The Current State Of Ani

[Nakharar]

Europe is a lost cause. I don't know where you live, but take a look around in the Netherlands, France or the UK, etc. Fortress Europe is already crumbling even before its inception. Not that they don't deserve it. A mongrelized Europe is the price for previous sins committed. Let's see to it that Armenia doesn't become like that. Tant pis for our European "cousins".

[Artaxias]

Europe is a lost cause. I don't know where you live, but take a look around in the Netherlands, France or the UK, etc. Fortress Europe is already crumbling even before its inception. Not that they don't deserve it. A mongrelized Europe is the price for previous sins committed. Let's see to it that Armenia doesn't become like that. Tant pis for our European "cousins".

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No nation in Europe has ever done anything that we ourselves are not guilty of. Everyone has betrayed someone at on point or another. Concentrate on the good things that bind us together. Stop whining and drop the persecution complex.

What's happening now to Europe, the decline of Western civiliation and culture worldwide wont happen in Armenia. It's not happening in Greece either or most of Eastern Europe. They can learn a thing or two from us and they are.

[Nakharar]

I have no persecution complex. Nor do I whine. We should care less about Europe, Greece or the rest. So should you.

[Artaxias]

I have no persecution complex. Nor do I whine. We should care less about Europe, Greece or the rest. So should you.

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Ethnocentrism is good, but only healthy doses of ethnocentrism.

[kumkap]

Artaxias' idea of civilized people:

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4189154.stm

 

Last Updated: Friday, 26 August 2005, 16:20 GMT 17:20 UK

Greek outrage over drunken Brits

 

The Greek tourism minister is to hold emergency talks on the holiday island of Zakynthos on Monday amid outrage at the behaviour of British tourists.

 

Photographs in the Greek and UK press have shown young drunken Britons having sex in bars and other public places.

 

The island's MP, Dimitrios Varvarigos. has called for tourists committing acts of gross indecency to be put on trial and jailed for up to three years.

 

Those who have gone home should be sent back to Greece for trial, he says.

 

Bad reputation

 

The photos splashed across papers last week were taken in the resort of Laganas on the island's south coast, which used to be better known as a nocturnal breeding ground for loggerhead turtles.

 

 

But, over the past two years, it has become a favoured destination for British teenagers in search of sun, sand and cheap alcohol.

 

The town has seen behaviour including drunken orgies, vomiting in the streets and frequent fights. Police have closed down several of the most notorious nightclubs.

 

 

Laganas was formerly noted for its loggerhead turtles

 

Young Britons already had a bad reputation in Greece after similar behaviour in resorts on the islands of Rhodes and Crete.

 

The town's deputy mayor, Stavros Papadatos, blamed holiday reps and the Greek proprietors of hundreds of bars and clubs in Laganas for encouraging drunkenness.

 

 

"Every night each one of them must make around 1,000 euros (£700) organising pub crawls. It's on those crawls that young British girls and boys appear to lose their minds," he said, according to a report in the Guardian.

 

Of the tourists shown in the papers committing indecent acts, Mr Varvarigos said: "We're talking about a lot of people.

 

"As many as possible should be located, extradited if need be, and made to bear the consequences," he insisted.

 

"Under Greek law that might mean prison sentences of two or three years."

 

--

 

Meanwhile in Greece, a revival is taking place but it's not the kind Artaxias will like very much. In fact, he hates this. The Greek Ministry of Culture establishes the Medimuses project, whose mission statement is:

 

Due to its turbulent history, the latest wars and politico-economic and social changes in the Eastern Mediterranean, it is rather difficult to perceive musical unity as an important factor of cultural and social coherence. However, in the Eastern Mediterranean a common musical heritage, with multinational and everlasting elements, does indeed exist.

 

It roots can be traced to antiquity. Different nationalities and civilizations have been politically and culturally united for many centuries within great empires, such as the Roman, with its center first at Rome and then at Constantinople (Byzantium), the Ottoman, the Persian Sassanid domain and the Caliphate of Baghdad, which played a dominant role for over two thousand years after Alexander the Great’s expedition. Despite wars, discord and circumstantial enmities, a free flowing and perpetual movement, along with exchanges and cross-cultural influences in customs and musical idioms existed. In local folklores a tenacious adherence to tradition prevailed, whereas great urban centers functioned like cultural crucibles (as they do nowadays), despite the partial differentiations in national musical traditions. In this way, we share common rhythmic forms, musical instruments and musical themes. But most of all, we share a common modal framework with specific modes that constitute the foundation of Eastern music, known as MAQAM in the Arabian world and Turkey, DASTGIAH in Persia and EKHOS in Byzantine music.

