Netherlands Recognizes Armenian Genocide

[nairi]

It happened tonight. The Dutch parliament recognized the Armenian genocide. This will be translated soon. It's a press release by The Federation of Armenian Organizations in the Netherlands:

 

------------------

Federatie Armeense Organisaties Nederland

24 april comite

 

PERSBERICHT

 

Nederland erkent Armeense Genocide

 

Den Haag, 21 december 2004 - De Armeense Federatie is verheugd dat vandaag de Tweede Kamer met algemene stemmen een motie over de erkenning van de Armeense genocide heeft aangenomen.

 

Jarenlang heeft de Armeense gemeenschap bij Kamer en Regering op erkenning van de Armeense genocide van 1915 aangedrongen. Speciaal het afgelopen jaar, in de aanloop naar en tijdens het Nederlandse voorzitterschap van EU, is door het 24 april comite van de Armeense Federatie voortdurend actie gevoerd om de Armeense kwestie onder de aandacht van de kamerleden en van het Nederlandse publiek brengen.

 

De motie werd ingediend in het debat over de uitkomsten van de Europese Top m.b.t. Turkije. In dat debat stelden vrijwel alle fracties vragen aan de Regering over het uitblijven van conclusies ter zake van de Armeense genocide. Dit ondanks inzet van o.a. Frankrijk en het Europees Parlement en ook van Minister Bot zelf, die de kwestie steeds bij de Turkse collega's aan de orde heeft gesteld. Een meerderheid van de Kamer had daarom gevraagd.

 

In de motie wordt de regering gevraagd om "de erkenning van de Armeense genocide voortdurend en nadrukkelijk aan de orde te stellen in de dialoog met Turkije".

 

Christen Unie fractievoorzitter Rouvoet diende de motie in, die de steun kreeg van alle andere partijen in de Kamer.

------------------------------------

Tekst van Motie

 

TWEEDE KAMER DER STATEN-GENERAAL 2

VergadeIjaar 2004-2005

 

21 501-20

Europese Raad

 

Nr.270

MOTIE VAN HET LID ROUVOET C.S.

Voorgesteld 21 december 2004

 

De Kamer,

 

gehoord de beraadslaging,

 

constaterende dat de Europese Raad, bijeen in vergadering op 16 en 17 december 2004 te Brussel, heeft besloten tot de start van de toetredingsonderhandelingen met Turkije per 3 oktober 2005;

 

constaterende dat de Europese Raad in haar conclusies heeft vastgelegd dat met Turkije een intensieve politieke en culturele dialoog wordt aangegaan, waarbij ook het maatschappelijk middenveld wordt betrokken, teneinde het wederzijds begrip te

verbeteren door mensen samen te brengen (conclusie 23);

 

van mening dat daar onlosmakelijk mee verbonden is een eerlijke omgang met de eigen geschiedenis van een kandidaat~lidstaat;

 

verzoekt de regering om binnen het kader van deze dialoog met Turkije voortdurend en nadrukkelijk de erkenning van de Armeense genocide aan de orde te stellen;

 

en gaat over tot de orde van de dag.

 

Rouvoet

van Bommel

van der Staaij

van der Laan

van Baalen

Herben

Huyvendak

Wilders

[MosJan]

The Dutch parliament recognized the Armenian genocide

 

Sister JAN you have made my daye !!!

 

Thank you

[Sasun]

Wow! This is great. Wasn't it kind of unexpected?

[Armen]

Wow! This is great. Wasn't it kind of unexpected?

style_images/master/snapback.png

 

The Europeans are gonna piss the hell out of Turkey with this kinda unexpected stuff

[Siamanto]

The Dutch parliament recognized the Armenian genocide

                               

 

Sister JAN you have  made my  daye !!!

 

Thank you

style_images/master/snapback.png

 

Mine too! Thanks!

[nairi]

Okay, to summarize quickly:

 

A motion was presented to parliament tonight requesting that the parliament unremittingly and explicitly raise the recognition of the Armenian genocide in its dialogue with Turkey. Majority of MPs voted pro.

