Rubo

Nairi jan I think you are little too harsh on Ali. He simply is presenting the mindset of a people whose ethnic kin’s sufferings also does resonate pain. We can’t say your pain is less then mine. I actually wished we had thousands of Turks like Ali who can say Armenian Genocide without hesitation. Although Ali cannot agree with everything we got to say likewise we perhaps are also subjected to our own brand of brainwashing. The bottom line is that we as Armenians got to stop thinking like a victim and carry that mentality indefinitely.

Hayemyes I echo your sentiments. Power corrupts and that is why in US constitution we got check and balance system in place to insure against power addiction. Armenia does not have an experience with democracy and therefore its institutions are still carry the residue psychology that you must bribe to get anything done. As long as we got people in office putting their doorknobs above that of our nation’s needs, we will continue to sink deeper into typical third world artificial “democracy” There was a lot of talk here about unity. Unity is the outlook, which says your little frog pond, and my little frog pond is connected to the river where the water is coming from and while we are fighting to see who can croak the loudest the water level is slowly dropping to dangerous levels.

Perhaps no other person influenced my life more then Raffi. I more then ever understand his struggles against the corrupt and the ignorant and he elegantly expresses the Armenian psyche in profound depth. What he said hundred and thirty years earlier still stands for valid critical inquire. Rubo Armenian News Network / Groong June 24, 2002 By Donald Abcarian Raffi (1832-1888) was the preeminent Armenian novelist of the mid-nineteenth century national revival. Through a rich body of writing spanning numerous genres, his creative and analytic genius ignited the Armenian literary scene with the imagery of national self-recognition, cultural enlightenment, and political emancipation. In so doing he layed a broad foundation for the subsequent development of Armenian literature, intellectual life, and politics. His career embraced many fields of activity: radical educator, pioneer in the use of modern Armenian, historian, folklorist, cultural anthropologist, social critic, moral philosopher, and political strategist. He remains a literary figure of unparalleled stature in modern Armenian history. No one in Raffi's day knew or understood Armenia better than he, for he had traveled its length and breadth many times, acquainted himself in minute detail with every dimension of its life, met with countless country folk and listened closely to their stories, thus gathering a rich store of material which he would later bring to life in vivid, passionate depictions of the revolutionary struggle between the old and the new. As a result, he encountered bitter opposition from the conservative circles whose stranglehold on Armenian society he represented with such merciless accuracy in his stories, and his entire creative career was plagued by censorship. Yet among the masses his stories were eagerly passed from hand to hand until they became tattered, and those who couldn't read would gather around their literate compatriots to hear them read aloud. Raffi threw himself body and soul into the national ferment of his time, a period marked by unbounded optimism and bitter disappointment. Following on the lead established by his sacred idols, Khrimian Hairig, Khachadur Abovian, and Mikayel Nalbandian, he resolutely set out to accomplish his self-appointed mission in life: creating a true popular literature for a people who had none. He contended with serious personal risks in doing so, but persevered with increasing mastery to reach the summit of his artistic abilities. An overview of Raffi's fiction reveals one overarching purpose: to hold up a well polished mirror to the totality of Armenian life, representing it in each of its principal population centers and at different historic moments, each novel serving as part of a grand mosaic which completes the picture of Armenia. From his earliest novels set in his native Persia, to his stories depicting the Armenian merchant class in Tiflis, to his final novel Samvel, set in ancient Armenia, all are directed to fulfilling this purpose. In this panorama we see all the glory and misery of Armenian existence presented with cinematic clarity. This picture includes the striving idealism of Armenian revolutionaries, but also the festering ethnic resentments and attendant stereotypes which Raffi presents with unvarnished candor. These are particularly found in the novels "Jalaleddin," and "The Fool," works associated with the last Russo-Turkish War, 1877-78, the most devastating war in living memory and one which set in motion a series of cataclysms for Armenia that ultimately led to the Genocide of 1915. A complete reading of his works, however, will reveal the overwhelming preponderance of humanist universalism in his thought, and for every expression of cultural bias, one will find its opposite and balancing formulation somewhere else in his work. From "Gaidzer", volume II, Chapter 1, "VAN": [Aslan is one of the central characters in "Gaidzer", Raffi's longest novel, and he appears in various ethnic disguises in the course of the story. Aslan is leading Farhad, the narrator of the story, on an exploration of the principal sites of ancient Armenian history while at the same time meeting secretly with subversive groups in far-flung villages to lay the groundwork for revolution.] Farhad says of Aslan: "But there was one thing about Aslan that stood out clearly from all the rest: From the first day we set out together, wherever we went, whatever the circumstances, the