The Current State Of Ani

[Arpa]

This crap pisses me off to no end.

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As the conventional wisdom says;

If you want it done right then do it yourself.

We did.

Look at the church in Shushi, the before and the after, look at it now and when it was in disrepair and was being used as an ammunition dump, not to mention a cattle barn.

 

http://nkr.am/eng/history/shushi.htm

[Artaxias]

Kumkap please use capitalization. Reading your post was very frustrating in its state.

 

i hesitate to write this artaxias because i know you blow me out of the water in terms of knowledge of history, etc., but saying that we are european, does this mean we have more in common with say the english, the french, the swedes, than we do with a persian, a lebanese arab, or even a kurd?

 

Yes.

 

does this mean we can't jump, suck at basketball, play a boring, dull style of soccer that the brazilians run rings around, can't dance, play music based on nice, neat tempered scales in 4/4 time,

 

What kind of degenerate nonsense is this?

 

copy other people's music (mainly blacks),

 

What's black music? Blues ? lol

The instruments were invented by us and so was the music. Earliest forms of such music came from Celtic lands.

 

and eat bland, tasteless food.

 

No food on earth can compete with European cuisine. None.

 

greeks, bulgarians, serbs is about as far into europe as i care to liken armenians to.

 

Fine. What do I care?

 

europe is a well-defined geographical area but "european" is too vague a concept to be meaningful.

 

It's not well defined.

 

does it mean way of thinking, food, music, approach to family life, language?

 

All of the above, including race and religion. Race comes first, followed by culture. Both are required. IE: Albanians, Turks, Azeris and Bosniaks are not European neither are Saamis for the most part. On the other hand, the Maltese who speak a guttural filthy semitic tongue are perfectly European as far as i'm concerned as they are loyal and have preserved all their values, in their case the language is irrelevant.

 

i see the arguments that armenians are european,

 

Only fools argue about facts.

 

but the reality is that historically armenians have born very little resemblence culturally to the people living in the territorial area known as europe.

 

Which "Armenians" are those? The ones from the 5th dimension?

 

this is true today too - i do not think armenians living in syria, iran, turkey, iraq, egypt, view themselves as european either.

 

I couldn't care less. If all of them were erased today I wouldn't lose any sleep. Products of rape, I treat them the same way I treat the turkified population of Anatolia.

Luckily this doesn't aplly to all of them. I'd say 1 out 5 can be salvaged.

 

 

they are not cultural hermits in their countries, living in a bubble, they are fully a part of the cultural fabric of the societies they live in.

 

Therefore not Armenian.

 

is this all because armenians in those countries have lost their european culture and become islamized? maybe.

 

Yes.

 

but at the same time we don't ask to what extent 70 years of soviet rule changed armenian culture.

 

I was expecting this.

It didn't change it. It upgraded it, while the rest of you remained in the past centuries.

 

did soviet armenia preserve the anatolian armenian culture that the victims of the genocide belonged to?

 

Yes.

 

i find the european armenian convention declaration very bizarre. how far do you have to go back to arrive at a time when armenians were european?

 

When Cilicia fell. First Republic and Soviet reforms were good but more needs to be done to erase several centuries of filth. It's not easy to raise a Phoenix from its ashes. Perhaps a civil war or two...

 

armenians living in the u.s., europe, and the russian empire is a recent phenomenon. for the bulk of their history, when not independent armenians lived under roman, persian, byzantine, arab, and turkish empires, all empires of the ancient and modern near eastern world.

 

Did Greeks cease to be European under barbarian occupation?

Were the Spaniards dune coons in the dark ages?

 

was king artaxias, living in the second century b.c., a european?

 

Absolutely.

 

what about tigran the great, was he a white european from the north conquering the middle east?

 

Sure he was.

 

well, certainly they were indo-europeans, but mesopotamian sources say that the babylonians, sumerians, traded with a "people of ararat".

 

They do not say that/ They say Aratta, Aratta is NOT Ararat. We don't know where is Ararat. Currents best guess is either Bahrain or the territory of Elam, Jiroft.

 

so did the "people of ararat" have more in common with the ancestors of anglo-saxons let's say, with whom they had no contact at all, than they did with the mesopotamians (ancestors of today's iraqis), who they traded with?

 

I will go ahead and assume you're talking about Biainili now.

1)The ancestors of Angles and Saxons settled in Europe after the retreat of the glaciers, at the end of the last ice age. We call them Upper Paleolithic, or UP peoples. Divived by Borreby and Brünn types. After IE settlements brought other types like Hallstatt the blend is what we have now( Trønder, Fälish etc.) in Northern Europe, well Eurasia back then.

 

2) Our ancestors are IE's and pre-IE's. Just like those of Greeks, Romans, Celts etc. It's just that our pre-IE's were civilized Minoans, Pelasgians, Hurrians, Etruscans, Iberians (not the Ibero-Celts) etc. All of whom showed both racial and cultural continuity.

 

3) Mesopotamians influenced us, true but they were influenced by the same pre-IE's such as Sumerians, Hurrians, Elamites etc. And we influenced them again, Phillistines (Achaeans), Luwians etc. A large number of IE words in old semitic tongues attest this.