 

The motion was presented by de ChristenUnie (Rouvoet), Socialist Party/SP (Van Bommel), Reformed Party/SGP (Van der Staaij), Liberal Democrats/D66 (Van der Laan), People's Party for Freedom and Democracy/VVD (Herben), Green Left/GL (Duyvendak), Group Wilders/GW (Wilders).

 

Sasun jan, nothing is unexpected

[Sasun]

Sasun jan, nothing is unexpected

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Am I to understand that you were expecting quietly without the knowledge of your fellow forumers

[Siamanto]

I Can't Wait To Hear The Jurkish Explanation And Hysterical Reaction!

 

 

Considering that the Turkish Community of the Netherlands is far more numerous than the Armenian Community, I wonder what "explanation" the Jurks and the Muslim ass kissing rednecks will fabricate? The "Electoral Campaign" BS would be obviously untenable!

[Armen]

I Can't Wait To Hear The Jurkish ..... Hysterical Reaction!

style_images/master/snapback.png

 

It is THAT exciting, eh?

[Siamanto]

[The following is an automatic translation. Not knowing Dutch, I can't assess the quality. Siamanto.]

 

Federation Armenian organisations the Netherlands 24 April comite

 

Press BULLETIN

 

The Netherlands recognises Armenian genocide

 

The Hague, 21 December 2004 - the Armenian federation has been

delighted that today the House of Commons has adopted unanimously a

motion concerning the recognition of the Armenian genocide.

 

Many years' the Armenian community has insisted at chamber and

government on recognition of the Armenian genocide of 1915. Especially

last year, in run-up to and during the Dutch presidency of EU, by 24

April comite of the Armenian federation constant action have been

conducted for the Armenian question under the attention of the Member

of Parliament oaths and of Dutch public bringing.

 

The motion was given notice of in the debate concerning the outcomes

of the European summit with regard to Turkey. In that debate stalks

nearly all fracties ask to the government concerning staying away

conclusions to the point of the Armenian genocide. This in spite of

commitment of among other things France and the European Parliament

and also of minister Bot himself, which the question has brought up

always at the Turkish colleagues. For this reason a majority of the

chamber had asked.

 

In motion the government is asked "bring up the recognition of the

Armenian genocide continuously and expressly in the dialogue with

Turkey".

 

Christian Union fractievoorzitter Rouvoet served motion in, which the

support got of all other parties in the chamber.

 

Text of motion

 

HOUSE OF COMMONS OF THE STATEN-GENERAAL 2 VergadeIjaar 2004-2005

 

21 501-20 European Council

 

Nr.270

MOTION OF THE MEMBER ROUVOET C.S. PRESENTED 21 DECEMBER 2004

 

The chamber,

 

heard the deliberation,

 

observing that the European Council has decided, at meeting on 16 and

17 December 2004 in Brussels, the start of the accession negotiations

with Turkey by 3 October 2005;

 

observing that the European Council in its conclusions has fixed that

with Turkey an intensive political and cultural dialogue is

contracted, where also the civil society is involved, in order to

improve the reciprocal term by bringing together conclusion 23) people

(;

 

of opinion that is linked with that inextricable a honest ambulatory

with its own history of kandidaat~lidstaat;

 

the government requests within the framework of this dialogue with

Turkey continuously and expressly bring up the recognition of the

Armenian genocide;

 

and proceeds to the order of the day.

 

Rouvoet of bommel of of the Staaij of of the alley of being fed up

lords Huyvendak Wilders

[nairi]

Yes, the translation is quite accurate. Wow, that's a pretty good machine!

[Siamanto]

It is THAT exciting, eh?

style_images/master/snapback.png

No, it's NOT!

I just wonder what kind of "fairy tale" explanation their Jurkish provincial mindset will fabricate!

It can't be the usual "Electoral Campaign" BS!!! Can it???

[nairi]

Here's pic of the motion, with translation below:

 

 

 

 

Parliament

Assembly Year 2004-2005

 

21 501-20 European Council

 

Nr.270

 

MOTION OF THE MEMBER ROUVOET C.S.

