Giligia... Do you remember how Germany assisted Ottoman Turkey and did nothing to stop the Armenian Genocide? Do you remember how the French gave parts of historic Cilicia to Kemalist Turkey, even after Armenians returned there to find their homes? etc... Edited August 24, 2005 by Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gamavor Posted August 24, 2005 Report Share Posted August 24, 2005 OK Gams, If we should not act European then what? Like our Iranian buddies? I could understand this under the Shah who was pushing the Persians toward the West. An alliance with Iran is all well and good for geo-political purposes unless Bush and his neo-con crazies invade Iran. If they reinstitute the regime of the Shah perhaps our cultures can cross-fertilate. I am fine with the alliance but I don't want to see Armenia become a proto-Islamic state. How about our Arab neighbors? Should we give lessons in Yerevan in advanced suicide bombing? How about geting some Palestinians to give lessons in culinary arts so that the whole of Armenia can get tomaine poisoning? Unlike you I don't see things black and white. You think that if you don't act as "European" than that means that you are "Pro-Muslim". Wrong! Bosnians, Albanians, Turks are also Europeans or at least soon to be. Are you feeling OK being in such company? Armenia should aim at being neutral country when it comes to taking sides in global conflicts. The conflict between East and West, South and North won't fade away anytime soon. Neither Europeans nor Islamic countries, not to speak about the axis of evil - USA, Turkey, Israel are (or have ever been) on our side when it comes to defending our own Armenian national interest and don't expect anybody to do so, not now, not tomorrow and not the day after tomorrow. And that is absolutely justified. Everyone should first take care of his own interests before acting on behalf of somebody else. Europeans will betray your "Christian" ass at the first sight of threat to their interests. Moslems will declare immediately jihad against you as a perennial looser. Russians will bury you once they set foot again in Trabzon, etc.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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