 

so how far do you have to go back? probably by the time you get past all the periods of foreign rule you're at a time when there was nothing going on in europe!

 

There is no such time.

 

frequently it's pointed out that armenian is an indo-european language. well, so are persian, pashtun, urdu, hindi, and sanskrit. nobody is going around claiming those people are european.

 

Nope. But Ossetians who are also Indo-Aryan are perfectly European.

 

armenians are christian? well, christianity is not a european religion.

 

Irrelevant. European Christendom.

Again, a pagan or atheists fingernail means more than all of Ethiopia or Columbia.

 

to me, that christianity is identified with europeans is an indication that an act of cultural theft has taken place.

 

Wrong again. European Christendom has been IE and European from day uno.

Christianity in essence is the evolution of our ancient beliefs (trinity).

 

read the bible from cover to cover and you will not encounter a single white european in the entire narrative.

 

The old testament is irrelevant.

 

not a single event related in the bible takes place in europe. instead the events take place in what is now egypt, iraq, syria, jordan, israel, iran, turkey, etc.

 

All those lands where essentialy ours before the cave dwelling arabs invaded.

 

the existence of armenians is a reminder to the world of the true origins of christianity. it was middle eastern civilization that gave rise to the spread of christianity.

 

Wrong. Hellenistic civilization gave rise to Christianity!

 

but starting with the crusades and right up to today, western europeans (which includes americans) have shown they have a racialized understanding of christianity. otherwise they would not have slaughtered all those eastern christians. this turns christianity into something like judaism - salvation and sharing in the kingdom of god only for one ethnic or racial group.

 

That's great. Religion must serve race and nation, not the other way around.

 

specialists of indo-european linguists who are proponents of the anatolian-farming hypothesis of indo-european origins tell us that all the european languages (with a few exceptions) descend from a single language that was spoken in anatolia thousands of years ago. this means that the languages of the people who were living in what is western europe today were gradually replaced by languages spoken by people originating from anatolia who migrated into europe. it is also thought that these anatolian migrants introduced agriculture into europe, which means that europeans were hunter-gatherers until people from the middle east introduced farming to them. to me, anatolia has much stronger historical and cultural links with mesopotamia, persia, the levant, north africa, etc. than it does with western europe. thus middle easterners in a sense gave europeans their language, agriculture, and their religion.

 

1)Anatolia is not in the middle east.

2)Anatolians had connection with South Western and Eastern Europe but none with so called Middle Easterners.

Middle Easterners never gave anything to anyone. The pre-IE peoples were essentialy of the same stock both in Europe and Eurasia. The semitic savages chnaged that, turkic savages chnaged it even more.

 

i think that by convincing ourselves and others that we are european we are abetting this act of cultural appropriation.

 

Who are these ourselves? We don't want you if you need convincing.

 

instead we have to reassert the early foundations of christianity and remind the "western world" of the cultural debt they owe to middle-eastern people.

 

They owe everything to us, since they stole it from us.

 

teach them some respect. what western europeans have done over the last 600 years, conquering and exterminating other peoples (native americans, africans, australians, the list goes on)

 

I suppose your savage semitic and turkic brethren weren't exterminating us before that. What goes aorund comes around. Evrything you have around you you owe it to us.

 

and even laying waste to countries (iraq) that gave rise to western civilization thousands of years ago, while carrying the banner of christianity, is a disgrace to christianity as a religion.

 

Iraq is an aritfical state that shouldn't even exist. Its people are mongrelized savages worth nothing.

 

we have now the u.s., a country of european origins lead by a "born-again christian", having invaded and occupied iraq, the land of ancient mesopotamia, killing tens of thousands of people, and treating their deaths as if they were roadkill.

 

Well they are roadkill.

But that's not the point, America is currently a tool like a fork or an axe, and we're not the ones wielding it for a several decades now.

 

americans think they are there to bring "civilization" to iraq, and that they need to teach middle-easterners "western values".

 

America has been hijacked long ago.

 

how can they even think that when the earliest signs of a settled human civilization comes from iraq (mesopotamia)?

 

That's hogwash.

 

the earliest of examples of writing come from there. the first law code was written there. agriculture is thought to have started there.

 

Hamurrabi? Fine, I'll give you that. Cuneiform too. But those people have nothing to do modern middle eastern savages.

 

abraham was born there.

 

hahhaha

 

she's a greek scholar who won a macarthur genius grant recently for studying the cultural interactions between the byzantines and the arabs. this shows you that the borders between rival civilizations are very much blurred. those of us that inhabit those border areas (as armenians do) are the ones that stand the most to lose from ensconcing ourselves on one side or the other. we should do whatever we need to do to guarantee our security, but be very careful not to surrender our cultural sovereignty to something we are tricked into thinking we belong to.

 

Sounds like jewspeak.

 

just as an example, integrating into european stuctures means the imposition of stronger freedom of religion laws in armenia. do we want more baptists and jehovas in our country?

 

We are stronger than that, Greeks haven't allowed it neither shall we.