Presented 21 December 2004

 

The chamber,

 

on the advice of the deliberation,

 

noting that the European Council, in the meeting on 16 and 17 December 2004 in Brussels, has decided the start of the accession negotiations with Turkey on 3 October 2005;

 

noting that the European Council in its conclusion has settled that an intensive political and cultural dialogue will take place with Turkey, whereby civil society is also involved, in order to improve the reciprocal understanding by bringing together the people (conclusion 23);

 

being of the opinion that herewith an honest acceptance of its own history of candidate member state is inextricably connected;

 

asks the government within the framework of its dialogue with Turkey to continuously and expressly raise the recognition of the Armenian genocide;

 

and proceeds to the order of the day.

 

Rouvoet

Van Bommel

Van der Staaij

Van der Laan

Van Baalen

Herbens

Duyvendak

Wilders

 

------

Btw, the motion was unanimously accepted. I made a mistake when I said "the majority". It was everyone. There were already hints that this was going to happen today, seen that many had already signed the motion, and many more sounded positive. The fact that FM Bot welcomed the motion in parliament last night, said enough. But of course the actual outcome was still a surprise. You never know what might happen last minute..

 

Sasun, you guys are one of the first to know Does that compensate?

[Nakharar]

Good. The Turks will never be able to enter the EU.

[Siamanto]

Yes, the translation is quite accurate. Wow, that's a pretty good machine!

style_images/master/snapback.png

nairi,

It's free and it's web based. Try it yourself!

 

http://www.systransoft.com/

 

Again, thanks for the news.

Siamanto.

[DominO123]

nairi,

It's free and it's web based. Try it yourself!

 

http://www.systransoft.com/

 

Again, thanks for the news.

Siamanto.

style_images/master/snapback.png

 

 

Yep! It's the best. Nearly all others(the last time I've checked) are based on Systran 4... from its site we have the 5. I compared both version, 5 is really amazing.

[nairi]

The stenographic report from the debate and votes last night (search for Europese Top - that's where it starts, and ends with next heading about 6 pages later.):

 

http://www.tweedekamer.nl/images/stenogram_tcm22-43029.doc

 

The relevant bit is here:

 

041221debatTOP.doc

 

Siamanto, feel free to pass it through one of your miracle machines

[nairi]

The Dutch parliament recognized the Armenian genocide

                               

 

Sister JAN you have  made my  daye !!!

 

Thank you

style_images/master/snapback.png

 

It's more than just recognition. It is forcing Holland to press Turkey to recognize the Armenian genocide too. Some people didn't really consider this an official recognition by the Dutch government. But it is. Never before has the entire Dutch government unanimously agreed to refer to what has happened as genocide openly, and to press Turkey to do so too! In other words, it's not just a piece of paper; it's something that will have to be put into practice as well.

[MosJan]

[Dave]

Yes... Thank you Netherlands (for another slap to Ankara's face )! 2 weeks ago, Slovakia recognized it too

[nairi]

Well, I think it got its first big recent slap when the European Parliament pressed recognition as a precondition for accession of Turkey into the EU. This whole debacle was sort of expected. Anything to keep Turkey out for just a few more years, but not scare it away completely. Holland likes to kiss behinds. They'll follow any higher up decision. In this case the EP's. But it's nice to have it on paper anyway, and to see that the whole chamber agreed. Doesn't happen very often.

[Siamanto]

[The following is an automatic translation using Systran. Siamanto.]

 

Under discussion the debate concerning the European summit is.

 

The deliberation is opened.

 

* N

 

Mr Van Baalen (VVD): President.

 

It is well that the Netherlands as a President of the Union attention

has asked for the mass assassination in the first world war on the

assyrians and the armenians. That is none Kopenhagen-criterium,

but that does not mean that it is very important that Turkey the

history looks at right in the face and a conciliatory gesture makes.

 

Mr Rouvoet (Christian Union): You say correct that it none

Kopenhagen-criterium are. You say however also that it is very

important. Of how large importance is it for your fractie? The

European Parliament has adopted about this resolutions, which mean

that it is a condition. Does this question for you weigh how heavily?

What do does your fractie if that gesture is not made and the

history no right is done, to in onderwijsboekjes?