 

Following the formation of the independent national and ethnic states and the rise of the nationalism by the mid of the 19th and the beginning of the 20th century, the traditional links and the established lines of communication were lost. As a result, populations had to experience a new reality, characterized by isolation, and the sense of their common roots was also lost. At the same time, preconceptions were reinforced and each nationality tried to obtain its own share from the common heritage at the same time claiming the copyright.  Therefore, apart from other fields of disagreement (political, economic, etc), even cultural heritage, music specifically, lead to contrasts and conflicts. The consciousness of a common heritage had been lost.  Moreover, during the recent decades the area had to face the invasion of cultural elements, both unfamiliar and incompatible with tradition and the local aesthetic. Those elements through the commercialization of the cultural product, with a direct impact on musical education, distort the intellectual style of the region.

 

MediMuses integrates the need to stop this process and curb its consequences, notably the tendency to disregard this common heritage, through the promotion of a shared tradition and the elements of popular musical creation.

 

The project has a convenient structure for enabling the target groups to understand the multinational character of this music, its internal relevance and its deep organic and dialectic relation with the local traditions, as well as the interactivity of the learned and popular ones. This understanding of traditional music will be promoted through contacts, concerts, books, CDs, master classes, visits to various regions of Mediterranean, etc. Besides the purely scientific activities there are concerts, discs productions, and publications of books that address the layman. The project with its numerous activities will offer millions of people of the Mediterranean with their own popular traditions many opportunities for contact and will bring out the elements that they have in common with other peoples. 

 

--

 

All i can say is, don't expect me to cry when we find out that Artaxias has been bludgeoned to death by the skinhead mob in Moscow he is trying to convince he deserves to belong to.

 

Artaxias: See, i am one of you! Please accept me, I am your long lost white brother. See my bleached blond hair? And see, i just got my nose done so it's turned up like yours!

 

skinhead: Then why do you still look just like a Chechen, Dagestani, Azeri, Turk?

 

Artaxias: Because I used to be white thousands of years ago just like you but the Arabs came and turned me into the miserable swarthy wretch that i am.

 

skinhead: Sure, and thousands of years ago I used to be a black african too. Russia for Russians only. Die filthy rag. [repeated stabbings followed by bleeding to death].

Edited August 26, 2005 by kumkap

[skhara]

LOL!

 

So lets review:

 

black Britney Spears, hamburgers and hotdogs, british perverts in Greece, and Russian skinheads. I'm confused, what do we have when we put it all together?

 

kumkamp just out of curiousity what color do you pick for yourself out of the ones below:

 

a) yellow

red

c) white

d) black

e) brown

[Dave]

Look at the amount of Latin in Russian and English.

 

Russian and English were formed hundreds of years ago. Latin was borrowed during its' formation. Today, the Armenian language isn't in its' ''formation stage'', so it doesn't need to borrow foreign elements (be it Farsi or Arabic or French).

 

There was no so called genocide of algerians.

What exactly is our cause?

 

For example, when you say that Armenians should get Western Armenia back, a foreigner could easily say ''then why don't we give America back to the natives?'', etc.

 

Another example: when the French foreign minister asked Turkey to recognize the Armenian Genocide, Turkish/Muslim columnists were criticizing France for condemning the Armenian genocide, and not recognizing the Algerian genocide it committed...

 

We have done some nasty things to them in the past as well.

 

''To them'', as in, to Catholic Crusaders? We gave them our support during the Crusades, but when the last Armenian King from the Lusignan family went to Europe and asked for another crusade agaisnt the Mameluke conquerors of Lesser Armenia, Europe didn't help. A Crusade for Lesser Armenia would have been a much easier task for the Europeans, because of a guaranteed support from native Armenians.

 

Blame Armenians, not Romans who were mostly Armenians anyway.

 

The Byzantine empire was mostly dominated by Greeks and Hellenized natives from Asia Minor and South-Eastern Europe.

[skhara]

skinhead: Sure, and thousands of years ago I used to be a black african too. Russia for Russians only.

 

Chechnya and Dagestan are part of the Russian Federation.

