Why Have Kids?

[Armen]

Shiner,did you get an answer yet?

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Yup, this is a typical Shiner thread. I think he's very cunning person. He always comes up with some QUESTION and waits until the thread becomes some 7 or 8 pages to say something like: "hey, you people are smart".

To summerize: Shiner-e mer bolori glukhe SHINUM A

Edited October 16, 2004 by Armen

[Anileve]

In terms of instincts that effectively makes us animals.

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Now it just highlights our similarity, the desire for excess is what "effectively makes us" humans, although not necessarily more intelligent. Our instinctual tendencies tell us that we must propagate as animals do. Our desire to excersice the defficiency and excess is what allows us to chose, I'd like to live up to my human potential.

[Armen]

Now it just highlights our similarity, the desire for excess is what "effectively makes us" humans, although not necessarily more intelligent.

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By this you're saying that a corporate boss who wants to screw the whole company to get a higher margin of returns is the universal human being, although not necessarily more intelligent. You're basically going against YOUR every value that you have manifested until now.

[Armen]

Of course, one can define it operationally as "search for meaning outside of insatiable and ever-accelerating material ends and wants", to make it always conform to Armen's statements.

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Thanks for clarifing that TB.

[Azat]

I never meant to imply that if one doesn't want to have kids it wasn't fine.

It is what it is...I just can't comprehend it I said.

 

I still say not having kids is a sellfish concept.

And to each his own.

 

I guess one can't understand having a child with someone you love if  the union of marriage seems 'abnormal' anyways.

Time will tell.

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I agree with you Maral. But I think it goes both ways. Some who have kids do it for selfish reasons and some who dont do it for selfish reasons.

 

I am in that last category. I want the world to revolve around Azat and not some spoiled brat who is going to spend every penny of my retirement money and make me work till I am 110 years old.

 

I have made that decision in my life that I cannot pursuit a life long partnership with a female who may at some point want to have children It is not for me. Maybe very shallow but for this I want to be shallow

[Azat]

For the life of me I can't think of a legitimate enough reason to have kids...but I love every exhausting minute of it!

 

But how can you resist them????

Just look at her!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 

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Maralchik, your baby looks like a little angel. She is so cutttttteeeeeee. You just want to grab her chicks and say "ponch"

[Maral]

Maralchik, your baby looks like a little angel.  She is so cutttttteeeeeee.  You just want to grab her chicks and say "ponch"

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'ponch'?que???

[Azat]

ask Eve. she will explain

[gevo27]

Good question, I debate with people over this subject constantly. I personally don't have an obsession with having kids. If I have them ok, if I don't oh well, much more traveling and a decent figure prevail. In fact I don't see anything wrong with adopting a child if you feel like you must have one. The world is already overly populated the fate of our civilization no longer depends on reproduction. I feel like some people want to have children because it is the right thing to do to achieve success in our standard society. You want someone to play with get a dog.

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Thats a good arguement, and presents a question now. You said if you want a kid, you can even adopt one, which is perfectly fine, I do not believe the physical process of giving brith, then taking care of your baby is any more "special" than adopting a kid and then caring for it. SO, with that said, you also said that people have kids because "it is the right thing to do"//// Ok, if it is wrong for people to haev kids "because its the right thing to do" then why would you care enough to adopt one? I think there lies a deeper cause for having kids, regardless of how much yo enjoy life materialistically speaking, i think that in the end, all people adore kids, and like to have offsrping, NOT because it is the right thing to do, or for pro-creation, but because there is somethign more to it than that.. what it is, i suppose we can give it a few names, such as, "the longing for loving a child" or "seeing your child grow" or"accepting and being pride of your 'accomplishments'"... anywho, what im trying to say is, that yes one does not need to give birth to experiance with a child what a mother who has given birth experiances, such as with an adopted child, but also that, what is it exactly that makes people want to have kids? For me, i love kids, and plan to have atleast a couple, and honestly i would even consider adopting if we needed to. But, why do i, or anyone else want to have kids? Maybe the answer to such a question will make it more clear as to why we want to/should have kids.

[gevo27]

We are going into an argument of egoism. Having kids is a selfish concept: You want a dog, you like dogs, it makes you feel special and embodies you with feelings you haven't experienced before. To keep the feeling alive you reward it with care and sacrifice. It's still selfish.

 

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You didnt really get into this, But James Rachel has tried to argue, unsuccesfully, how everything you do is eventually for selfish reasons. But, this is a flawed argument in that it tries to speculate what the heart/mind of a person feels, at any act of a person. And, thats not very possible now is it? I mean, is everytign yo do only for yourself....????

[DominO123]

You didnt really get into this, But James Rachel has tried to argue, unsuccesfully, how everything you do is eventually for selfish reasons. But, this is a flawed argument in that it tries to speculate what the heart/mind of a person feels, at any act of a person.  And, thats not very possible now is it?  I mean, is everytign yo do only for yourself....????

