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LOL well rubo, i got to go man. I don't mean to embarrass you anymore, but for sake of not giving you a chance to change the suject, 1000+1 time i have to repeat... in our democracy, armenians, will unite with the same cause to build a strong future. today's priority is the economy and the defense of our borders. tomorrow we'll changed it to somethign elses by knowing, that we are united and we are cutting the loses.

here we go again, when rubo fails to prove his point, he starts to get personal and insult people. he started from a single question about where I see MJ mentioning about the same cause and the future, and take a look where he is now. LOL

rubo, don't be offended, but you are reapeating the same statements that i made. i told you, you better admit that you were wrong. i kept saying the same thing over and over... the priorities(the passengers) might chage, but the cause(the car) could be the same. the cause(the car) is there to provide a service. a service for a common cause. the passengers(the priorities) might change, but not the cause.

rubo, are you truly that (...)??? well, you sound just like a child who belives that he can reach to the sky if only he could fly. when you are told that we can be united, just take a time to think about it instad of posting one nonsense after another. armenians can be united to build a "strong country" and "a great future" today we might unite to build a "much better" educational system(not that we have a weak one...) tomorrow the priorities might change and we all can be united to build a strong economy do you see now that the priorities might change but never the desire of being united around the same couase...which in this case would be to have a strong country.

and one more thing for you. don't you see now that you are already contradicting yourself. first you claim "what is today's cause is tomorrow's passe" then you speak of a democracy. for the God's sake, look in the dictionary and learn how democracy is defined. when people are united around a cause, that is itself a democracy.

rubo, you are doing it again. you keep changing the subject. "transitory concepts" got noting to do with the people uniting and building a future. from time to time the priorities might change, but never the desire of being united around a cause. why don't you now admit that you been proven wrong and why don't stop playing cut and mouse, huh?

ps, did i say catting...i meant cutting.

first of all, i don't need to prove anyting to this forum. the talk is between you and I-and for some reason, you keep catting corners and changing the subject. for the sake of making you happy, here is the answer to your question "...I would like to restate that unity doesn't just happen. It happens around some "cause" or an overwhelming ides..." "To me(...), the only unity that can be established is around the aspirations for the future of the Republic of Armenia." do you know now what logic means? the man was talks about "the cause" and "aspiration for the future". cause is defined in a dictionary as an aim, purpose, reason, objective, object, motivation, principle...

i have yet to follow your footsteps and find the answer in my dream. in a mean time, come down from the 7th heaven, and learn that people use logic in communicating with each other.

no rubo, i truly think that you need to see a doctor. to look for a black cat in a dark room may be your way of solving problems, but when i ask a question, i expect an answer before i am challenged with another group of childish questions.

WHO THE HELL IS THIS rubo CHARACHER, AFTER ALL!?! HE RUNS AROUND CALLING PEOPLE NAMES AND PLAYING A JUDGE FOR US. I second with you MJ. Unity must come with sharing the same values that will lead us to build a future.

LONG LIVE THE FREE REPUBLIC OF ARTSAK. LET THE AZERI-TURKISH JUNTAS LEARN THAT WE, THE YOUNGER GENERATION OF ARMENIANS, WILL NO LONGER TOLEARATE ANY KIND OF AGRESSION AND WE WILL NOT MAKE THE SAME MISTAKES THAT OUR GRAND-GRAND FATHERS MADE. WHAT BELONGS TO US, WILLL ALWAYS BE DEFENDED!!!