 

In conclusion, if you're not European you're not Armenian. Likewise if you're a negro lutheran that speaks German you're not a German. Don't be bitter, this is only natural and there is no escape from it. What's happening now in Armenian society should have happened a century ago or even before like with Hellas but alas there was communism, Genocide etc.

[DominO]

Yawn...

[Nakharar]

And now, they'll destroy Aghtamar. 

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Again, I repeat, you have no clue of what you are talking about. The restoration have entirly destroyed and "deleted" rock carvings, proper to Armenian styles. This is a CLEAR attempt, and IS premedited. This has nothing to do with different colorations, it has all to do with a destruction of handmade carving works, and their replacement by simple unstyled rocks. Armenian letters knifed, and yet we have to see if the replacement will entirly remove Armenian letters from the rock, like it has been done elsewhere in the city.

 

The destruction of Ani was already planned for decades, and during the first years of the Turkish republic, the Turkish delegation had already threatned the allies to destroy the Armenian monuments at Ani if they do not recieve what they wanted.

 

Their first job was to destroy entire sections, and leave them destroyed by morons and idiots... and then, when the entire section fall down, they bulldose the rest and then cover entire walls of bullshit.

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The bad thing about Ani and Akhtamar is that it deflects all attention from the rest of the Armenian monuments left in Turkey. Not that there are hardly any left now. The irony is that the two most symbolic Armenian architectural treasures have become a farce itself and are used as a ploy to hide the complete destruction of Armenian monuments.

[kumkap]

What's black music? Blues ? lol

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black music is what britney spears, justin timberlake, christina aguilera and all those other spoiled white kids make their riches off of. they're just very good at copying.

The instruments were invented by us and so was the music. Earliest forms of such music came from Celtic lands.

i suppose the first humans appeared in ireland as well.

No food on earth can compete with European cuisine. None.

sure. that's why there's an indian restaurant on every corner in britain. you enjoy your hamburgers and hot dogs and i'll stick to the food my anatolian grandmother makes.

All of the above, including race and religion. Race comes first, followed by culture. Both are required. IE: Albanians, Turks, Azeris and Bosniaks are not European neither are Saamis for the most part. On the other hand, the Maltese who speak a guttural filthy semitic tongue are perfectly European as far as i'm concerned as they are loyal and have preserved all their values, in their case the language is irrelevant.

the maltese language is filthy because it's semitic or because it's guttural? armenian sounds guttural to most english speakers. i've heard some people say it sounds like arabic or persian.

Which "Armenians" are those? The ones from the 5th dimension?

the ones that still speak armenian unlike their distant cousins here in america who have rejoined their long lost european brothers.

I couldn't care less. If all of them [armenians living in the middle east] were erased today I wouldn't lose any sleep. Products of rape, I treat them the same way I treat the turkified population of Anatolia.  Luckily this doesn't aplly to all of them. I'd say 1 out 5 can be salvaged.  Therefore not Armenian.

so what you're really saying is that the genocide was actually a good thing! it got rid of all the impurities in the nordic gene pool of armenians.

It didn't change it. It upgraded it, while the rest of you remained in the past centuries.

now that's a good one. it upgraded it to such an extent that everyone who could leave after '91 became credit card fraudsters, gangbangers driving their fancy cars around their ghetto neighborhoods, and arms smugglers boasting of ties to al qaeda who made neat work destroying the excellent reputation armenian genocide survivors (mostly western armenians) and their progeny built up for all of us in places like boston, detroit, wisconsin, fresno, in the 90 or so years since they first came here.

When Cilicia fell. First Republic and Soviet reforms were good but more needs to be done to erase several centuries of filth. It's not easy to raise a Phoenix from its ashes. Perhaps a civil war or two...

cilician armenians during this period were far closer culturally to greeks, syriacs, copts, etc. (all of whom lived in or contiguous to the islamic world) than they were to western europeans. otherwise why would the crusaders have slaughtered so many eastern christians? it's a serious question, why would christians speaking an indo-european language in constantinople be slaughtered by christians from western europe along their journey to liberate the holy land from the muslims?

Did Greeks cease to be European under barbarian occupation?

Were the Spaniards dune coons in the dark ages?

the barbarian occupation you are talking about was a central asian one, not a middle eastern one. the dark ages in spain was the period before the muslims arrived. spain's most enlightened period intellectually and culturally was under the moors. it was never the same after the christians reconquered it.

They do not say that/ They say Aratta, Aratta is NOT Ararat. We don't know where is Ararat. Currents best guess is either Bahrain or the territory of Elam, Jiroft.

the evidence suggests that the people living around mt. ararat traded with the mesopotamians. for example the mesopotamians traded with them for wine.

Edited August 24, 2005 by kumkap

[kumkap]

I will go ahead and assume you're talking about Biainili now.

1)The ancestors of Angles and Saxons settled in Europe after the retreat of the glaciers, at the end of the last ice age. We call them Upper Paleolithic, or UP peoples. Divived by Borreby and Brünn types. After IE settlements brought other types like Hallstatt the blend is what we have now( Trønder, Fälish etc.) in Northern Europe, well Eurasia back then.

