MJ Posted November 7, 2001 Report Share Posted November 7, 2001 Can we get back to good old days? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wh00t Posted November 7, 2001 Report Share Posted November 7, 2001 Looks like you've finally found your match, and you can't handle it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MosJan Posted November 7, 2001 Report Share Posted November 7, 2001 MJ jan mi qich "maqrutyan" kariq uni. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juggernaut Posted November 7, 2001 Report Share Posted November 7, 2001 quoteCan we get back to good old days? Like, when 'loudmouths' such as myself did not exist and your point of view never creadibly challenged? Dont you like being criticised, because I certainly like having my arguments pulled apart so that I could come closer to the 'truth'. Such is life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJ Posted November 7, 2001 Author Report Share Posted November 7, 2001 Jabbernuts, It seems like the foot-and-mouth desease is infectious. Why don't you closely look at yourself in the mirror and cry loudly. And, then, come back, and I'll try to comfort you saying something like "that's OK, sonny, you will graw up and and become less stupid. Just give some time." "?" do you also want a piece of it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThornyRose Posted November 7, 2001 Report Share Posted November 7, 2001 Perhaps it has less to do with who is now here? I think it has more to do with who no longer is here... Domino, Naira, Levon, etc...And Aghtchik and Kazza have been too scarce of late... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJ Posted November 7, 2001 Author Report Share Posted November 7, 2001 Actually, you are absolutely right, Thorny. There are apparently more than 400 registered members in our forum. Of these only some 15 are active. There is a question why? I think because many don't want to go down to the level of the loudmouths, and unlike some of us, decide that their joint coexistence in a forum with these guys is inexpedient. And they leave or keep silent, which creates vacuum to be filled with the "jabbernutses" and their opposite pole - the "Khodjas" of the world. That is the problem here, as I see it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThornyRose Posted November 7, 2001 Report Share Posted November 7, 2001 Maybe you have a point, MJ, but, as far as I know, Aghtchik and Kazza are too busy or something... Levon, we haven't heard from him since early June... And Naira busy posting elsewhere, perhaps?The know-it-alls (in my case, conservArtur, Jerky-vore, etc.) do not discourage me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kazza Posted November 7, 2001 Report Share Posted November 7, 2001 Hello! Thanks for the compliment Thorny! I agree, there were some other members before you came as well that were excellent, like Gayanne, Sulamita, and Pilaf head also. I know Tigrannes doesn't get along with everyone and he has some extreme veiws that I find offensive, but I like him and think he's a good memeber and has a lot to say. Mabye moderators sending them PM's or emails persuading them to be active again is an idea. But for real I've been busy latley. Other wise I would have spent a little more time to keep in touch. I've been busy working to earn a dime, and also worked my way up whle I was there which isn't bad. but I fear not for too long , because yesterday I walked in to work to collect my cheque for the month and found half the ppl working there! They have been laying a lot of people off and I thought thatwas just rumour. I haven't heard anythng yet but the smart thing to do is to keep looking IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThornyRose Posted November 7, 2001 Report Share Posted November 7, 2001 Credit where credit is due, sweetie. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted November 7, 2001 Report Share Posted November 7, 2001 MJ - While you may be correct (loudmouths being the cause of less active membership) - I think you should also consider that your own attitude has turned many off. Yes, most of those you chastise probably deserve it in some fashion - though I also see that you go after folks sometimes in a manner that is more harsh than deserved (IMO) - and this turns people off (not just those who you pick on). Sure there are plenty of numbskulls posting garbage that deserve to be thrashed - but there are plenty of others who might not have your mental capacity or who might just think differently then you do who you sometimes jump on. Khodja for instance. It is my opinion that he brings a great perspective (how is he any diferent or more offensive then Ara in your opinion?)and useful info. Sure you can disagree - and sure he has taken some digs at you - but don't you think this continued combating has gone on far too long? You both have plenty to offer the Armenian community - even if you fundementally disagree (politically)...your constant combat is turning folks off and doing the Armenian community a great diservice (IMO). Think about it. [ November 07, 2001: Message edited by: THOTH ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJ Posted November 7, 2001 Author Report Share Posted November 7, 2001 quote:Originally posted by THOTH:MJ -While you may be correct (loudmouths being the cause of less active membership) - I think you should also consider that your own attitude has turned many off. Yes, most of those you chastise probably deserve it in some fashion - though I also see that you go after folks sometimes in a manner that is more harsh than deserved (IMO) - and this turns people off (not just those who you pick on). Sure there are plenty of numbskulls posting garbage that deserve to be thrashed - but there are plenty of others who might not have your mental capacity or who might just think differently then you do who you sometimes jump on. Khodja for instance. It is my opinion that he brings a great perspective (how is he any diferent or more offensive then Ara in your opinion?)and useful info. Sure you can disagree - and sure he has taken some digs at you - but don't you think this continued combating has gone on far too long? You both have plenty to offer the Armenian community - even if you fundementally disagree (politically)...your constant combat is turning folks off and doing the Armenian community a great diservice (IMO). Think about it.