people he met with were always those who protested against the general anarchy of the land. And it seemed some common thread ran through all of them, binding all their hearts and wills together, these people of different nationalities. But who was it that held the other end of that thread? They were all the individual parts of some great, complex mechanism. But what was the force that set it in motion and gave it direction? Who was it that turned their many wills toward one goal? To this day, that answer has eluded me. As it seemed to me, this was the ruling spirit, existing in invisibility, keeping itself unapproachable, governing the hearts and minds of mankind with its powerful unseen hand, and giving them all direction..." In final analysis, all of Raffi's major works deserve to be translated into English, the indisputed international language. Fresh exposure to his revealing depictions of Armenian culture and history, his highly developed, incisive treatment of man's inhumanity to man, and the dark, mysterious drama of his fictional world will convince many a modern reader that this is not a writer who deserves consignment to historical oblivion. Such a translation project would require broad institutional support and the collective effort of many individuals whose linguistic knowledge is matched by a high degree of literary sensibility. There could be no better way of concluding this overview of Raffi than by quoting what one of his contempories said to him on reading his first published novel, "Harem: (1874): Letter From R. Badganian, publisher and writer, to Raffi: "The essential character of your prose, with a view both to its inner and its outward composition, with a view both to the manner of expression and the currentness of what is said -- in short, from every point of view -- is a new phenomenon in our newborn literature. Without the least intention of offending anyone's pride, or removing one leaf from anyone's laurels, or diminishing anyone else's value by one whit, I will tell you that neither Abovian, nor Nazarian, nor Taghyatian, not one, not one of your predecessors ever had the significance and the impact you have. And it must be said that masterful works of literature will always have contemporary interest, which yours will have if only you never stray from the path you have taken, for it is the truest path of all." "You imperceptibly awaken in the nation those benumbed feelings that your predecessors struggled in vain to awaken with all their drums and trumpets, with all their crying and wailing... They didn't awaken them, failing to gauge the true level of their power and talent. All they did was to find fault with the people, the nation, whereas he who would awaken them would have to have the kind of power they were lacking and which you have." "You are one of those poets in whom the godly spirit of the ancient prophets lives, which is so astir within you that it will show the nation the way to the right road... Why need I go on and on like this? You are one of those messianic poets whom we sought all along but were unable to find. Enough... Reading your Harem, a thousand and one powerful feelings stirred within me, my eyes brimmed with tears, and I was provoked by love and hate toward one or another character. In a word, you took over my being, and whichever way you wanted me to go you took my heart... Why? Because you are a poet in the fullest sense of that word." [The author is indebted for all biographical specifics, including the letter from Badganian, to the work of Khachik Samvelian, distinguished scholar who has devoted his career to studying Raffi. His notes on Raffi's work appended to the 1983-84 edition of "Raffi's Collected Works" published by Sovedagan Krogh (The Soviet Writer) and his 1987 literary biography entitled "Raffi -- Gyanki Steghdzakordzagan Oughin" (Raffi -- The Creative Path of His Life) are the principal sources for this article. Future articles will once more draw on his work, as well as that of Sergei Sarinian who wrote the introduction to the Collection mentioned above. -- DA ] NEXT: RAFFI -- Early Life and Principal Works -------------------------------------------------------------------- Donald Abcarian was born in Fresno, California. He graduated from the University of California Berkeley with a degree in philosophy and has pursued a lifelong interest in languages and world literature. He has been translating from Raffi's works for the past seven years. In 2000 the Gomidas Institute published his translation of The Fool {Khent@]. Mr. Abcarian currently lives in Berkeley. Where to find the English translated novel? http://www.gomidas.org/books/raffi.htm

Nairi jan I am probably wrong but I believe if a solution to a serious problem like AG , can not be achieved fraternally then we should approach it from a deferent vestal point of view such as economy and greater cultural exchanges. Hopefully in time the gradual thawing process will create much more conducive environment to discuss our gravest issues. If a problem is not solvable now ,perhaps we should freeze it for time being until better opportune time. Regards

Dear Mher, I thought I was the only one…. I to have found George Gurdjieff, teachings to be extremely “spiritual” in my life however it is too bad that he did not elaborate his thoughts well. Most of his lectures were recorded by his students such as Ouspensky's book, In Search of the Miraculous,and often with loose ends. It is simply very hard to follow Gurdjieff teachings in full swing since he took most everything with him when he died or his followers were just not on the same caliber to continue his tradition. Having said this if anybody reads Gurdjieff will at least understand our mechanical existence. I am glad to meet you.