 

Mr Van Baalen (VVD): It is no criterion for starting the

negotiations. In the general consultation I have however already

indicated that the Dutch government must go, also when them no

President of the Union more is about this continuously in conversation

with the Turkish government. The government must constantly insist

that Turkey steps in by our desired direction puts. I think then for

example of scientific research, conferences and discussions with

people concerned.

In short: Turkey must do look at and try everything the history in the

eyes achieve propitiation. It is however none separate

Kopenhagen-criterium, nor for concluding the negotiations, nor for

starting of it.

 

Mr Rouvoet (Christian Union): Means this that Vvd-fractie

consider it conceivable that a country toetreedt to the European

Union that on a point if genocide does no right to its own history and

that in vague late?

 

 

Mr Van Baalen (VVD): We are glad that also Austria has recognised

its role in the history, but that was not yet the case then Austria

joined the European Union. We are also glad that Romania has

recognised the share of the Rumanian government in the holocaust, but

this has just happened at the end of the complete process of

accession. In other words: it be if would appreciate very Turkey these

takes steps, but Vvd-fractie do not link it with the criteria for

the beginning or the end of the negotiations.

 

The lord carpenters (PvdA): President. I agree with the analysis of

Mr Van Baalen concerning the Armenian question. That question has

remained underexposed in the conclusions of the European Council. A

number of members of has in avance, however, indicated the European

Council and the Dutch government that to that large behang was been

attached. Someone who wants determine component of a European value

community must peace has with its own past, among which also the black

pages of that past. That is not in all Member States of the European

Union 100% the case. Every country has its own haunts and is own black

pages which for everyone difficult are in clean come along.

It the Rumanians has succeeded by means of a commission of historians

come to a appreciatie of the role of the Rumanian government at the

holocaust and there heavy and difficult take off conclusions.

Datzelfde has also succeeded concerning the communist past in

totalitarian regimes in centrally - and Eastern-European countries. It

then also must is able succeed in Turkey what concerns the role of the

Turks at the Armenian genocide in 1915. I repeats the word of Orhan

Pamuk about that. He says: it is this way painful for the Turks

because it is this way allied with the ontstaansgeschiedenis of the

modern Turkish state, but painful page also this we Turks under eyes

must see. I am that with him once.

I think that the EU on that point its good services must offer to

Turkey because eventually the propitiation with its own history is a

matter of a people himself. That cannot be enforced with the knife on

the throat from outside. That from the people must be also carried. We

can offer our good services thereby.

My fractie makes care concerning schijnbare relative freedom

with which is stepped in the conclusions concerning the problem of the

ICTI. THE ICTI are not satisfied with cooperation. I adopt that

we do not will negotiate with Croatia if the Yugoslavia tribunal says

that the collaboration of the Croatian authorities is insufficient.

 

The lord lords (LPF): Is it concerning Croatia thus not reasonable

to a people give the chance in clean to touch with its own past? We

will negotiate with Croatia just like we with Turkey have are done.

What is the difference between the Balkans and the Armenian genocide?

 

The lord carpenters (PvdA): The difference is that there in the

case of Croatia spoke of culprits to war crime which walks around

still and against which a detection command has been spent by an

internationally recognised tribunal. The government who is responsible

for extraditing that suspected cooperates according to the court

insufficiently in the extradition. The daders of the Armenian

genocide no longer walk around. If they would run still round, I the

first would be say that they had be traced and for a tribunal had be

brought. Those lieden have long died however unfortunately already

complete.

 

The lord lords (LPF): That is I with you once. Doesn't it concern

the time of the launching of the negotiations? Solved in the case of

Turkey and also of other accession negotiations they problems always

werkendeweg. We also werkendeweg with Croatia to agreement are

able attain. That misses I. You are strict compared with Croatia. That

is correct. I am it once with that. I miss that with respect to

Turkey.

 

The lord carpenters (PvdA): That is not I with you once. The

demands which the EU makes now to Turkey, also in the field of human

rights and before it is started there with negotiate, are stricter

than the demands which have been made for the start of the

negotiations to the ten Member States which have been since May 2004

member of the EU.

