Ways To Propose For Marriage

[Anoushik]

Azat jan, why do you think that the male is the only one that works?  Both male and females work at this day of time.  The role of a female is doing everything that a male does and on top of all time they have; cooking, cleaning, changing diapers, waking up at night to feed the baby and on top of all that, working full time.  Now what’s so hard in giving someone you love a memorable proposal?

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Exactly Amy. Not only do most wives work full time nowadays, they also continue with the second shift in the homes, with cooking, cleaning, shopping, providing emotional support for the family members, making sure that everyone's satisfied, etc. The men only work in the office. Big deal.

[Anoushik]

Amy, it sounds like you are longing for a "traditional" 1950-1960s marriage.

 

First: Look around you will realize that men not only work8, 9, 10, 12 hours a day, but they also help around the house, change diapers, clean the outside, mow lawns, trim trees and wash cars amongst other things.

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Really? Where? Who? Maybe the only progressive in this are the Danish people in Denmark, even still it is calculated that the women still do more then half of the housework (in addition to working full time). The Armenian men (even here in the US) do not even come close to that.

Third: I have no problem doing all that and doing ALOT more and am SURE will do MUCH more for the right person.  But my question is and has always been, why does it have to be about her?  Are women going to do anything to make the men happy? And no I don not mean sex and all that.  To tell you the truth I DONT know a single guy who is happy about paying 10K for a ring and it would make any men thrilled if the female paid for the ring if not the entire about then half.  Would you be willing to do that?  I dont think so.  So I guess you dont want him to be happy, but you have to be very happy.

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Your question is, why does it have to be about her? Because it never was.

Edited September 8, 2005 by anoushik

[Anoushik]

I guess my question still stands as I dont think anyone has come close to answering it:

"Whats in it for the men"

. Vava was the only one that came close to identifying the idea situation yet I have to be honest and say that I have never seen that. Men loose their balls after a few years of marriage.

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They end up with xelok wives who are willing accept and to take their selfish, egoistic beings as the norm and who are always there to "calm" their husbands down whenever the storm hits. Plus a free house cleaner.

[Azat]

I disagree with you previous post.

 

Exactly Amy. Not only do most wives work full time nowadays, they also continue with the second shift in the homes, with cooking, cleaning, shopping, providing emotional support for the family members, making sure that everyone's satisfied, etc. The men only work in the office. Big deal.

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Please dont even go there with the comment that men only work in the office. I personally do the shopping out household and have been doing it for the last 10 years(after my my was diagnosed with brain cancer). Needless to say there are MANY and I mean MANY Armenian men with me at Raffi's grocery. So to say that women do the shopping is false.

 

Maybe they provide emotional support but men provide financial support more often then not. Even when women work. Women ALWAYS look for a guy who is either going to provide for her completely and if not they seek men who earn more than they do.

 

So I guess cleaning around the house, the driveway, cars the lawn, backyard, pool does not count?

 

Cooking - I can personally tell you that I cook 4-5 days a week for the family.(I do it mostly because I enjoy it and because I am better than my sister, although she is a great cook) but I can also tell you that my father made breakfast and lunch for 7+ years for my mom while she was ill and he also did the laundry for them(mom and dad) and made the bed and cleaned around. So to say that Armenian men(and he is born in the 30s) do not do that is FALSE.

 

And about women cleaning all all that. I know this sounds a bit snobbish but majority of my friends are fairly well off and few of their wifes are stay home moms. ALL my friends who are married have either live in nannies or housekeepers. Even if the wife is a stay home mom. So the BS that women work as hard as men and then come home and work work a second shift is not true either.

 

Believe me I know there are many exceptions and if I meet a woman who is willing to be in a 50/50 relationship I would jump in with my eyes closed, but until than I say that men do more. Its just for YEARS we have been manipulated by society to believe that women do everything and men dont and we men would hang out head down and agree.

[Anoushik]

Azat, please of course women want to marry men who earn more then they do because men do earn more than women. It's just a fact.