Dear Arpa and Nairi not to take away from the discussion by my silliness here is something that might iterest both of you. Canadian Geologist Finds Desert Proof Of Great Flood [Original headline: Manitoba geologist thinks he's found evidence of Noah's flood] WINNIPEG (CP) - The Arabian desert, one of the driest places on Earth, may seem an odd place to look for evidence of what's supposed to have been the greatest deluge in history. But a Manitoba geologist thinks he and an international team have found scientific proof that a nearby area was flooded, at the end of the last ice age, as the story of Noah and other ancient tales have suggested. "This isn't 40 days and 40 nights of rain as the scriptures would describe Noah's flood but it certainly is one that would have impacted on people and their settlements," says Jim Teller of the University of Manitoba. The rest of the team includes Nick Lancaster of the Desert Research Institute in Nevada, Ken Glennie of the University of Aberdeen and Ashok Singhvi of he Physical Research Lab in India. Their research was presented recently at the annual meeting of the Geological Society of America in Reno, Nevada, and published in the scientific journal Quaternary International. Two American scientists, William Ryan and Walter Pitman, have already suggested the flooding of the Black Sea after the last ice age may have been the source of the flood stories that appear in early recorded history. "There does seem to be some pretty widespread evidence for some huge inundation in that general area," says Prof. Al Wolters, who teaches religion, theology and classical languages at Redeemer College in Ancaster, Ont. "In principle I think it's quite possible that this theory, like the one of Pitman and Ryan, may be on the track of something." The flood was certainly a catastrophe of epic proportions according to the New King James Version of the Bible. "And the waters prevailed exceedingly on the earth and all the high hills under the whole heaven were covered. "The waters prevailed fifteen cubits upward (about seven metres) and the mountains were covered." Scholars have long known of other, similar tales from the Middle East. The Epic of Gilgamesh is perhaps the most well-known but not the earliest. That honour likely belongs to the story of Ziusudra, a Sumerian king who boarded a barge to escape a flood of the Euphrates River. It has been speculated the flood of Noah - said to have built an ark to save his family and every species on Earth - was also just a flood of the Euphrates or Tigris, two rivers at the crossroads of recorded history. But Teller suggests it was a product of the great melt at the end of the last ice age, a few thousand years earlier, and the story was remembered. For 100,000 years or more, kilometres-thick sheets of ice had covered much of the globe. So much water was withdrawn from the oceans they were about 120 metres lower than today. The melt started about 20,000 years ago and took thousands of years to finish, with another mini ice age along the way. It's during this process Teller says the Persian Gulf was reflooded. The theory had its genesis around an Arabian desert campfire in the fall of 1998, where he and the other geologists were resting under a starry sky after a day probing the origins of sand dunes. Some of the dunes were found to contain the remnants of tiny shelled marine organisms such as foraminifera and clams, apparently blown from the floor of the Gulf after it became dry during the last ice age. "The Persian Gulf area, which is only a shallow basin - it's only 100 metres deep - was completely dry during the last ice age," says Teller. "Waters from the melting ice at the end of the last ice age went back to the ocean. Ocean levels went up more than 100 metres and the Persian Gulf Basin got refilled by water over 1,000 years." The tiny marine animals do not show up in dunes after the Gulf was filled. One thousand years is a lot longer than 40 days and 40 nights but at times Teller says the water moved quite quickly over the flat plain, sometimes at a rate of more than a kilometre a year. At that speed, he suggests the returning water would have driven the inhabitants of the area from settlements and likely have been viewed at the time as a catastrophic event, the kind to be recorded for posterity. "Stories must have been told and passed down through time." The Epic of Gilgamesh, which also describes a flood like that of Genesis, was found inscribed in cuneiform script on clay tablets at the northwestern end of the Persian Gulf. Columbia University marine geologists Ryan and Pitman wrote a book outlining their theory that about 7,500 years ago, water from the Mediterranean spilled over into the Black Sea, then a freshwater lake, raising levels 15 centimetres a day and flooding surrounding settlements.

Mosjan, would you excuse me of showing my kids these silly creatures? They are glued to the monitor with big smiles.