The operations of Azerbaijan's orgkom copelled the people of Nagorno Karabagh to take steps toward the restoration of their self-government. Elections for its National Assembly took place in 1989. The situation changed in the summer of 1991. On August 30, Soviet Azerbaijan's Supreme Soviet adopted its "Declaration on re-establishment of the national independence of the Azerbaijani Republic." This act heralded the process of Azerbaijan's indpendence from the USSR. Four days later Nagorno Karabagh, in compliance with international and domestic Soviet law, initiated the same process through the joint adoption of the "Declaration of the Republic of Nagorno Karabagh" by the local legislative councils of Nagorno Karabagh and the bordering Armenian-populated Shahumian district. The only difference was that, for Artsax, independence was declared not from the Soviet Union but from Azerbaijan. This act fully complied with existing law. Indeed, the 1990 Soviet law "On the procedures for a Union Republic to leave the USSR," particularly Articles 1, 3, 4, 6, 7, 8, 12 and 19, provides that the secession of a Soviet republic from the body of the USSR allows an autonomous region in the same republic's territory also to trigger its own process of independence and decolonization. On October 18, 1991, the Azerbaijani Republic confirmed its independence by adoption of its "Constitutional Act" on national independence, and on November 23 of the same year annualled Karabagh's autonomy. Based on this and the aforemmentioned law on secession, Nagornyy Karabagh on December 10 held its own referendum on independence in the presence of international observers and media representatives. The vote overwhelmingly approved Karabagh's sovereignty, with 82.2 percent of Karabagh's registered voters participating in the elections, and 99.89 percent of those casting ballots supporting its independence from the already seceded Republic ofAzerbaijan. The actions of Nagorno Karabagh, which at that time was part of a still existent Soviet Union, corresponded fully with the relevant Soviet law on leaving the USSR. It was the only autonomous gegion of the Soviet empire which gained independence, not only by virtue of international law, but under domestic Soviet legislation as well. As part of its path to full sovereignty, the newly-independent Nagorno Karabagh Republic created legitimate government institutions. On December 27, 1991, elections took place for its parliament, and on January 6, 1992, the newly-convened parliament of Karabagh adopted its Declaration of Independence on the basis of the referendum results. On September 20, 1992, the body petitioned the United Nations, the Commonwealth of Indpendent States, and individual countries for recognition of the Nagnornyy Karabagh Republic. In March 1994, parliament adopted a resolution establishing the post of president of the republic. From 1991 to 1994, the government of Nagornyy Artsax laid the basis for the security and viability of the republic. The Karabagh Army of Defense, having been formed against the background of joint Soviet and Azerbaijani militry operations, successfully broke Baku's blockade in 1992 by opening the Lachin Corridor to Armenia and the world. Subseqently, in response to Azerbaijan's incessant military strikes against civilian population centers and it soccupation of northern Karabagh, the armed forces in 1993 took control of Kelbajar, Agdam and other strongholds to solve the problem of security through defensible borders. In so doint it safeguareded Karabagh's territory from external agression and prevented a tragic repetition of history. This clearly was a case of ractive, occasionally preemptive, self-defense.

ARMENIAN TV INTERVIEWS U.S. OBSERVERS OF Artsax POOLS PUBLIC TELEVISION OF ARMENIA 11 August 2002 YEREVAN ...Good evening Artur. Please, you are on the air. Correspondent: I would like to give you some information. We have been in some districts of the NKR, in Stepanakert, Shushi Susa, Martuni, and Khodzhaly, which is now called Ivanyan. I invited to the studio today international observers whose opinions are important if we take into consideration who these people are and whom they are representing. My guests are U.S. Congressmen, Democrats Lloyd Dogget and Frank Pallone. Good evening and thank you for accepting my invitation. My first question to you is; where have you been and what are your impressions of the elections? Frank Pallone: Well, the impressions are very good. I always compare the experience in the United States and am proud of the way democracy is practised and functions in the U.S. . And the elections I saw are quite like those in the U.S. . There was more enthusiasm and people who turned out than what I saw in my home city of New Jersey. We went to several polling stations in Stepanakert and we went also to Nigi Camiyyat, which was most interesting. We saw that rural polling place and, again, it was very impressive to see democracy at work even in a rural area. Lloyd Dogget: We saw the challenges Artsax faces. Its government could have taken a different course. What impresses me is how open that process was. International observers like us were welcome to got anywhere in the area we wished to go, talk to people, see the voting process. This openness will certainly add to the strengthening of democracy here. Correspondent: It is wonderful to hear such things. Before I ask my next question, I would like to hear incubent President Arkadiy Gukasyan's comments. Arkadiy Gukasyan: It is clear that the world cannot accept a totalitarian regime or military dictatorship in Nagornyy Artsax. Our only option is to improve the people's well-being. And we have taken serious steps in this direction. I am convinced that the world would understand and accepts this very seriously. This is our historical chance. Correspondent: You heard this comment and my next question is; there were, if I am not mistaken, about 130 independent states on the world map 30 years ago; today there are more than 200, so what kind of an impact can this have on Nagornyy Artsax? Azerbaijan is much more powerful country than Nagornyy Artsax and there have been many issues raised in this regard. What do you think about this? Frank Pallone: Well, certainly in the U.S. we try to spread democracy and we feel that the U.S. is a good example and we are trying to help other countries become democratic. I think it is very important, I heard what the president of Nagornyy Artsax said that If Nagornyy Artsax is to be recognized by other countries it is important that it be democratic and it is a fact that Azerbaijan had not shown as much tendency towards democracy. I think that the two will be compared, and the international community will say; we have sate in Nagornyy Artsax which is democratic. We have another one that is often critical of Nagornyy Artsax and it is not democratic. This will create sympathy for the NKR, as they are doing the right thing. they are implmenting democracy. Correspondent: What have you observed today, do you think that the people of Artsax have managed to make their dreams come true? Lloyd Dogget: I think that each time when free people take part in elections democracy is strengthened not only in the area where they are held, in Artsax, but around the world. But I think that to make this dream come true you have to build on this democracy. Every family must feel that its children are secure from attack from abroad and that they will be able to find economic security at home and jobs. I hope that the success of these elections will encourage Nagornyy Artsax and Armenia to take all steps towards a permanent resolution even though they realize the great obstacles they are facing from the Azerbaijani government. Correspondent: Thank you very much

There is no doubt that the presidential elections in the Nagonryy Artsax Republic are legitimate, members of a French delegation, who had monitored the elections, said in Stepanakert today. They said that the very fact that the Artsax people had a democratically elected political leadership should help achieve a final result in the settlement of the Nagornyy Artsax conflict. They also noted that the elections had been conducted at an appropriate level and that no obvious violations had been registered either at any stage of the elections or while summing up the results.

