MJ

quote:Originally posted by dragon: Look what I got. Urgent Action Requested-AYF TAKE A STAND FOR THE ARMENIAN CAUSE The NY Times of 10th July revealed the existance of a ten-member group of Turks and Armenians who have been meeting secretly in recent months to discuss the issue of Turkish-Armenian Reconciliation.The group was formed at the initiative of the Turkish Gov and the US state Department. The motivations of the Turkish interests behind this Commision,the unrepresentative composition of its membership,and the secretive nature of its operations all point to the conclusion that its formation serves the Turkish Government's interest in:*Derailing our progress toward Armenian Genocide recognition,*Destroying the Armenian Genocide as a political issue,*Dividing the Armenian People,*Denying justice to the Armenian nation.The Turkish Gov can only succeed if Armenians,like you,remain silent.Here are some suggestions for how you can take a stand against the Turkish Gov-s attemps to manipulate the Armenian people:1)Learn more about "Commission" and Turkey's Denial of the Genocide: http://www.turkey.org http://www.ataa.org 2)Ask the Arm Foreign Minister to Clarify his Role in the Formation of this "Commision" e-mail:info@ArmeniaForeignMinistry.com 3)Contact the "Commission's" Armenian Participants Share your views with the 4 Arm members of this group about the serious damage this undertaking is inflicting upon the Armenian Cause. e-mail: info@aaainc.org (Armenian Assembly) tel 202)393-3434 Van Krikorian(Chairman,Arm Assembly),Alexander Arzoumanian(Chairman,Arm National Movement-HHSH),David Hovhannissian,Andranik Mihranian. 4)email your friends and family Thank you, Dragon. I just called the referenced number of the Armenian Assembly, and encouraged them to keep up the good job and deliver the initiative to the next stage.

If you were trying to call Yerevan, then you have the right code. 011+374-1+his number in Yerevan

Armenians, as much as I know, receive their first doze of nationalism with their mother’s milk. And it goes on and on, throughout learning how to ride a three-wheel bike, while learning to read, and so on. The views of the general public are rather consistent with the “nationalistic windmills” referenced above. Just look at this forum, if only it may be considered the microcosm of the nation. Armenians are not nationalists by their essence. If this is what you were referring to, than you had a point. However, the conventional Armenian ideology is a manifestation of superstitious nationalism. Its focal point is directed at the external forces rather than the internal consciousness. However, you are right that every now and then some volunteers would try to fight against the “nationalistic windmills” perceiving them to be superstitious manifestations of nonproductive and declarative patriotism, which erode the real foundations of consequential patriotism. As far as the “noble” political agendas are concerned, anybody who knows a little bit about the Armenian politics knows that the avocation of those “noble” political agendas leads with great certainty towards the self-crucifixion of the advocates, and the adaptation of the declarative and traditional nationalistic slogans is a much more assured way of accommodating the public views. [ August 12, 2001: Message edited by: MJ ]

quote:Originally posted by gamavor: I would suggest occupying the bitter reality instead of creating fake centers. The bitter reality is resulted from supersticial nationalism and made-up interpretations of oor history. The current reality precisely points at the center. That center may be as fake as our reality may be.

Well, I guess, if things have to be either this extreme or the other one, than you successfully have descried the two extremes of the Armenian psyche. On a factual level, I don't know how can one contest some of the things that you have said, above, however. But at the end of the day, the imperative of our times is to dismiss the two extremes and occupy the center. [ August 12, 2001: Message edited by: MJ ]

No doubt about it. I am not in the business of selling white noise.

Thoth, As a side comment, O'Railly is Irish, and we know the prejudices that have traditionally existed in the US and still exist towards Irish. But I also think that worse prejudices against us exist in Europe, as well as in Russia, while Russians are considered by many to be our Guardian Angels, for example. On the other hand, we are the least in the position of complaining about prejudices, because our own minds are full of them. Even in this forum. For many years I live in areas where I have absolutely no contact with Armenians, or since last year, my only point of contact with the Armenians is through this forum. My children have grown up in almost full isolation from the Armenians, as well, at least in the last 4 years. Prior to that, while in Michigan, they used to attend Armenian Saturday School and had some limited exposure to the Armenian community in Dearborn - twice a year reciting Armenian poetry on Christmas and at the end of the "academic" year. The areas we live in in the last 4 years are not familiar with the "immigrant" culture, at all, and are pretty "Americocentric." We have experienced no prejudices that I can think of throughout these years. Our children are some of the most popular ones in their schools and in the neighborhood. People accept them as if they are their own, yet tell us "Your children are different." But they interpret the difference in some very positive ways, and they love it. My wife has the same experiences. Sure there are always the "Mayflower Americans," to whom no one other than the "Mayflower Americans" are acceptable. But isn't Europe even worse in this sense? Isn't it an implant from the European culture? As a matter of fact, of all cultures in the world, the American culture is the most open to foreigners and immigrants (by default). Of all countries, this is the one least discriminatory against the newcomers on a relative scale, at least. Yet, you hear everybody complain about America. Then, it raises a lot of questions - "What is it exactly that you don't like about America?" [ August 12, 2001: Message edited by: MJ ]

quote:Originally posted by Armo: LOL...Thank you MJ Jan ...I certainly hope so ~~~ ~~~Armine Good luck. But don't be affraid to make a couple of mistakes of your own. You learn from your own mistakes more than from others' mistakes.

quote:Originally posted by Armo: MJ Jan, My father says that as well...and I follow his advice... In order for me to be successful in life I need to learn from others' and their experiences, whether it be good or bad. ~~~Armine OK... You seem to be fully equipped to go out into the wilderness.

quote:Originally posted by Armo: ...my father always tells me to learn from others' mistakes, ... ~~~Armine Dear Armine, How about learning from others' success?