We certainly had our legends. I'm sure you are familiar with Ara and Shamiram, Tork Angghya and others. You also know why we call the Milky Way Galaxy "Hart Goghi Janaparh". Very accurate furthermore every culture does have their folklore and Armenia is no exception. The flood was a historical fact which scientists recently proved that indeed such flood did happened. It happened much earlier era hence Jewish references to the flood dates before Abraham and other Israelites.Jews are definitely newcomers to flood business

This is simply not true, Arpa. Everyone, including the Jews, knows that the Bible is based on existing myths, from Mesopotamian to Hittitian and Greek. I agree furthermore Jews copied lot of Egyptian rites and ideas. Regards

It is funny that you take exclusive right to the name EDO. Honestly you were not even on my radar screen.I Choose it mechanically. Will Ashot do it? :eyemouth:Boo:jumping: By the way you never understood the core content.

"strong country" a great future" "much better" educational system If we do not establish strong democratic values then these slogans will remain as cultural clichés without any value collecting dust on some corrupt president’s cousin elected educational minister or cousin uncle Moso as defense minister or second cousin edo as propaganda minister and the meanwhile ordinary people would wait for the slogans to bare fruit. I cannot be more explicit.

Welcome ES, Koniakits mnatsele?

Eduard,let me illustrate with this simple analogy. Don’t feel offended. Simplicity is the beauty. Let's imagine the car as the democratic process and the passengers are the causes and ideas. The passengers do change periodically but the vehicle remains the same. Now you got to maintain the car hence we establish check and balance system. Sip I agree with you fully

I got to do this more elementary level.Could you please give me an example of a cause that could potentially unite us now or next fifthy years.

Eduard Causes and overwhelming ideas are transitory concepts. What is today’s cause is tomorrow’s passé same with ideas. You cannot establish a national unity based on shifting sand. I already explained that, only through democratic process we can unite but the unity itself is the process of democracy.Read the Nairi's post on the political reality now in Armenia and you will understand why democracy is the most important unity.

Since you like logical communication Eduard could you find and prove this forum that MJ said this!! I second with you MJ. Unity must come with sharing the same values that will lead us to build a future. Give me a sentence, anything!!!

Maybe your questions were already answered? or refusing to engage you means in your definition offence to mighty ego?hence the contempt?

WHO THE HELL IS THIS rubo CHARACHER, AFTER ALL!?! HE RUNS AROUND CALLING PEOPLE NAMES AND PLAYING A JUDGE FOR US. Who am I? The ultimate question, the raving sweet juice of all religions and philosophies, with that statement begins the self-search, the knowledge, and the means to arrive perhaps or never arrive to any conclusive conviction. Those who asked these serious questions upon themselves were at one point self aware that they were mere mortals, dust in the universe, mercy to fallibility hence the quest for answers… Bertrand Russell The value of philosophy is, in fact, to be sought largely in its very uncertainty. The man who has no tincture of philosophy goes through life imprisoned in the prejudices derived from common sense, from the habitual beliefs of his age or his nation, and from convictions which have grown up in his mind without the co-operation or consent of his deliberate reason. To such a man the world tends to become definite, finite, obvious; common objects rouse no questions, and unfamiliar possibilities are contemptuously rejected. As soon as we begin to philosophize, on the contrary, we find... that even the most everyday things lead to problems to which only very incomplete answers can be given. Philosophy, though unable to tell us with certainty what is the true answer to the doubts it raises, is able to suggest many possibilities which enlarge our thoughts and free them from the tyranny of custom. Thus, while diminishing our feeling of certainty as to what things are, it greatly increases our knowledge as to what they may be; it removes the somewhat arrogant dogmatism of those who have never traveled into the region of liberating doubt, and it keeps alive our sense of wonder by showing familiar things in an unfamiliar aspect. I second with you MJ. Unity must come with sharing the same values that will lead us to build a future. Perhaps Mr. Eduard would explain what he would do to those Armenians who do not share your specific brand of values. Would you beat them up? Would you smash their computers and trash their work place? Would you kill them? Would you not rest until you are satisfied with your thirst for revenge? Would you take a disagreement as life time habit forming contempt for offenders?