 

2) Our ancestors are IE's and pre-IE's.  Just like those of Greeks, Romans, Celts etc. It's just that our pre-IE's were civilized Minoans, Pelasgians, Hurrians, Etruscans, Iberians (not the Ibero-Celts) etc. All of whom showed both racial and cultural continuity.

 

3) Mesopotamians influenced us, true but they were influenced by the same pre-IE's such as Sumerians, Hurrians, Elamites etc. And we influenced them again, Phillistines (Achaeans), Luwians etc. A large number of IE words in old semitic tongues attest this.

There is no such time.

Nope. But Ossetians who are also Indo-Aryan are perfectly European.

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still not sure why ossetians are european but persian and indic peoples are not.

Wrong again. European Christendom has been IE and European from day uno.  Christianity in essence is the evolution of our ancient beliefs (trinity).

The old testament is irrelevant.

yes and i have been myself from day one too. we'll pretend that syriac/aramaic wasn't important to the spread of christianity, especially the armenian kind.

All those lands where essentialy ours before the cave dwelling arabs invaded.

your concept of "ours" is a total figment of your imagination. greek is indo-european, syriac is semitic. was there an enormous civilizational divide between those people at the time of jesus, or even later on when the arabs came on the scene between the byzantines and the arabs? nobody was even aware of the existence of an indo-european language family until early last century, let alone the ancient mediterranean world. back then a foreign language was a foreign language, nobody thought about whether it was indo-european or not. arabs interacted with greeks (who interacted with egyptians who interacted with mesopotamians) who interacted with persians who interacted with indians who interacted with chinese etc. etc.

Wrong. Hellenistic civilization gave rise to Christianity!

and i suppose hellenistic civilization dropped out of the sky. god sent the indo-european man down to earth to bring learning and enlightenment to the world.

That's great.  Religion must serve race and nation, not the other way around.

you don't seem to be able to grasp the most basic principle of christianity: it is a universalist religion, which is why it has spread so widely and why the jews hate christians so much. it destroys their monopoly on chosenness. if it only was meant for one race of people, it would cease to be christianity.

1)Anatolia is not in the middle east.

therefore, it is in europe? ah, so you support turkish entry into the e.u.

2)Anatolians had connection with South Western and Eastern Europe but none with so called Middle Easterners.

Middle Easterners never gave anything to anyone.

never say never. what your post shows is that you seem to know a lot about indo-european origins/history but are completely ignorant about other civilizations. and what you are ignorant about you think does not exist.

The pre-IE peoples were essentialy of the same stock both in Europe and Eurasia.

probably true but that's meaningless today. we're not going to travel back in time by creating a single culture among all of today's i.e. speakers. even the turks couldn't do that with their central asian brethren, as much as they tried, after the fall of the soviet union.

Who are these ourselves? We don't want you if you need convincing.

so who's we? did you appoint yourself spokesperson for the armenian culture police?

I suppose your savage semitic and turkic brethren weren't exterminating us before that. What goes aorund comes around. Evrything you have around you you owe it to us.

no quibble from me on your point about turks. but arabs never did anything to us. if all the genocide survivors ended up in europe and the u.s., no one outside armenia would speak armenian. i can see this in my own family: the ones who grew up in the middle east speak armenian, the ones who didn't don't. are you talking about armenia during the arab conquest. i don't think it was any worse than the other periods of foreign rule.

[kumkap]

Iraq is an aritfical state that shouldn't even exist. Its people are mongrelized savages worth nothing.

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iraqis are mongrelized but americans and pretty much everyone else in the world is not? you just showed a very disturbing side of yourself. maybe you should sign up for the u.s. military or israeli defense forces. kill 'em all, as they say. maybe you can push the button when they decide to nuke the middle east. but oops, armenia is only a few hundred kilometers from iraq!

But that's not the point, America is currently a tool like a fork or an axe, and we're not the ones wielding it for a several decades now.

yeah, and it's not the arabs wielding it, it's the wannabe semites.

Sounds like jewspeak.

i don't get this one. what's jewspeak about showing that byzantines and arabs culturally interacted with eachother? jewspeak is most of what you've said so far about arabs. you sound like daniel pipes or bernard lewis. do you want them to go after iran and syria too? that would be great for armenia, wouldn't it?

We are stronger than that, Greeks haven't allowed it neither shall we.

i wouldn't be so sure. armenians sure like leaving armenia, and they sure like the new religions from the west that help them get out of doing military service, don't they.

[DominO]

The Current State Of Ani

[skhara]

This exchange between Artaxias and kumkamp shows the very real and obvious cultural divide between people who identify themselves as Armenians. I sometimes wonder if it would be better for all these peoples to split in to their own various nationalities to avoid confusion. How much do bunches of these people really have in common with each other?

 

kumkamp, you described what "Europe" means to you. Well let me tell you what "Middle East" means to me:

 

It means brown people on camels with rags on their heads waving curved half-moon shaped swords while cutting off heads and yelling Allah-Akbar. I have no self-identity with the Middle East. The Caucasus, sure, not Middle East.