 

We have done some nasty things to them in the past as well.

 

I'd like to hear some examples. You were replying to the sacking of Constantinople right? I don't know what was so complicated about the simple greed and envy.

Edited August 27, 2005 by skhara

[Artaxias]

ankap, you should have raised the white flag and surrendered sooner. Perhaps we would still be talking about Ani.

 

Artaxias' idea of civilized people:

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4189154.stm

 

Classical example of an inductive fallacy.

a. The sample is too small to support a generalization. Without getting into probability theories, one relying on common sense can surely see how ridiculous this is.

b. Drunken teenagers on a Greek island are relevantly different from the

British population as a whole. If the example provided is different; therefore, the conclusion is different also.

 

Meanwhile in Greece, a revival is taking place but it's not the kind Artaxias will like very much.  In fact, he hates this.  The Greek Ministry of Culture establishes the Medimuses project, whose mission statement is:

 

It's interesting to note that this multicultist program has received so little attention or public support that one is unable to locate any recent media coverage. You know very well what the average Hellene would say regarding this hogwash.

 

All i can say is, don't expect me to cry when we find out that Artaxias has been bludgeoned to death by the skinhead mob in Moscow he is trying to convince he deserves to belong to.

 

Ladies and gentlemen, I present you with the fallacy of distraction.

a. I never talked about skinheads, although in my younger years I was associated with some and I do know several in Russia who are older now though

b. I'm a redhead, why should I bleach my hair, my nose altough quite prominent is perfectly shaped. You know I also take long walks on a beach, listen to Verdi and smoke cigars.

c. Chechens and Dagestanis on average are biologically very Europoid and have an exteremly high rate of blondism, more than Southern Slavs. Socio-economical and political problems of Russia will not help you as that's completely irrelevant for any topic in this thread so far.

d. I already know that you are a miserable, swarthy, bitter fool.

 

The final event in your amusing cry for dignity need not occur as a consequence of all the above.

 

Now ankap, kneel before me and run away.

Edited August 27, 2005 by Artaxias

[Artaxias]

Russian and English were formed hundreds of years ago. Latin was borrowed during its' formation. Today, the Armenian language isn't in its' ''formation stage'', so it doesn't need to borrow foreign elements (be it Farsi or Arabic or French).

 

A language is a living object. It always evolves. Loan words from the greater family=evolution. Loanwords from foreign families=devolution.

 

For example, when you say that Armenians should get Western Armenia back, a foreigner could easily say ''then why don't we give America back to the natives?'', etc.

 

When did the natives have America? The so called natives were migrants from Asia. They were part of the fauna and flora along with other mammals. Nobody took anything away from them, there were no states, flags or armies.

Also look up Kennewick Man.

 

Another example: when the French foreign minister asked Turkey to recognize the Armenian Genocide, Turkish/Muslim columnists were criticizing France for condemning the Armenian genocide, and not recognizing the Algerian genocide it committed...

 

Wait you believe there is a similarity between the first and only Holocaust and what turdish pundits threw at the French government?

 

''To them'', as in, to Catholic Crusaders? We gave them our support during the Crusades, but when the last Armenian King from the Lusignan family went to Europe and asked for another crusade agaisnt the Mameluke conquerors of Lesser Armenia, Europe didn't help. A Crusade for Lesser Armenia would have been a much easier task for the Europeans, because of a guaranteed support from native Armenians.

 

As part of my quest to educate you I will kindly refer you to the The Hundred Years' War. Gevork from Armenian Highland has a good commentary on that, look it up. It's also very interesting that inferior cultures are always able to penetrate and take over whenever the superior cultures are warring.

We helped them, they helped us. We screwed them, they screwed us. That's normal. One of the Crusader principalities (Antioch) was a vassal state of Armenia throughout its existence.

 

The Byzantine empire was mostly dominated by Greeks and Hellenized natives from Asia Minor and South-Eastern Europe.

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Sigh, such ignorance.

Greeks did not exist. There were no such people that called themselves Greeks!

The Eastern Roman Empire was Hellenized by the son of the Armenian Patrician and Exarch of North Africa, Heraclius. Greek was the lingua franca like English today, so it was easier to use Greek than Latin when not many people spoke Latin. Even less knew Armenian. Greeks as we know them today came to be after the break up of the Latin states, and even then most of their nobility traced their roots to Mamikonians, Arsacids, Kamsarakans etc.