History has more brown nosers then honest people. People who think for themselves are far few and between. Chauvinists talking about unity are equitable as hyenas becoming vegetarians

MJ (jan) Idiot is what idiot says. Your blunders are all over this forum. The problem is that since you are such a conceited individual you will never admit that you were wrong on any issue. That is something you must work on your character. Nobody is infallible, real human beings who have an ounce of integrity can at times say 'I am wrong” People who know me well can testify my generosity of spirit and I have on many occasions admitted my wrongs. Real knowledge begins when one realizes the mortality of life and transitory face of all knowledge and ideas. To take one’s self so seriously and to frown on other people like Hagarag calling him Khojda and crap hardly elevates one to morally superior status. That is all. Stop your insults and I will do more paintings and less ripping your statements.

But, nevertheless, Iraq is the week nerve of the region, and the regional geopolitics is going to spiral around Iraq, in the near future. So far as the issue of Iraq exists, Turkey is going to be irreplaceable for the US, for example. The positioning of Iran in the region in this context is most unclear. So, I would predict a lot of realignment in the region in the coming decade. And in this context and in this period, God forbid Armenia is under the control of schizophrenics. I am just having some fun MJ, relax. Lets see where logically your statement goes. If Armenia were to be control by schizophrenics then majority of Armenians did vote them in power hence majority of Armenians in Armenia are schizophrenics. Logically it is impossible for the majority of people to be mental patients, therefore your statement has no validity furthermore it only reinforces the elitist outlook. MJ your profile is all over this forum.

Nairi> That's right. He also advocates that this common goal should be "the future of Armenia". I disagree with your conclusion MJ>In the view of all this, I am going to opt for disunity amongst Armenians rather than unity, since I think the perimeters of useful unity are defined by the outlook for the Republic for its future, and it is in its best interests to “chop the rope,” the other end of which is the heavy stone dragging it down. This is called “cut the loses.” “Chopping the rope” represents those issues that are defined by few “experts” on highest level of government then how can those issues represent a common goal. It sounds more like Turkish generals club.

We should examine why Armenian affluent Diaspora has been a disappointed factor thus far in Armenian economy. When Armenia did gained independence, we in Diaspora were overjoyed. We desperately wanted to help and contribute but our illusions were shattered by Ter Petrosian’s anti-ARF and Diaspora policies driven by the sense of pleasing the Turks to achieve cessations. We now know that those consations never arrived and our people paid the price both in Diaspora and homeland. Needless to say the initial excitement did vane out until Kocharian’s presidency. Kocharian did remarkably well in foreign affairs putting Armenia on the map but failed thus far again to utilize the Diaspora resources. Israel and China have been successful in utilizing their Diasporas and the lessons learned can be applied to our case as well. Armenians always have been victims of not only foreign invaders but our trivial party divisions as well. Time is ripe in twenty first century to finally apply the lessons of history. I am for inclusion ,even our radicals do have their place since they would only reinforce their own opposition. Armenian Genocide is a major issue dividing the lines at times. This issue should also be examined collectively and be assessed to see its validity and passé status among all Armenians. Instead of our issues become the dividing lines I would say let the process for finding solutions be the united goal hence all goals are potentially become united metaphors. Regards to all

) As I understand, MJ says that unity is achieved when a group strives for a common goal. Rubo>At the expense of excluding the Diaspora! Hardly a common goal! Dear Sip Democratic process means just that. I do not see any reason why we as Armenians in Diaspora cannot have duel citizenship. This is in the process by the way and so as Diaspora conference. The whole idea beyond Diaspora conference was to air out our problems and find solutions. Diaspora Armenians do not necessarily want the power to vote but they do want to be part of the process, which can be achieved by special laws and incentives. For example if a Diaspora Armenian buys land in Armenia or establishes a business which would employ thousands of employees then pays taxes follows all rules of the government then why should he or she be excluded from political process. We should not fear our fellow Armenians but except at least in our minds that democracy is the norm and the civilized way. Regards

Free dive Any person who assumes the role of the infallible self prophesied genius can not resist the temptation of lecturing with a astute beginning like “MJ,At the risk of repeating myself for the four thousandth time ” One gets a distinctive feeling that this very forum must be full of sheep and dupes otherwise does a massage take that many times to deliver? Perhaps it is the delivery or the content is at fault. Unity? Strange that simple concept gets complicated in the minds of our pundits. Unity is the very inclusive projection to include all Armenians as one entity. We must not exclude our Dashnaks,Hanchaks and other organizations but include them all in the political process. Perhaps it is a difficult idea to some but for me all must address all issues concern to Armenians. If Armenia wants to capitalize the Diaspora resources and lobby power then Diaspora must also be included as political factor. As soon as we project us verses them then it becomes a simple game of tribalism. Democracy! Is our saver!!