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And that would mean wanting to have kids is not selfish?

[Armat]

I think every period and event in life has its meaning and importance in terms of being a set of crucial experiences that every human being should go through, haveing children being one of them. Cosider that as a model life, which, though, has some deviations, meaning that not haveing children does not make you a non-human. However, all these events, like marrige, haveing your children married, seeing them to have children are all important experiences.

 

 

Also, I feal that Armenians must have more children.

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I agree,In my case I remember before even being married I wanted someone very dear close to me to love.As I got married that feeling got even stronger.I love my kids and I can't imagine my life without them since everything I do now has something to do with them.I guess deep down life is about sharing and what's more fun then sharing it with people who love you back.I guess it also has something to do with my childhood which in my family was anything but normal...

[Stormig]

That is a legitimate view of life.  As luck has it, it also corresponds to "genes" (read character traits) that are best left unpropagated.  Too bad about other "genes" (traits) chained to them that are worth propagating.

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I think like that sometimes, about myself, but I've seen people (mostly guys) who are still like adolescents well into their 30's, and in the great scheme (or scam) of things it really makes no difference. We're headed toward doom.

[Stormig]

You didnt really get into this, But James Rachel has tried to argue, unsuccesfully, how everything you do is eventually for selfish reasons. But, this is a flawed argument in that it tries to speculate what the heart/mind of a person feels, at any act of a person.  And, thats not very possible now is it?  I mean, is everytign yo do only for yourself....????

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Come to think of it, the genes argument ties in with instinct, and so maybe it might not be that selfish to mate and eventually give birth. But the "couple" that would "mate" would be cave-dwellers with no speech or something, so a couple in nice suits meeting for lunch at a mall today and saying "I want children" is not nearly the same thing. What is universal and not selfish is risking your life for your kids in dangerous situations, that sort of thing. That is something that can't be helped.

And who is James Rachel anyway?

I refer you to Sam Vaknin's articles - http://www.theallineed.com/family/family-035.htm

and

http://www.authorsden.com/visit/viewarticl...ID=161&id=14493

[Stormig]

I'm not ready for kids yet, but the more I hang around them, the more I want them. Contradicting this is the relief I feel once I leave them. They might be fun for a few hours, but to have them around 24/7... Then again, maybe it's an age thing. I notice more and more girls getting their first kid in their early 30s or even mid-30s. I have a few more years Although I also think it has to do with having a partner. As long as you're single, you'll be less likely to think about kids or even want them, but maybe when you actually fall in love with "the one", you feel more inclined to have them.

 

Maybe there's also a difference between men and women. After all, it's the women who have to go through most of the (physical) trouble. Not all of us are looking forward to this. Not to mention the sleepless nights afterwards... It's so much easier being a man and wanting kids...

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My female relatives say that in fact the sleepless nights aren't as difficult as you think. Somehow you're programmed to go sleepless after you've given birth.

[Stormig]

I have a cousin in her mid 20's...that was her attitude all this time...she's on her way to getting her PHD,who needs to be married?who needs kids?I want to get my PHD and move to Armenia  etc etc etc,fabulous goals she has...the other day I get an email,she finally met the one and says how all she can think of is having little boys who look like him,and she thinks she's lost her mind    I had to read the email twice,couldn't believe it was her saying these things!

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Call the doctor, I say.

[Stormig]

Thats a good arguement, and presents a question now. You said if you want a kid, you can even adopt one, which is perfectly fine, I do not believe the physical process of giving brith, then taking care of your baby is any more "special" than adopting a kid and then caring for it. SO, with that said, you also said that people have kids because "it is the right thing to do"//// Ok, if it is wrong for people to haev kids "because its the right thing to do" then why would you care enough to adopt one?  I think there lies a deeper cause for having kids, regardless of how much yo enjoy life materialistically speaking, i think that in the end, all people adore kids, and like to have offsrping, NOT because it is the right thing to do, or for pro-creation, but because there is somethign more to it than that.. what it is, i suppose we can give it a few names, such as, "the longing for loving a child" or "seeing your child grow" or"accepting and being pride of your 'accomplishments'"... anywho, what im trying to say is, that yes one does not need to give birth to experiance with a child what a mother who has given birth experiances, such as with an adopted child, but also that, what is it exactly that makes people want to have kids? For me, i love kids, and plan to have atleast a couple, and honestly i would even consider adopting if we needed to. But, why do i, or anyone else want to have kids? Maybe the answer to such a question will make it more clear as to why we want to/should have kids.

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Gevo, have you been imitating yourself recently?