 

And yes, that comment that your friends have stay-at-home wives plus nannies and housekeepers is snobbish. No further comments about this.

 

Cleaning around the house, the driveway, the cars, the pool, etc. are not every day things. Cleaning (kitchen, toilets, bathrooms, bedrooms, living room) cooking (and subsequently setting the table, clearing the table, doing the dishes, at least 3 times a day for more than 1 person), shopping (every day grocery things), doing laundry (every day laundry if you have babies and little kids), are every day things.

[Anoushik]

Azat, I wanted to say I'm sorry to know that someone in your family was diagnosed with brain cancer (you didn't say who). I cannot imagine how difficult that must have been. Also, it seems that you are an exceptional male human being. Most men (not only Armenian men) don't want to hear anything about sharing household chores with their wives.

[Azat]

Azat, please of course women want to marry men who earn more then they do because men do earn more than women. It's just a fact.

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So because it is a fact of life I guess that does not count for anything? See this is exactly what I mean Anoushik jan. There are things that we do that are given and expected and no one gives a rats ass about it and forget when we do it. I think MEN need to point out EVERYTHNIG that we do for women to appreciate it.

 

 

And yes, that comment that your friends have stay-at-home wives plus nannies and housekeepers is snobbish. No further comments about this.

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Snobish or not it is reality. Women finda guy earns a good income and lightbulbs go off in their hear about staying home and doing nothing.

 

 

Cleaning around the house, the driveway, the cars, the pool, etc. are not every day things. Cleaning (kitchen, toilets, bathrooms, bedrooms, living room) cooking (and subsequently setting the table, clearing the table, doing the dishes, at least 3 times a day for more than 1 person), shopping (every day grocery things), doing laundry (every day laundry if you have babies and little kids), are every day things.

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This idea that we dont clean around the house, bathroom, bedrooms and such is NOT true. WE DO.

 

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In regards the last point. My mom passed away over a year ago from brain cancer after a 7-8 year battle

[Sip]

Azat, I think it's the woman who takes care of her husband in the long run, not vice versa. It's the woman who nurtures her husband and their kids. Who makes sure that the family will stay together, no matter what. Getting down on one knee, proposing, and paying for the ring is a very cheap bargain for having a loving and caring wife for the rest of his life. ...

 

That is sooooooooooo last century.

[vava]

... The men only work in the office. Big deal.

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In a word: "no"

 

I don't know which men you know - or what generation you're referring to - but I assure that you're mistaken on this point.

[ExtraHye]

Sorry for the late reply, I've got the flu. Is this what I get for not eating an apple each day? Where is my doctor?

 

Amy, it sounds like you are longing for a "traditional" 1950-1960s marriage.

No Azat jan, that is so not true? Where did you come up with this conclusion? If you look up, you'll notice I said all this wasn't a must, but that it would be very nice for the guy to help his girlfriends childhood dreams come true. I don't care what others say, all girls have had the same dream, for the love of their life to propose over a nice dinner overlooking the beach. Now could you please tell me what the problem is with this? The ring you say is too expensive? Well, I highly doubt that any guy would have "10,000.00" cash laying around. They would most likely be using their credit card on this memorable object. Now who's going to help the guy pay off the card ones his married? Yes, it would be his wife.

 

First: Look around you will realize that men not only work8, 9, 10, 12 hours a day, but they also help around the house, change diapers, clean the outside, mow lawns, trim trees and wash cars amongst other things.

Don't you think women work the same hours now a days? I think you know the answer better then most people on here. But I must admit, I do agree with you on some of this things, SOME guys do HELP their wives with the cooking and cleaning. My dad being one of them. His always been there for my mom with cooking and cleaning. However, not everyone is like that. Most Armenian guys can't even tie their shoe laces by themselves.

And about the lawns and trees? I don't know anyone that does all that on their own. Most people hire someone else to do that for them.