 

The lord lords (LPF): President. What has been agreed concerning

the Armenian question, concerning the recognition of the genocide? In

Brussels it remained ominous quiet.

The hr Rouvoet I feel decency concerning the missed chance in

the Council conclusions of discussing the Armenian question. In

interrupties I have here already on former. In this chamber is

there frequently concerning said and the European Parliament has made

of this a condition for accession, but is been silent in the Council

conclusions about this. How can she indicate the government in the

period up to the effective beginning of the negotiations will go? I

can adopt that it will come up for discussion at the development of

Council conclusion 23 concerning the intensive political and cultural

dialogue.

 

Turkey should be taken as a full member of the European family, then

the border with Armenia a European external border will be. It is not

only in the interest of the surviving dependants of the Armenian

genocide, but in the interest of European stability that this dark

chapter can be also concluded. In a resolution which has been adopted

on 15 December last in the European Parliament, becomes Turkey

requested promote the propitiation process with the Armenian people by

recognising the genocide on the Armenians. In the general

consultation of last week minister Bot indicated that he found that

Turkey must come by accession to the European Union with itself in

clean on this area. Does the minister aim here on the explicit Turkish

recognition of the genocide on the armenians?

 

Does a task see the minister for the EU stepping put aside to put to

reach a propitiation between armeniërs and Turks and, if so, is

there a timetable for this process? Believes the minister with us that

there for, starts 3 October 2005 of the actual negotiations, progress

must be booked on this file? We have there in the general consultation

concerning said that this subject did not have be incorporated in the

Council conclusions because this hampers the matter, but to let be it

a continuously subject of conversation. Has progress been achieved in

that conversation?

 

 

During the same general consultation many pleaded explicitly with me

for attention for the Armenian genocide. I observe that after two

years discussion concerning Assyrian and Armenian question now a

majority in the House of Commons speaks of the genocide of 1915. that

a step in the good direction is. It is important that the outlined

majority keeps busy on Turkey and the EU in score. In the Council

conclusions no attention is therefore given to this question. We want

know which appointments have made the EU about this with Turkey. It is

a continuously subject of conversation, as the minister said.

 

 

* N

 

The lord of of the Staaij (SGP): President. It is notable that

sensitive questions such as the position of religious minorities, the

position of the Christians, but also the recognition of the Armenian

genocide and of Cyprus or at the most camouflaged to retrieve be in

the Council conclusions. I dovetail myself those who have asked what

has been discussed exactly concerning the Armenian genocide. That is

an important point. We have not indicated that genocide rather as

zomaar a historical question, but as a lake tired test for the way

Turkey handles its history and for the way the freedom of opinion

expression in that country functions.

 

The lord Duyvendak (greenness-left): Sir the President. The

fractie of greenness-left is attached also very to the recognition

of the Armenian question. I gladly connect myself at the words of Mr

Van Baalen and of of the Staaij about this.

I gladly get a response of the government to further course of this

debate.

 

 

Minister Balkenende:

 

Mr Van Bommel has made an observation concerning paragraph 20 and

involving the international legal agencies at border disputes. We have

had about this well consultation with Greece. Becomes also there as a

matter of fact recognised that numerous improvements have been already

reached. There are from time to time still difficulties. That has been

marked and for this reason it is this way formulated.

 

 

Minister Bot: Sir the President. The Armenian question has also been

during the previous AO exhaustive under discussion. We have there

with Turkey - and an other time concerning said. In Turkey a

commencement has been really made, again under very of the European

Union, with the research. There its files opened and its commissions

appointed there. That was two, three years suffered still total

unthinkable. You could not even the subject or name the name or you

got already "no". On the moment are open they and recognise they that

this is a problem that must be solved.

They not only recognise that this genocide question in the a or other

manner must be brought in clean, but they realise also that the matter

goes further, because they border to Armenia, with which an agreement

must be reached. This proves - and other time how important it is that

we embed Turkey in the European Union to ensure that such conflicts

are removed, we can which exercise continuously very and that they

prepared to be listen and in a reasonable political dialogue

reasonable solutions to reach.