 

And you brought up the Persians/Iranians. Yes we certainly have ties with them. Ties that were much closer before the Islamisation of Iran. Ties that likely would be of mutual solidarity today if Persia never became Islamisized. And you can bet that even Persia, not to mention Armenia, had more in common with the Greko-Roman world (my defenition of Europe) then with desert dwelling bedoiuns who's defenition of "honor" is looting.

 

Just to confirm that. Think of the cataphract for a minute. There was the Persian cataphract. There was the Armenian cataphract. And there was the Greek-Byzantine cataphract. All were very similar to each other. And the cataphract was much more similar to the European knight. All were warriors covered in armor (not rags), riding an armoured horse (not camel).

Edited August 25, 2005 by skhara

[gamavor]

Then why should we associate ourselves with these ''Europeans''?

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The idea is not new. During the Cold War, the Soviet Union was in charge of establishing some kind of Christian Orthodox - Moderate Moslems union in the sphere of culture, global politics and economy. That way Syria, Iraq, Yemen, Egypt, Lybia and some other moderate moslem but hardline marxist countries were brought under the Soviet umbrella.

 

After the collapse of the Soviet Union the need for re-vitalizing such union was felt again as a counter balance of power against Jewish-Protestant alience. The Eastern Orthodox church of Antioch (the most ancient Orthodox church) in the past few years started to revisit the idea and attempts to bring together the 'old friends' were made on several occassions. If cleaned of all ideological crap I think it is a good Idea.

[gamavor]

And you can bet that even Persia, not to mention Armenia, had more in common with the Greko-Roman world (my defenition of Europe)

 

Exactly my definition of Europe too!!!

 

Plus, Evropa (Europa) was a mythological daughter of a Phoenician king, just south east of Mittani and straight line south of Vaspurakan in Western Armenia.

 

So, how European Europa is???

 

Cheers Skhara!

[Dave]

It means brown people on camels with rags on their heads waving curved half-moon shaped swords while cutting off heads and yelling Allah-Akbar. I have no self-identity with the Middle East. The Caucasus, sure, not Middle East.

 

Well that's just a funny anachronistic generalization.

 

http://skyscraperpage.com/gallery/data/592...bu_dhabi_01.jpg

http://homepage.mac.com/drysdale/Images/UA...bai_skyline.jpg

 

Does this city come to your mind? Believe it or not, it's Abu Dhabi, a city in the Arabian peninsula.

 

 

Only our ennemies would benefit from these disputes.

Edited August 25, 2005 by Dave

[skhara]

Well that's just a funny anachronistic generalization. 

 

Of coarse it is a generalization Dave, but I countered the same kind of generalization by kumkamp of what Europe ment to him.

 

Only our ennemies would benefit from these disputes.

 

These disputes would not exist in the first place if historical cirmustances did not create them. We can't snap our fingers, or build a time machine to change history as of yet.

[Artaxias]

Of course our enemies will and are benefiting from this. That doesn't mean we have to ignore these issues. It's a perfectly natural internal problem that would have never existed were it not for the various unfortunate historical events as shkara said in his wisdom. Sooner we face this the sooner there will be relative unity, which will lead to progress and prosperity.

 

kumkap, I will respond tomorrow. Very tired now after gym. I do understand where you're coming from and how you ended up believing in the things you do, as false and delusional as they may be.

[Nakharar]

Europe does not exist. Or a "European" identity. It is an illusion that some Eurocrats are desperate to sell.

 

Some of us seem to forget that Europe was referred to as Christendom until the 100 Year wars. The only common denominator the continent has is Christianity or the remnants of Christian culture.

[skhara]

The only common denominator the continent has is Christianity or the remnants of Christian culture.

 

I would say that it is the occidental/"western" civilization. Maybe that's what you mean by "Christian culture".

[Dave]

Of course our enemies will and are benefiting from this. That doesn't mean we have to ignore these issues. It's a perfectly natural internal problem that would have never existed were it not for the various unfortunate historical events as shkara said in his wisdom. Sooner we face this the sooner there will be relative unity, which will lead to progress and prosperity.

 

Problem is... we have been like this since the time of the Romans and Persians.

[Nakharar]

I would say that it is the occidental/"western" civilization.  Maybe that's what you mean by "Christian culture".

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Yes that's what I meant. And not to forget the secular pillar of Western civilization, the Greek-Roman humanistic traditions.

[Artaxias]

black music is what britney spears, justin timberlake, christina aguilera and all those other spoiled white kids make their riches off of. they're just very good at copying.

 

I don’t know if I would call it music as most of it is garbage, but yeah, these United States are in total cultural decay. I guess we stole English from negroes as well, since most of the degenerate corrupted youth uses ebonics. In addition, the abomination that is rap would have never existed sans the beatnik poetry of the 60's, blues would have never been around sans country, bluegrass, polka and folk music. Don’t forget honkey tonk and rockabilly. Johnny Horton, Wanda Jackson etc.

 

Classical music, the truest form of pure soul music humanity (European mankind) has ever created.

 

i suppose the first humans appeared in ireland as well.

 

Celts migrated to Ireland assimilating the pre-IE autochthons there, who were responsible for the megalithic structures. They were most likely related to the continental old-European Iberian peoples (Basques being their descendants).