Mediamax news agency 12 August 2002 "Free and transparent" is how an independent team of American observers described the presidential elections in the Nagorno Artsax Republic. A statement from the US observers, distributed in Stepanakert today, says the "the authorities of Nagornyy Artsax have invested serious efforts in holding elections in a democratic way". Having visited 29 polling stations, the American observers said the they had not registered any serious violations of the election process. The American observer team includes: former US envoy to Jordan and Tanzania Richard Viets; former US State Department official James Hooper; retired diplomat Louis Sell; World Bank and USAID adviser Brenda Pearson; and former Yugoslav Deputy Foreign Minister Vladimir Matic.

Thousands of soldiers of "Al Qaeda" terrorist organization lead by top terrorist Usam Bin Laden underwent baptism of fire during the fight for Nagorno Artsax on the side of Azerbaijan. As Moscow "Nezavisimaya gazeta" newspaper states reffering the "Washington ProFile" agency, "Al Qaeda" has started its activities in the former USSR territory since late 80 establishing headquarters in Baku and assisting Azeris in the war against Christian Armenia for the control over Nagorno-Artsax. 1993 September, 1.5 thousand Afghan soldiers arrived in Azerbaijan. 1994 summer, the number of soldiers in Azerbaijan was 2.5 thousand. After its heavy casulties in the battles against Armenians, the "Afghan unit" was disbanded in 1994 but many of its soldiers participated in other regional conflicts later. Chechens also cooperated with former USSR Muslims, in particualar with Azeris. They got missiles not only for them but also for Azeri "colleagues" and that was real help to the latter at the seizure of the city of Hordiz situated to the southeast of Stepanakert.

rubo, for a third time you use the word nationalism while talking to me. I have asked you the first couple of times and, I am asking you again-...nationalism??? something like??? speak with facts!!!

In case you guys forgot, today is Navasard(the armenian new year). There once was a time, when we had 13 months and 28 days in each month. There once was a time, when we used to celebrate our new year on August 11.

yeah, if rubo was in Artsax, he would have try to convince people not to participate on presidential ellection because the azeri juntas have decalred that 'we are still in the process of solving the problem...bla bla bla" and because rubo would think that he is smarter than the rest of us.

rubo, JUST SHUT UP!!!

The USSR Supreme Soviet's resolution of November 28, 1989, which was adopted under the joint pressure of the Soviet Azerbaijan government and the pro-Azerbaijan forces in Moscow, liquidated the "Volsky Commission" and a January 15, 1990, decision replaced it with Soviet Azerbaijan's "Republic Organizational Committee"(orgkom). The stated purpose of this body was to reestablish the erstwhile local "soviets" of Nagorno Karabagh. In reality, though, the orgkom, under the direction of Azerbaijani Communist Party deputy leader Viktor Polianichko, schemed to do away with Karabagh's autonomy. Polianichko aimed to resolve the issue by ridding Karabagh of its Armenain majority. He took measures to artificially increase the size of the Azerbaijani community in Nagorno Karabagh and alter the territory's demographic makeup. A great number of residences were built in Karabagh and in the Lachin district for Azerbaijani refugees who had fled Armenia between 1988 and 1990. As a consequence of this intentional alteration of the demographic balance combined with concerted military actions by Polianichko's orgkom, the Azerbaijani special police force and the Soviet Armey detachments located in Nagorno Karabagh, Soviet Azerbaijan placed more than half of Nagorno Karabagh's territory under military occupation. Moreover, Shushi, Lachin and other strategic settlements in and around Karabagh were transformed into Azerbaijani military bases, seriously jeopardizing the existance of the isolated Armenain enclave. On November 23, 1991, the Supreme Soviet of Azerbaijan, having already declared its own independence from the USSR and flouting Articles 86 and 87 of the Soviet Constitution, adopted a resolution on the "Aboliton of the Nagorno Karabagh Autonomous Oblost." In so doing, Baku also violated its own law, enacted on June 16, 1987, which regulated the relations between Soviet Azerbaijan and Nagorno Karabagh. This law prohibited infringement of the latter's borders without its explicit consent. Azerbaijan's decision was also response to a December 1, 1989, resolution of Armenia's Supreme Soviet unanimoulsy calling for "The Reunion of the Armenian SSR and Nagorno Karabagh." On November 27, 1991, the USSR Constitutional Oversight Committee's resolution deemed unconsitutional the orgkom created by the Supreme Soviet decision of January 15, 1990, as well as the November 23 Azerbaijani decision abolishing Karabagh's autonomy. It also revoked the December 1 Armenain resolution on reunification. While this action restored Karabagh's pre-1988 status and hence had juridical significance, it included no provisons to achieve security and viability for the beleaguered territory.