 

 

Second period *

 

 

Mr Rouvoet (Christian Union): President.

 

Mr Rouvoet (Christian Union): My fundamental nonsuit does not mean

that I present next motion to the chamber concerning the Armenian

genocide.

 

* M.

 

The chamber,

 

heard the deliberation,

 

observing that the European Council has decided, at meeting on 16 and

17 December 2004 in Brussels, the start of the accession negotiations

with Turkey by 3 October 2005;

 

observing that the European Council in its conclusions has fixed that

with Turkey an intensive political and cultural dialogue is

contracted, where also the civil society is involved, in order to

improve the reciprocal term by bringing together conclusion (23 people)

of opinion that is linked with that inextricable a honest ambulatory

with its own history of an applicant country; the government requests

within the framework of this dialogue with Turkey continuously and

expressly bring up the recognition of the Armenian genocide,

 

and proceeds to the order of the day.

 

The President: This motion has been presented by the members

Rouvoet, Van Bommel, of of the Staaij, of of the alley, Van

Baalen, lords, Duyvendak and Wilders. She gets no. 270

(21501-20).

 

Mr Van Bommel (SP): President. I can short be, because it has

been spoken by the government concerning all points. A number of

points wants I however still mark, because I have emphasised them in

my first period this way.

What concerns the border problems of Turkey, the minister-president

has only spoken concerning Greece. I Cyprus still himself has called,

but it speaks for itself that that question is involved. My question

was actual: countries there is more where those border problems a role

could play? I gladly receive then still answer in second period. The

motion of the Christian Union concerning Armenia I have most

supported, because it is a point that I myself also always have made

on behalf of Sp-fractie. It is a continuously subject of

conversation. To let we about that clear be compared with Turkey: we

expect something of this country on that point.

 

 

Minister Bot: President. I consider motion which Mr has submitted

Rouvoet, indeed as a support for the existing policy. For this

reason I welcome her. Mr Rouvoet requests the government within the

framework of the dialogue with Turkey bring up the recognition of the

Armenian genocide. I suggest you to request within the framework of

this dialogue stimulate the government that Turkey with Armenia in a

more intensive manner speak concerning the Armenian genocide of 1915

or words of that scope. Then it becomes for Turkey easier still more

positive this contract discussion. I repeat that this motion supports

our policy and that we welcome its as such.

 

 

Mr Rouvoet (Christian Union): In response to this suggestion I

notice that me has not escaped that the Minister for Foreign Affairs

in its first period has said it and an other one what Turkey to this

must repeat. This motion of the parliament underlines that need. The

parliament asks there in commission with the Dutch government for that

Netherlands this point in the coming years expressly on the agenda

keeps. The minister can interpret this according to the scope which

has the motion in my eyes. I think that we have no difference of

opinion.

 

Minister Bot: Thanks you, however.

 

The deliberation is closed.

 

 

The President: Concerning the given notice of motions at the end of

the meeting it is vanavond voted.

 

 

Poll

 

To the order the polls concerning motions, have been submitted in the

debate concerning the European summit, namely know:

- motie-Rouvoet the c.s. concerning bring up of the Armenian

genocide within the framework of the dialogue with Turkey (21501-20,

no. 270); 272).

 

(To see meeting of present.)

 

The President: I give occasion to giving voice statements in advance.

 

In poll come motie-Rouvoet the c.s. (21501-20, no. 270).

 

The President: I observe that this motion has been unanimously

adopted.

**

[Sasun]

Sasun, you guys are one of the first to know Does that compensate?

style_images/master/snapback.png

It compensates somewhat, but not fully

[Sasun]

I think we (Armenia and the Armenian communities worldwide) should cash in at this moment, rather than expect Turkey to be rejected from the EU. We have no control on that. So the best we can do is play with the rare weekness of the situation between us and Turkey and cash in trying to get concessions somehow. Or else it happened before that we have been disillusioned by Europe. It may possibly come to a similar situation where the EU admits Turkey and forgets about the existence of Armenians at all. In other words, resolution 16 may turn out to be a 61 (or was it another number? never mind)

[shaunt]

So what real consequences does this have?