 

sure. that's why there's an indian restaurant on every corner in britain. you enjoy your hamburgers and hot dogs and i'll stick to the food my anatolian grandmother makes.

 

Thanks to multiculturalist propaganda we are fed on a daily basis. Actually, I have never eaten indian food nor do I know anyone that did. Hamburgers and hot dogs are called junk food for a reason and would hardly qualify as cuisine. Once again, Italian and French cuisine reign supreme in the world.

 

the maltese language is filthy because it's semitic or because it's guttural? armenian sounds guttural to most english speakers. i've heard some people say it sounds like arabic or persian.

 

Can it be both?

Armenian doesn’t sound guttural to most English speakers nor does it sound like Persian or arabic. The vomit inducing language you speak does. It makes me sick to mo stomach every time I hear your kind speak. Though I’m pleasantly surprised each time I encounter one that can speak like a human being.

 

the ones that still speak armenian unlike their distant cousins here in america who have rejoined their long lost european brothers.

 

I rather have an individual with Armenian heritage not know a single word of Armenian than some dune coons corrupting my native tongue and thinking they know Armenian.

 

so what you're really saying is that the genocide was actually a good thing! it got rid of all the impurities in the nordic gene pool of armenians.

 

I said no such thing actually, but hey I’m used to ad hominem’s anyhow.

For your information no more than 10% of Armenians would be classified as Nordic.

 

now that's a good one. it upgraded it to such an extent that everyone who could leave after '91 became credit card fraudsters, gangbangers driving their fancy cars around their ghetto neighborhoods, and arms smugglers boasting of ties to al qaeda who made neat work destroying the excellent reputation armenian genocide survivors (mostly western armenians) and their progeny built up for all of us in places like boston, detroit, wisconsin, fresno, in the 90 or so years since they first came here.

 

Fine, who wants such garbage anynow? You can have them. In any case those rabiz thugs are still more Armenian than you.

I’m not sure about the excellent reputation considering 90% were blue collar other than a handful of people (Saroyan I guess) didn’t produce any important figures in any medium but hey you got Cher. There’s not enough room in this forum to post a list of all the brilliant scientists, artists, composers, writers, poets etc. that enriched world culture from the tiny Transcaucasian Republic.

 

cilician armenians during this period were far closer culturally to greeks, syriacs, copts, etc. (all of whom lived in or contiguous to the islamic world) than they were to western europeans. otherwise why would the crusaders have slaughtered so many eastern christians? it's a serious question, why would christians speaking an indo-european language in constantinople be slaughtered by christians from western europe along their journey to liberate the holy land from the muslims?

 

Greeks yes. Copts and Syriacs barely, and only the non-Chalcedonian Armenians.

Crusaders (thousands of whom were Armenians) the non-Armenians had at least some Armenian blood anyway. The problems during the Fourth Crusade were economical not cultural.

 

the barbarian occupation you are talking about was a central asian one, not a middle eastern one. the dark ages in spain was the period before the muslims arrived. spain's most enlightened period intellectually and culturally was under the moors. it was never the same after the christians reconquered it.

 

What’s the difference? No it was not, the Saracens and moors translated a few Greek books, stole numbers from India, architecture from the Eastern Roman Empire etc.

The occupation by the subhuman moors was one of the worst periods in the history of peninsula. Not longer after the reconquista, both nations became superpowers.

 

the evidence suggests that the people living around mt. ararat traded with the mesopotamians. for example the mesopotamians traded with them for wine.

 

Yes everyone always traded with everyone. They also traded with the Etruscans and Minoans. Whoop dee doo.

 

still not sure why ossetians are european but persian and indic peoples are not.

 

I know! That’s why it’s amusing and sad at the same time.

 

yes and i have been myself from day one too. we'll pretend that syriac/aramaic wasn't important to the spread of christianity, especially the armenian kind.

 

Sure, Syriacs played an important role, albeit a secondary one. They were all under our auspices hence civilized. Your beloved arab towelheads eviscerated their civilization and now occupy their lands.

 

your concept of "ours" is a total figment of your imagination. greek is indo-european, syriac is semitic. was there an enormous civilizational divide between those people at the time of jesus, or even later on when the arabs came on the scene between the byzantines and the arabs? nobody was even aware of the existence of an indo-european language family until early last century, let alone the ancient mediterranean world. back then a foreign language was a foreign language, nobody thought about whether it was indo-european or not. arabs interacted with greeks (who interacted with egyptians who interacted with mesopotamians) who interacted with persians who interacted with indians who interacted with chinese etc. etc.

 

It’s very real, the fact that you don’t understand proves further how alienated you are.

Language families weren’t discovered but they knew since Ceasars expedition to Gaul that various languages are related to eachother. You’re spouting the multicultist myth that we’re all the same. Frankly I have no desire to continue this argument if that’s where you stand. The concepts of “ours” is racial, cultural and metaphysical.

 

This is a concept that must mean progress in all conceivable ways. Europe is a territory which encompasses all the peoples whose identity survived the onslaught of non-European and anti-European forces. Europe is heterogeneous, and it's easier to say what it isn't that what it is. Europe is a creative force, the only worthy future of mankind.