[ November 07, 2001: Message edited by: THOTH ]Thoth,I will take your comments under consideration.Additionally, I have been absent from the forum for prolonged times. Has it helped the forum to “flourish?” If yes, I am ready to leave for good. Have only very brief comments at the time: you wouldn't see me attacking anyone personally, unless my personal space is violated. There are a lot of opinions that are alluded in this forum, which I disagree with, but I don't even participate in the discussions.One of the differences between "Ara" and "Hovhanness" is that Ara is trying to address (right or wrong) an issue of a national scale, while "Hovhaannes" is addressing his own issues. Besides, I haven't said that I have disagreed with everything he has said, right? Additionally, violating one's personal space is "Hovhannesses" favorite hobby. You may trace that he has been cordially greeted in this forum by me and has been so treated until he has started almost maniacally tracing me. I would appreciate if you could give me one example when I have jumped on somebody because of his thinking or opinions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khodja Posted November 7, 2001 Report Share Posted November 7, 2001 Martin, You do not understand the reasons for my catharsis. I am not alone in my alienation. Others much more famous and successful than myself have left the Armenian community in disgust. I have attempted to enlighten fellow Armenians by expressing the thoughts and feelings of these alienated Armenians. I could more easily just fade away and enjoy my life and forget about the Armenians totally. More and more of us would drift away from Armenia and the community. Eventually the Armenian community worldwide will be reduced to a small group of enforcers. Yerevan will become Irivan, a city of the vast Turkish empire stretching from Istambul to Tashkent, and Armenia would disappear from the face of the earth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted November 7, 2001 Report Share Posted November 7, 2001 MJ - don't get me wrong - I think you are a valuable asset to this forum and in general and I appreciate all of youreffort here and insights. I just think that you do not suffer fools gladly and you seem to feel challenged by others and seem to feel a need to assert yourself and your views vis a vis theirs. Of course, to some degree, this is why folks participate in these sort of forums - to spout off their views and put down those of others - so perhaps i am just holding you to a higher standard becuase I think you warrent it...Your row with Khodja (particualrly the seeming personal aspect to it) just doesn't do you or the forum ay good - IMO. I'm sorry if it seems that I only post to criticise you - and no I don't blame you for the knucklhead posters or such - but I like to think that those who merit respect (such as yourself) can at the same time show both humilty and good judgement - particualry with someone such as Khodja - whom I see as a distinct asset to this forum (and his issues seem to me to be far more then personal. Even his personl issues have some particular interest to me...as it sounds as though his family and mine may have known each other...?). I would have given him as the example you ask for (who you attack just for opinions & thoughts) - though honestly I cannot be sure that I caught any posts that actually started this whole fight off. (and I'm not sure I fully understand all the philosphical diffferences the two of you even have...I mean some/many of my best friends are Republican...and we seem to get along...) No matter - I don't think that who initiated is the point (like with Kurds/PKK versus Turkish armed forces) - its who carries on the fight when the fighting shoud be long over that matters (again IMO) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight Bark Posted November 7, 2001 Report Share Posted November 7, 2001 quote:Originally posted by MJ:... Ara is trying to address (right or wrong) an issue of a national scale...Dear MJ,You know that I respect your opinions and analyses. However, I have to disagree on "Ara". After reading enough of his verbal diarrhea over the years it became ovious that he only writes and cares about his ego. He completely misdiagnoses the root causes of Armenian problems. And his proposed "solution" (between the lines) is that Armenians as a distinct culture must cease to exist (no distinct nation --> no problem; simple isn't it?). There are so many logical and moral holes in his arguments that someone who actually has to make a living cannot address even a significant fraction of them. I tried to do that for a while in "Armenian Cafe" but I cannot keep up with the prodigious "writer" (cannot put enough quotation marks).Mr. Baliozian simply does not have the intellectual or spiritual depth to tackle the issues that he pontificates on. Consciously or not, he veers into an endless lamentation about a lost career that he so evidently never deserved. It's all about himself.Twilight Bark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pilafhead Posted November 7, 2001 Report Share Posted November 7, 2001 quote:Originally posted by MJ:Can we get back to good old days?The main reason I don't post anymore is because the discussions have pretty much gone over my head. A year ago there was more socializing going on. Not sure if the change is for the better or not. In any case, this being a public forum, it is what it is. It continues to evolve and that will not cease. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJ Posted November 7, 2001 Author Report Share Posted November 7, 2001 Thoth, I am going to reply to you in a slightly broad manner, which may be a little unexpected, I guess. 