 

Second: All that feeding of babies and all that crap I dont care about as I never want to have kids.  I have stated that MANY times.  If a couple decides to have kids they should think about all the stuff that does with having one.

Well, I did't have you in mind when I was saying all that. And your right, you have always said that you never want to have kids.

 

Third: I have no problem doing all that and doing ALOT more and am SURE will do MUCH more for the right person.  But my question is and has always been, why does it have to be about her?  Are women going to do anything to make the men happy? And no I don not mean sex and all that.  To tell you the truth I DONT know a single guy who is happy about paying 10K for a ring and it would make any men thrilled if the female paid for the ring if not the entire about then half.  Would you be willing to do that?  I dont think so.  So I guess you dont want him to be happy, but you have to be very happy.

I have no doubt that you wouldn't do all this. Most people on here would agree with me on this, your a great guy. But that's not what I'm trying to get at here. You keep on telling me how the guy doesn't get anything out of this, and I keep on saying that he does. His making his girlfriends dream come true, the one lady that he loves and cares for.

Who said anything about me not wanting to pay half? In fact, I was brought up to believe ones your married the wives and husbands incomes combine into one. So yes, I will be paying for half. Or even more.

 

I guess my question still stands as I dont think anyone has come close to answering it: "Whats in it for the men".  Vava was the only one that came close to identifying the idea situation yet I have to be honest and say that I have never seen that.  Men loose their balls after a few years of marriage.

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See this is the problem with everyone now a days. Why must men get something out of making the love of his life happy? Like I said above, he doesn't end up paying for the whole thing in the long run.

I don't understand what you mean "men loose their balls". Do you mean they don't go out more often with the guys? That they have to grow up and think about someone else besides themselves? Please explain what you mean by this statement?

[ExtraHye]

Azat, I think it's the woman who takes care of her husband in the long run, not vice versa. It's the woman who nurtures her husband and their kids. Who makes sure that the family will stay together, no matter what. Getting down on one knee, proposing, and paying for the ring is a very cheap bargain for having a loving and caring wife for the rest of his life.

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Very well said Anushik jan!!! I don't understand why guys always seem to think it's all about them. Never making the other person next to them happy.

[ExtraHye]

Very well said Anushik jan!!!  I don't understand why guys always seem to think it's all about them.  Never making the other person next to them happy.

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Edit: Most guys.

[Sip]

I don't know about all the other stuff but the most disturbing thing to me about all this is that there are still girls out there whose "life long dream" is just that ... for a guy to get on one knee and beg for this supposedly amazing gift of saying "yes".

 

Frankly, if that's the "life long dream" of the girl I'm with, all I have to say is thanks but no thanks.

[Anoushik]

In a word: "no"

 

I don't know which men you know - or what generation you're referring to - but I assure that you're mistaken on this point.

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The men that I'm referring to are the men that I see and have heard about. (Obviously I don't "know" know them.) Ex. some of the husband's of my female professors (and most of them are professors themselves), the husbands of my collegues, the husbands of my parents' friends, some of my relatives, and most of the Armenian young adults living in the LA area. Notice, in this group includes both people of Armenian descent and non-Armenians.

[ExtraHye]

I don't know about all the other stuff but the most disturbing thing to me about all this is that there are still girls out there whose "life long dream" is just that ... for a guy to get on one knee and beg for this supposedly amazing gift of saying "yes".

 

Frankly, if that's the "life long dream" of the girl I'm with, all I have to say is thanks but no thanks.

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Who said anything about it being my "life long dream" If you look at my above post, I said something wayyyyyyy diffrent. Well better yet, I'll make it easy for you, here is my post....

You can't base your whole life on the way the guy proposes to you. Some guys are just the sweetest things in the world, but don't know how to express themselves. How ever on the flipside, a guy could propose to his girlfriend right from a story book but end up cheating on her in the long run. Don't get me wrong, I would love it if my boyfriend took me out to a very nice restaurant and proposed on one knee, but you can't base everything on that.