 

 

and i suppose hellenistic civilization dropped out of the sky. god sent the indo-european man down to earth to bring learning and enlightenment to the world.

 

If I thought you were interested in a history lesson I would answer that.

 

you don't seem to be able to grasp the most basic principle of christianity: it is a universalist religion, which is why it has spread so widely and why the jews hate christians so much. it destroys their monopoly on chosenness. if it only was meant for one race of people, it would cease to be christianity.

 

Whatever it is, ultimately it’s a tool that serves our purposes. No need to elaborate any further.

therefore, it is in europe? ah, so you support turkish entry into the e.u.

 

We’re going back in circles here. I’m against the concept of EU in general.

 

never say never. what your post shows is that you seem to know a lot about indo-european origins/history but are completely ignorant about other civilizations. and what you are ignorant about you think does not exist.

 

I know a lot about other civilizations as well, keyword being civilization, such as the Chinese. Our just happens to be superior.

 

probably true but that's meaningless today. we're not going to travel back in time by creating a single culture among all of today's i.e. speakers. even the turks couldn't do that with their central asian brethren, as much as they tried, after the fall of the soviet union.

 

For you perhaps, for some us it means a lot.

 

so who's we? did you appoint yourself spokesperson for the armenian culture police?

 

Nobody. I’m here to oppose you. Very simple.

 

no quibble from me on your point about turks. but arabs never did anything to us. if all the genocide survivors ended up in europe and the u.s., no one outside armenia would speak armenian. i can see this in my own family: the ones who grew up in the middle east speak armenian, the ones who didn't don't. are you talking about armenia during the arab conquest. i don't think it was any worse than the other periods of foreign rule.

 

Why? arabs damaged Armenia 10000000 times more than turks could ever do. If it wasn’t for them turks would have never ever reached our region. They are the ones that nearly annihilatef our nobility and way of life. They are the ones that weakened our society and left it in shambles after Armenia was finally liberated from the Saracen yoke. We never fully recovered from that. Some survived, some were sold into slavery. You know those infamous pictures of tattooed girls. This will sound cruel but I wish there were no survivors as least they would have been remembered for what they were not for what they became living alongside (I constantly have to remind myself that they are people) middle easterners. This is a generalization in context of this argument.

 

iraqis are mongrelized but americans and pretty much everyone else in the world is not? you just showed a very disturbing side of yourself. maybe you should sign up for the u.s. military or israeli defense forces. kill 'em all, as they say. maybe you can push the button when they decide to nuke the middle east. but oops, armenia is only a few hundred kilometers from iraq!

 

Get a grip. America is not my ideal society. It hasn’t been one for nearly five decades.

They’re all the same to me, arabs, turds, pissraelis, kurds etc. I don’t care about any of them. I would like to see them all wipe out eachother. Meanwhile, we’ll use them cannon fodder.

 

yeah, and it's not the arabs wielding it, it's the wannabe semites.

 

Wannabe or not it’s them and you’re basically what they love the most.

 

i don't get this one. what's jewspeak about showing that byzantines and arabs culturally interacted with eachother? jewspeak is most of what you've said so far about arabs. you sound like daniel pipes or bernard lewis. do you want them to go after iran and syria too? that would be great for armenia, wouldn't it?

 

I don’t think it requires elaboration. No I support Syria and Iran. Doesn’t mean I like them, I just tolerate them as there are bigger fish to fry.

 

i wouldn't be so sure. armenians sure like leaving armenia, and they sure like the new religions from the west that help them get out of doing military service, don't they.

 

Funny, I’m almost positive we’ll resurface on top.

We have accomplished far more in these past few years than anyone could have ever dreamed. Rome wasn’t built in one day. Patience is one of the fundamental attributes of the European man.

 

Good luck.

[skhara]

Funny, I’m almost positive we’ll resurface on top.

 

That's the spirit!! Positive attitude!

 

The targetted goal -- moving from a negative growth rate to zero growth rate!

[Dave]

Once again, Italian and French cuisine reign supreme in the world.

I guess it all comes down to personnal taste.

 

Can it be both?

Armenian doesn’t sound guttural to most English speakers nor does it sound like Persian or arabic. The vomit inducing language you speak does. It makes me sick to mo stomach every time I hear your kind speak. Though I’m pleasantly surprised each time I encounter one that can speak like a human being.

 

The Armenian language can be mistaken for Farsi by some, French by others. After all, Armenia is where the Indo-European language group started out.

 

I rather have an individual with Armenian heritage not know a single word of Armenian than some dune coons corrupting my native tongue and thinking they know Armenian.

 

Western Armenians aren't the only ones who mix foreign words into their language...

 

Where is the Armenian ''heritage'' if that person does not know a single word of Armenian?

 

What’s the difference? No it was not, the Saracens and moors translated a few Greek books, stole numbers from India, architecture from the Eastern Roman Empire etc.

 

Something that Western Europe wasn't able to do.

 

The occupation by the subhuman moors was one of the worst periods in the history of peninsula. Not longer after the reconquista, both nations became superpowers.

 

Thanks to your French and Spanish brothers, our opponents use other events like the Spanish inquisition or the French Genocide of the Algerians as arguments against our cause...