1. About me going “after folks sometimes in a manner that is more harsh than deserved:” Maybe so. I have been in this forum for more than a year, now. Have posted some 3800 or more posts (last time I checked), of which perhaps some 1000-1500 are just materials from other online sites. It leaves me with some 2300-2800 materials of my own, which is perhaps still more intensive than anybody else’ participation. Now add to the top of it that the views I express are not “conventional” in most of the cases for a “conventional” brainwashed Armenian, though these are the most conventional for those who stand or have stood close to the foundations of the Armenian Statehood and its ideals. They clearly invite a lot of resentment from a lot of “accidental Armenians,” I mean the ethnics. Therefore, it is easy to figure out, I think, that I would receive more resentment than anybody else in this forum. I have no problems who would contradict me with qualified arguments. You are saying that some don’t have adequate mental capacity. So what do I do. I have tried to train them. If you think of it, Thorny , The Cat and Ali also train them. Thanks, guys. But some don’t grow. Now, if they don’t have the capacity, let them stay “home.” The Armenian issue is very complex. What our dilettantes do is to inflict more harm to it and tangle it more. I wish the dilettantes where just in this forum. The tragedy is that they are in any single aspect of Armenian life. Now, had I infinite patience, I would just try over and over. But I have gotten tired, and feel some “fatigue,” as I have mentioned before. Here is what I can say: I will exercise the rule of three strikes, i.e. will let it go twice, but the third time, one enters my personal space – will shot without warning – no hostages; 2. Since you have mentioned “Hovhannes.” I also think that he has some good perspectives on some issues. I don’t see much difference in what he says in some aspects of life from what I have advocated for about two decades, now. But there are two major (I will neglect the minor ones) aspects of his behavior that are just repugnant. One is his obsession with “genetics.” His politicization of the issue is not much different from the nazi attitude towards genetics. I understand that his motivations may be quite the opposite, but nevertheless what he preaches is as repugnant as what the Nazis do. (On the level of argumentations, his arguments don’t hold water. But this is a different story). The second aspect of his behavior which is repugnant to me is his substandard ethical norms in terms of characterizing his opponents. For example, if you go and read his first posting in this forum, you can see that he entered the forum as a polarizing figure. He has received very little attention on such capacity, but he keeps going on – he has decided to fight the lost fights of his life here in the forum. The question is with whom? First, with people who are not represented in this forum. For example, he may dig up some dirt from someone’s life and publicize here. He may mention names in this forum and start criticizing them, when these people are not represented here, nor anybody has even heard their names. And since there are no people that he could easily fight with his Partisan primaries limited toolbox, in the best spirit of his mother party he would start defining his opponent within parameters, which would allow him to demonize his opponent. Then he can (he hopes) score a home-run. It was obvious that he is a low level partisan functionary even way before he confessed it. His tactics were very transparent. After all, what school has he gone through? Remember the “Mediscare” campaign of his “Mother Party?” Like this “demon Dole is going to cut the medical and social security benefits of the elderly?” That is the same game he plays here, very frequently. Another example – he may attack his opponent because he is from Georgia or Texas. As if him being in Hawaii qualifies him as a starfish. And it is repugnant. If he had arguments, I would’ve appreciated them. My bottom line is that he is exercising dirty tactics here. Another thing. You ask how is he different from Ara. He is very different from Ara. While I agree with many of facts that Ara gives, I strongly disagree with his perspectives and his understanding of the causes of our problems and his solutions, if any. But have you seen me even argue with Ara? Why do you think? His seniority? I think “Hovhannes” is about the same age as Ara. Ara expresses his views as he sees life. You may agree with him, and you may disagree. But have you ever seen Ara going personal? 3. About “Republicans and Democrats.” Your comment was most irrelevant and misplaced. True, I have been of true Republican views in my life – be it in Armenia or in the US. But I have never been partisan nor have had any respect for partisanship. True, I have never voted for a Democrats. Haven’t seen a single one within my voting space, who I would’ve considered deserving my vote (I select my representatives on the basis of their persona more than anything else). You are saying there are a lot of Republican around you or you have a lot of such friends? Who cares? Does it occur to you that I don’t have a lot of Democrat friends, or I give a damn if one is Republican or Democrat? Or does it occur to you that I don’t have a lot of leftist friends? Is this what you think the disputes are around? If yes, I have to say that your perception of me is due to your own prism through which you look at the world and not due to what or who I represent. 4. About me trying to assert myself in this forum or competing with other. It is not the first time you say this, so it should be that you truly believe in it. I’ll be brief in this respect. If given my age and where I am in my life, I have to come to the Internet or to the Hye Forum to assert myself, I would rather commit suicide for failing so miserable in my life. 5. My constant combat is a retaliation. I have spoken about it before. Am I happy about it? Not at all. But as I have said, if people like you create vacuum, I find myself in a position of constantly combating so that this forum also doesn’t become one of those which you are familiar with. I have to go, now. People are waiting for me for dinner. Would address the rest of the addresses to me later tonight, if my head is clear. 