The only thing I said was that it wouldn't kill the guy to do that one small little gesture to make the girls childhood dreams come true. So please don't read something that isn't there.

[Anoushik]

That is sooooooooooo last century.

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I wish it was.

[ExtraHye]

That is sooooooooooo last century.

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Could you please in lighten us about this century?

Edited September 8, 2005 by ExtraHye

[Anoushik]

There are things that we do that are given and expected and no one gives a rats ass about it and forget when we do it.  I think MEN need to point out EVERYTHNIG that we do for women to appreciate it.

Snobish or not it is reality.  Women finda guy earns a good income and lightbulbs go off in their hear about staying home and doing nothing.

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You're right that some things that we do are always taken for granted, and we don't often stop and think and show some appreciation for what we are given. This goes for both men and women. But you're generalizing when you say that women find guys with good incomes and do nothing. That's not fair to say because it is not true.

This idea that we dont clean around the house, bathroom, bedrooms and such is NOT true.  WE DO.

Azat, knowing you from your posts I can say that you are a very progressive, open-minded, generous, sensitive, compassionate person. I have no doubt that you do these things, or that you would do it if you were married. But most men don't. That's what my experience (limited, yes) has shown me so far. A guy does not have to be married for me to see whether he helps women or not. The way a guy talks and thinks about marriage tells me what kind of an environment he's been brought up in and what he himself expects from his marriage in the future.

[Sip]

Could you please in lighten us about this century?

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Yes ... now things are far more dynamic. Both men and women move around with the opportunities, they have lofty career and personal goals, and getting married, forming a family, "settling down", and raising kids is no longer the primary driving force in many people's lives.

 

This is also a major contributing factor to the ever increasing divorce rate (not to mention the decreasing number of people willing to consider marriage).

 

Now I fully realize that in the "Glendale/Burbank" microcosm things are still very last century in many respects. But I am referring to the larger picture in the more "forward moving" metropolitan/suburban populations in the US.

[Anoushik]

Now I fully realize that in the "Glendale/Burbank" microcosm things are still very last century in many respects. But I am referring to the larger picture in the more "forward moving" metropolitan/suburban populations in the US.

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You're right, in the "forward moving" metropolitan populations women have understood that they don't need to deal with men. They understand that no matter how much we wish, we can never change them. Thus, many women don't ever marry, or they decide to become single parents. This completely proves my point that things are not as rozy as you and Azat, and Vava claim. Men will remain men. It's just that now the women have the choice to decide whether they want to deal with it or not.

[Sip]

Who said anything about it being my "life long dream"  If you look at my above post, I said something wayyyyyyy diffrent.  Well better yet, I'll make it easy for you, here is my post....

 

Well, maybe not yours per se but we'll probably agree that there still are a large number of girls/women who have been brought up their entire lives having that specific "dream" contantly drilled in their heads.

[Sip]

You're right, in the "forward moving" metropolitan populations women have understood that they don't need to deal with men. ...

 

We would agree if you leave "to deal with" out of that sentence. Otherwise, we disagree.

[Anoushik]

Deal with their egos... maybe?

[Anoushik]

Well, maybe not yours per se but we'll probably agree that there still are a large number of girls/women who have been brought up their entire lives having that specific "dream" contantly drilled in their heads.

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Yes, of course. And these same large number of girls will end up waiting on their husbands in their married future years. That's what happens when girls don't use their brains and guys live up to the expectations of traditions.

[Takoush]

You're right, in the "forward moving" metropolitan populations women have understood that they don't need to deal with men. They understand that no matter how much we wish, we can never change them. Thus, many women don't ever marry, or they decide to become single parents. This completely proves my point that things are not as rozy as you and Azat, and Vava claim. Men will remain men. It's just that now the women have the choice to decide whether they want to deal with it or not.

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I have seen this with odars a lot and with some Armenian men or women as well.

The new generation are definitely not moving fast in getting themselves married, that's for sure. I mean men or women. They're either getting married in their late 20's or 30's or not getting married at all.