The case of Karabgh is not a territorial, religious or ethnic fonflict between Armenia and Azerbaijan. Far from this oft-quoted formula, Nagorno Karabagh's quest for freedom and self-rule is, in fact, a fundamental precedent and the last step in the Soviet Union's decolonization process. Karabagh had never, legally or otherwise, belonged to a sovereign, indpendent Azerbaijan. Its inclusion in 1921 in the structure of the Azerbaijani SSR was unlawfully ordered by a political party(not even a governemtn) of a third country, that is, the Caucasion Bureau of the Communist Pary of the Soviet Union. During the USSR's existence, Nagorno Karabagh was part of a multilayered colonial system and was subjected to Soviet Azerbaijan, not on a contractual basis, but by an administrative reference fo the Soviet Constitution. The contradiction between Articles 70(self-determinationof peoples) and 78 (territorial integrity of Union republics) of this Constitution was resolved on April 3, 1990, by the adoption of the law on secession. The independence of Azerbaijan from the USSR is the first, while the independence of Nagorno Karabagh from Soviet Azerbaijan is the second level of decolonization achieved pursuant to this law. And this is a precisely how Karabagh resolved the legal novelty presented by the demise of the very empire whose sole political party had placed it under the administration of one of is constituent republics. In addition, the independence of Nagorno Karabagh was effected under the norms of international law. Teh principle of self-determination- a people's right to enjoy equal liberties and to determine its own political destiny-as fonfirmed in the Helsinki Final Act clearly applies to Nagorno Karabagh. It was in conformity with this international legal standard that Karabagh conducted its referendum on independence on December 10, 1991. As all the precepts of the Helsinki Final Act have equal value, the principle of self-determination of peoples cannot, as Azerbaijan and other states have asserted, be deemed inferior to the notion of territorial integrity and invilability of borders which governs interstate relations. They must be ready together and in the context of anotehr Helsinki principle: the preacful settlement of disputes. Relevant United Nations documents enshrining the rights of self-determination and decolonization, coupled with a variety of concrete instances of independence gained under the UN umbrella, als provide compelling precedent for the Karabagh position. Nagorno Karabagh is a distinct party to the conflict with Azerbaijan. The attempt of Azerbaijan to present Armenia as its advesary have little foundation in fact and are intended to convert the question of Nagorno Karabagh's self-determination and the disintegration of the Soviet Union's colonial hierarchy into as issue of international confrontation between Azerbaijan and Armenia.

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Hey rubo, since you like to talk about the facts, i have some more well recorded facts for you... ...That policy's portentousness is directly connected with Ittihad's emergin new policy towards the Ottoman Armenians, the bare outlines of whihc were set forth in Saloniki(a place from where most of the young turks came out---who by fact, were mainly jews) during the Ittihadist annual convention of 1910. As As Fidjot Nansen noted in his book, "the settlement of Muslim refugees in the Christian section of Armenia was carefully prepared and promoted. After the Balkan defeat thousands of Turkish refugees from Thrace3 and Macedonia arrived in Anatolia full of anti-Christian hatred which was inflamed by the government." The report of a British consul at Erzurum confirms the existence of a deliberate governmental policy to pave the ground for operations to be launched at an opportune moment against the Armenians. In an 28 August 1913 report from Erzurum Consul Moynahan refers to Turkish provocations, stating, "Since the Balkan war a great number of agents have been sent into various regions of Asia Minor, carrying on a violent propaganda against the Christians. Crimes committed against Christians is considered in Turkish Armenia as heroism; if a crime is committed by an Armenian then even the family of the accused are at once arrested." Attaced to the same communication is a cable from Van, dated 30 August 1913 declaring that "the Rumeli(Balkan) gendarmes are continually threatening the Armenian population." Aroud the same time another report from Karakilise in bayazed sancak in eastern Turkey states that "the local police chief and his cronies from Rumeli are perpetrating sexual crimes against young girls which they didn't even commit in the ancient regime[of Abdul Hamit]. Under the guise of searching for deserters, pretending to ascertain the sex of children and women every day the honor of Armenian families is violated." As Toynbee summed up the picture, "the arrival of the Rumelian refugees from the end of 1912 onwards produced an unexampled tension of feeling in Anatolia and a desire for revenge."