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MJ Posted November 7, 2001 Author Report Share Posted November 7, 2001 Dear Twilight Bark, First thank you for the nice words. I have regularly read the postings in Armenian Cafe in the past. Haven't done so for months, now. I have posted there only once - under the name of a "Fly-by-night visitor," which I hope would be indicative for the intrigued reader to learn my intentions, there. I did it just because I couldn't take any further some of the nonsense and misinformation spread by Nastrodamus, though used to agree with many of his perspectives, in general. I have no guess which one of the Armenian Cafe members you are. As far as Ara, is concerned, I think my perspective on Ara's thoughts is clear from above. However I have to say that I have a very positive and respectful view of Ara, even though as mentioned above, disagree with many of his perspectives. I would also like to appeal to you to come up with a shorter online name. Otherwise it is a little bit burdensome to address you each time as "Twilight Bark." How about TB? Hope you understand me correctly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight Bark Posted November 7, 2001 Report Share Posted November 7, 2001 Dear MJ, The moniker TB is fine. I had considered shortening it before, but it sounded like the short for tuberculosis, so I refrained from doing that. As for the Armenian Cafe, after a period of death, it came back to life with most of the old regulars gone. I did not post there before its re-birth (well, maybe one). It is not terribly active, other than news posts, silly jokes, and simple-minded chauvinistic blurbs. There are occasional pearls, though. Also, for a while I dissected Ara Baliozian's posts there, which are the same as the ones here. I also had a civilized discourse with a "visiting" Turk (who was capable of civil conversation but easily enraged by chauvinists to show his nationalistic colors). Anyway, I will not try to change your feelings about Mr. Baliozian. My feelings about him can be approximated as "pity". I hope you don't mind if I dissect some of his writings every now and then. TB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juggernaut Posted November 7, 2001 Report Share Posted November 7, 2001 quoteWhy don't you closely look at yourself in the mirror and cry loudly. And, then, come back, and I'll try to comfort you saying something like "that's OK, sonny, you will graw up and and become less stupid. Just give some time." I see its back to the insults, and according to you and I quote: quoteyou wouldn't see me attacking anyone personally, unless my personal space is violated. So I hope you wouldnt mind explaining where in my post did I 'violate your personal space'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juggernaut Posted November 7, 2001 Report Share Posted November 7, 2001 And just replying to some of the criticism directed at me on this thread by other members. If you dont agree with me, then post your opinion and dont wait untill later and accuse me of 'turning off other forumers'. Nevertheless if the moderators so wish, I will no longer post on political matters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khodja Posted November 7, 2001 Report Share Posted November 7, 2001 Martin, I have FINALLY suceeded in smoking you out of your cave. Thank you for "coming clean." Perhaps now we can discuss issues without any subtrefuge on your part. I have been "up front" about my associations from the beginning. FYI, I have voted for Republicans many times and have much respect for many of that party, despite being a Democrat. Some of my relatives are prominent in that party. But I am TOTALLY opposed to the "take no prisoners" approach of those who now control the Republicans. You can not unify a nation with that type of approach. A war can unify a country in foreign affairs but as the results in VA and NJ show, it won't work domestically. Bloomberg won in NYC, as Guiliani has won previously. But both would be anathema to the right-wing Republicans. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khodja Posted November 7, 2001 Report Share Posted November 7, 2001 P.S. to my last message. My comments would also reflect Armenia. I TOTALLY agree with Kocharyan's attempts to include Tashnaks in his government. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harut Posted November 7, 2001 Report Share Posted November 7, 2001 quote:Originally posted by MosJan:MJ jan mi qich "maqrutyan" kariq uni.poshetstsich@ dzerks em arnelu u saghin kashem.-----iskapes, es inch a darel? Mos jan, es shabat-kiraki mets "maqrutyun" unes anelu. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJ Posted November 8, 2001 Author Report Share Posted November 8, 2001 quote:Originally posted by khodja:Martin,I have FINALLY suceeded in smoking you out of your cave. Thank you for "coming clean." Perhaps now we can discuss issues without any subtrefuge on your part. I have been "up front" about my associations from the beginning.FYI, I have voted for Republicans many times and have much respect for many of that party, despite being a Democrat. Some of my relatives are prominent in that party. But I am TOTALLY opposed to the "take no prisoners" approach of those who now control the Republicans. You can not unify a nation with that type of approach. A war can unify a country in foreign affairs but as the results in VA and NJ show, it won't work domestically. Bloomberg won in NYC, as Guiliani has won previously. But both would be anathema to the right-wing Republicans.Thoth,I hope that you can understand me better in this particular matter, now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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