 

Sure, Syriacs played an important role, albeit a secondary one. They were all under our auspices hence civilized. Your beloved arab towelheads eviscerated their civilization and now occupy their lands.

 

Syriacs/Assyrians were semitic too, like the Arabs and ancient Jews. The alphabet they wrote and the language they spoke were related to Arabic and Hebrew.

 

The problems during the Fourth Crusade were economical not cultural.

 

Yes, the Crusaders weren't good enough to go for cities like Damascus and Baghdad, so they went for Constantinople? Thanks to the Catholic Crusaders, Constantionople was easy pray later on in 1453.

 

This is a concept that must mean progress in all conceivable ways. Europe is a territory which encompasses all the peoples whose identity survived the onslaught of non-European and anti-European forces.

 

It's true that there isn't an exact definition of what ''Europe'' is... According to your definition, Canada should be included in Europe. Would you include France, with all its' North African immigrants, as a part of Europe? They're not going to go ''back'' to Africa unless they are forced to.

 

Why? arabs damaged Armenia 10000000 times more than turks could ever do. If it wasn’t for them turks would have never ever reached our region. They are the ones that nearly annihilatef our nobility and way of life. They are the ones that weakened our society and left it in shambles after Armenia was finally liberated from the Saracen yoke. We never fully recovered from that. Some survived, some were sold into slavery.

 

What arabs weren't able to do, Byzantines did in 1045. There was no more nobility left in Armenia.

 

You know those infamous pictures of tattooed girls. This will sound cruel but I wish there were no survivors as least they would have been remembered for what they were not for what they became living alongside (I constantly have to remind myself that they are people) middle easterners. This is a generalization in context of this argument.

 

So you would rather see those 500 000 survivors (your fellow Armenians) killed by Turks?

 

 

About Anatolia...

 

Anatolia is not geographically located in Europe. It's also called ''Asia Minor'' for a reason.

 

However it was culturally European (to a certain degree) before Turkish rule.

Edited August 26, 2005 by Dave

[Artaxias]

I guess it all comes down to personnal taste.

 

Fine.

 

The Armenian language can be mistaken for Farsi by some, French by others. After all, Armenia is where the Indo-European language group started out.

Western Armenians aren't the only ones who mix foreign words into their language...

 

I've heard farsi spoken that actually sounds normal, but the average iranian's farsi is far from it. I have no problem with "mixing foreign words", as long as they're IE. Look at the amount of Latin in Russian and English.

 

Where is the Armenian ''heritage'' if that person does not know a single word of Armenian?

 

Mentality, culture, upbringing etc. It's better than speaking a bastardized language from the middle east that sounds like shit.

 

Something that Western Europe wasn't able to do.

 

Please, Europeans create their own.

 

Thanks to your French and Spanish brothers, our opponents use other events like the Spanish inquisition or the French Genocide of the Algerians as arguments against our cause...

 

There was no so called genocide of algerians.

What exactly is our cause?

 

Syriacs/Assyrians were semitic too, like the Arabs and ancient Jews. The alphabet they wrote and the language they spoke were related to Arabic and Hebrew.

 

Eureka! lol

They were domesticated.

 

Yes, the Crusaders weren't good enough to go for cities like Damascus and Baghdad, so they went for Constantinople? Thanks to the Catholic Crusaders, Constantionople was easy pray later on in 1453.

 

It's a complicated problem and an internal one. We have done some nasty things to them in the past as well.

 

It's true that there isn't an exact definition of what ''Europe'' is... According to your definition, Canada should be included in Europe.

 

Canada is not in Eurasia.

 

Would you include France, with all its' North African immigrants, as a part of Europe? They're not going to go ''back'' to Africa unless they are forced to.

 

They can be encouraged to leave. People are slowly waking up. There's good progress in Netherlands.

 

What arabs weren't able to do, Byzantines did in 1045. There was no more nobility left in Armenia.

 

Blame Armenians, not Romans who were mostly Armenians anyway.

I believe we already discussed in another thread.

 

 

If the alternative was for them to be assimilated by stinking middle easterners.

We're talking about the ones that ended up in the middle east, not the fortunate ones.

 

About Anatolia...

 

Anatolia is not geographically located in Europe. It's also called ''Asia Minor'' for a reason.

 

The eastern border of Europe is subjective, it's a social construct.

Geography takes a backseat when it comes to dividing Eurasia.

 

However it was culturally European (to a certain degree) before Turkish rule.

style_images/master/snapback.png

 

The Eastern Roman Empire was the most sophisticated and developed state in the world for many centuries. Today only Cyprus and Armenia remain in the periphery and the ancient breadbasket of our civilization. Georgia is a different matter. It's not something we can't fix. Be optimistic.

[DominO]

The eastern border of Europe is subjective, it's a social construct.

style_images/master/snapback.png

 

Like if Europe wasn't.

[Nakharar]

About i.e. unity it is just that: i.e. unity. You were a tad bit late for that and for the Thule society.

[Artaxias]

Like if Europe wasn't.

style_images/master/snapback.png

 

 

Even if it is, like most things. It's worth fighting for and preserving.