[Stormig]

x Repetition x Edited October 16, 2004 by Stormig

[Stormig]

I agree,In my case I remember before even being married I wanted someone very dear close to me to love.As I got married that feeling got even stronger.I love my kids and I can't imagine my life without them since everything I do now has something to do with them.

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Then there's also this that I've been thinking... Unfortunately I am very sensitive and fragile, or insecure and a narcissist (whatever), and even break-ups strain me a lot. Then I have a relative whose child died many years ago, and she can't remain alone at home or things like that because those days come back to haunt her. It's been nearly twenty years, yet whenever she's alone at home like when the maid is not around or she doesn't have guests, friends, family, etc., visiting, she rushes to go spend time with my mom. I've even come across her crying to my mom about it. All talk until that point is one thing, but the feelings you have afterwards are another. So, OK, people are going to tell me, what are the chances of losing a child? Not much, but I think I evaluate things and make snap decisions in terms of likely/unlikely and worth it/not worth it. This is not as easy to answer, but to think I'd be devastated when I could have had adventures or taken responsibility for my own failures, naw... And even if not devastated, imagine being worried about someone all the time. I'm good at snapping out of worrying for others, but I could fail miserably there and I'd be miserable myself, because the feelings would be too powerful.

So yeah, I don't feel I could commit to a child, or I don't want to, and I have yet to come to terms with the sight of our relative still crying over her dead child two decades later. A child is not like a lover or spouse, one goes, the other comes...

[Stormig]

Call the doctor, I say.

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Well, maybe I shouldn't say that. It wasn't the kids part, more the goals part I was thinking of. I had had some similar thoughts not too long ago - not quite similar, in that it was only after the break-up and being told after the break-up that marriage had been crossing the mind of the other. (Don't ask how he broke up from me, you wouldn't believe the incredible stupidity.) Hearing this, I was like, "What?? already?? Yuck! and why am I being told this now??" to myself. The next moment I was reminiscing a certain day when I met many of his family and relations, and how pretty I had thought his niece to be... Know how that goes? It hurt me even more to have been told that.

I wish for your cousin's sake, Maral, that she can be with someone who will share or at least accommodate her goals, instead of feeling she has to be a wife-queen and drop her ideals/dreams just like that. I had thought I could be accommodated, but it didn't work out. Oh well. Life goes on. More, newer adventures to come.

[Armen]

Then there's also this that I've been thinking... Unfortunately I am very sensitive and fragile, or insecure and a narcissist (whatever), and even break-ups strain me a lot. Then I have a relative whose child died many years ago, and she can't remain alone at home or things like that because those days come back to haunt her. It's been nearly twenty years, yet whenever she's alone at home like when the maid is not around or she doesn't have guests, friends, family, etc., visiting, she rushes to go spend time with my mom. I've even come across her crying to my mom about it. All talk until that point is one thing, but the feelings you have afterwards are another. So, OK, people are going to tell me, what are the chances of losing a child? Not much, but I think I evaluate things and make snap decisions in terms of likely/unlikely and worth it/not worth it. This is not as easy to answer, but to think I'd be devastated when I could have had adventures or taken responsibility for my own failures, naw... And even if not devastated, imagine being worried about someone all the time. I'm good at snapping out of worrying for others, but I could fail miserably there and I'd be miserable myself, because the feelings would be too powerful.

So yeah, I don't feel I could commit to a child, or I don't want to, and I have yet to come to terms with the sight of our relative still crying over her dead child two decades later. A child is not like a lover or spouse, one goes, the other comes...

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Don't want to jump forward of Armat, but ... what was this post all about Stormy. You're desperately seeking for a reason? Don't you see how vague and artificial you reason is?

[Stormig]

Don't want to jump forward of Armat, but ... what was this post all about Stormy. You're desperately seeking for a reason? Don't you see how vague and artificial you reason is?

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There is no reason. At least I'm not looking for a reason to have kids. In fact in my case/experience there are reasons to not have kids. Not only is there the common "I can't look after someone else" but I also have fears, which means something, because I'm not a scaredy-cat.

[Armen]

There is no reason. At least I'm not looking for a reason to have kids. In fact in my case/experience there are reasons to not have kids. Not only is there the common "I can't look after someone else" but I also have fears, which means something, because I'm not a scaredy-cat.

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Yeah, you have some realy good reasons <_<

[Stormig]

Yeah, you have some realy good reasons <_<

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I'm sharing my reasons, not stuffing them down someone else's throat. Do you prescribe someone who has fears to go against those fears? Not the most sound of advice since this is not a fear of dogs but a fear of children no, a fear of commitment, legit enough.

[Armen]

Do you prescribe someone who has fears to go against those fears?

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Yes, that's how you get cured. Stormy, many of these view points are no realy yours sometime. They just circulate there, become popular and you take them as granted. Like is popular to present youself as if you have fears of commitment because it is cool...