 

Read: http://www.ancientworlds.net/aw/Thread/31378

http://www.ancientworlds.net/aw/Thread/34087

 

Peter Charanis calls the Eastern Roman Empire the Greco-Armenian Empire.

"Greco" because, as always, their civilization was Greek, "Armenian" because most of the people who directed the empire's destiny and provided most of the forces to defend it were either Armenians or men of Armenian origin". (The Armenians in the Byzantine Empire, p. 57).

 

As always all citizens were Roman, some of Greek origin, some of Armenian others were just long lost assimilated tribes. Unlike Greeks, not all Armenians were Roman. There were Armenians who were just Armenians. Mostly in the East and mostly professing the non-Chalcedonian faith.

Edited August 27, 2005 by Artaxias

[Dave]

A language is a living object. It always evolves. Loan words from the greater family=evolution. Loanwords from foreign families=devolution.

 

Then why would we want to loan from another language if that word exists in Armenian, or if we can probably form a synonymous word anyway? This does not count the more scientific and technical words, of course...

 

When did the natives have America? The so called natives were migrants from Asia. They were part of the fauna and flora along with other mammals. Nobody took anything away from them, there were no states, flags or armies.

 

It is generally accepted that migrants from Asia reached America way before the Europeans or Caucasoids. Anyway, I'm not here to defend the natives.

 

Wait you believe there is a similarity between the first and only Holocaust and what turdish pundits threw at the French government?

 

I was just trying to say that certain people use similar arguments against those who say Western Armenia should be returned to us Armenians.

 

Greeks did not exist. There were no such people that called themselves Greeks!

 

OK, Hellenes. What's the difference.

 

Sigh, such ignorance.

Greeks did not exist. There were no such people that called themselves Greeks!

The Eastern Roman Empire was Hellenized by the son of the Armenian Patrician and Exarch of North Africa, Heraclius. Greek was the lingua franca like English today, so it was easier to use Greek than Latin when not many people spoke Latin. Even less knew Armenian. Greeks as we know them today came to be after the break up of the Latin states, and even then most of their nobility traced their roots to Mamikonians, Arsacids, Kamsarakans etc.

 

Nationalism was created much later - during the 18th or 19th century. This means that the Anatolian natives of the Byz. empire didn't really care about the language their ancestors used to talk, or their origins, so they spoke Greek. Thus, you can't consider it a multi-ethnic empire.

 

For example, why do you think the so-called Macedonian dynasty was called according to the Byzantine province in which it originated, and not according to the ethnic origin of the Armenian prince who started that dynasty?

Edited August 28, 2005 by Dave

[Yervant1]

13:09 27/01/2014 » SOCIETY

The Atlantic: The Ancient Ghost City of Ani

The Atlantic has published an article about the city of Ani and photos of the city.
Situated on the eastern border of Turkey, across the Akhurian River from Armenia, lies the empty, crumbling site of the once-great metropolis of Ani, known as "the city of a thousand and one churches".
Founded more than 1,600 years ago, Ani was situated on several trade routes, and grew to become a walled city of more than 100,000 residents by the 11th century. In the centuries that followed, Ani and the surrounding region were conquered hundreds of times -- Byzantine emperors, Ottoman Turks, Armenians, nomadic Kurds, Georgians, and Russians claimed and reclaimed the area, repeatedly attacking and chasing out residents.
By the 1300s, Ani was in steep decline, and it was completely abandoned by the 1700s. Rediscovered and romanticized in the 19th century, the city had a brief moment of fame, only to be closed off by World War I and the later events of the Armenian Genocide that left the region an empty, militarized no-man's land. The ruins crumbled at the hands of many: looters, vandals, Turks who tried to eliminate Armenian history from the area, clumsy archaeological digs, well-intentioned people who made poor attempts at restoration, and Mother Nature herself. Restrictions on travel to Ani have eased in the past decade, allowing the following photos to be taken. [27 photos]

[Yervant1]

http://cdn.theatlantic.com/static/infocus/ani012414/s_a01_20110419.jpg

[Yervant1]

http://cdn.theatlantic.com/static/infocus/ani012414/s_a02_10110419.jpg

[Yervant1]

http://cdn.theatlantic.com/static/infocus/ani012414/s_a03_23036580.jpg

[Yervant1]

http://cdn.theatlantic.com/static/infocus/ani012414/s_a06_00000001.jpg