LithiumC4, It doesn't necessarily have to be a Student Association. An Armenian Assembly sponsored meeting may also be fine, in my view. The important thing is to have qualified and well-tempered spokesmen, who understand the American way of thinking. It would be great if, first, one could investigate and identify the source of O'Railly's reservation towards Armenians - is it in the context of Armenian Organized Crime, the reliance of some segments of Armenian Immigrants on Social Programs, is it the transfer of the Armeno-Turkish hostility into the American political life, what is it? P.S. Why LithiumC4? Anything shorter for convenience?

quote:Originally posted by LithiumC4: Well I did some skimming and I'm in the dark more then ever. Now I find out we might be wrong with celebrating Christianity now and MJ isn't fit to be in busines? MJ doesn't do business with you, sonny.

Check these threads: /cgi-bin/forum/ultim...c&f=18&t=000008 /cgi-bin/forum/ultim...c&f=18&t=000007 and then, we can continue .

What means 1st Christian Kingdome?

My best wishes to you on your way.

Thoth, I agree fully with your comments about prejudices. My wife and me frequently watch O’Reilly’s "No-spin zone." We have also seen other commentaries of his on a variety of issues in other programs and town-hall meetings. We are not conservatives by any stretch, neither we find O’Reilly to be one. Frequently he may be very silly. However, as a rule, he is very sober political correspondent (and not a talk show host), he goes directly to the bottom of the things and doesn't give his guest any slack. It's worth mentioning also, I think, that his "No-Spin Zone" is the highest rated "political hour" on the Network TV. I have seen the interview where he made the referenced above non-cordial comment about Armenians. It angered me too, to the point that I wanted to write him. But then I looked at it a little bit from his perspective. The subject of the interview was the US policy on immigration - whether the US has to conduct open borders policy or not, and whether it was justified to grant legal status to all Mexican illegal immigrants, as the Bush administration is proposing. I couldn't quite understand what was he pointing at when referring to the Armenians. There was some element of grotesque in his expression. And I thought what has to be done? Spam him with emails and letters of protest? I don't think that would be an efficient way of addressing the issue. I felt that the best scenario would've been if some strong Armenian Student Organization at some University would've invited him for an Open House meeting, and would've educated him in the Armenian issues, meanwhile trying to understand what is the basis of reservations he has against Armenians. Given that he is the host of the most popular prime-time political hour on TV, under the scenario of success he could provide our side with an opportunity to lay out our case and present it to the public. Obviously, in the tradition of the Fox network, it would've mean that the Turkish side also would be represented. But that is good, I think. Know any Armenian Student Organizations with outspoken leaders?

I am just posting this to bring the previous material up after the thread has been moved to a more appropriate sub-forum.

quote:Originally posted by gamavor: MJ is right when he says that Armenian Political Nationalism resulted of Armenian Cultural Nationalism. I would rather say the Idea for national independence. Gamavor, Actually I disagree somewhat with your interpretation. Even if we agree that, in our case, the idea of Independence has resulted from the Cultural Nationalism, I find it highly questionable whether that’s what the idea of Independence has to result from.

quote:Originally posted by bellthecat: Sections of the Armenian diaspora have actively connived with the Turkish state in making sure nobody researches Armenian sites in Turkey, and they (Armenians) discourage all attempts to preserve these places. Steve Why not. That will prove that Turks are barbarians, wouldn't it?

quote:Originally posted by bellthecat: Another example of Armenian selective blindness? http://www.cnewa.org/cw27%2D4%2Dpp14%2D17.htm The section on Ani has many sentences lifted verbatim from my website. I have no objection to that - the more people that know about Ani the better! What I do object to is the censoring out of any chriticisim of Armenia, specifically the stone quarry. The restorations by Turkey were mentioned, yet what I wrote about the quarry was left out. And not a word about the quarry during the author's visit to the border, although to take those photographs of Ani from the border, the photographer would have been standing right next to the quarry. Steve Steve, I think you should send a note to them, if you feel comfortable with the idea. ies near Ani, my friends consistently tell me that the explosions have been stopped.

quote:Originally posted by ara baliozian: Culture, real culture, is universal -- the same way that Shakespeare or the music of Mozart are. To say that culture may contribute to evil is a contradiction. It is ignorance and the opposite of culture that do that. You are right, Ara. However, Shakespearian or Mozartian cultures do not give rise to cultural nationalism, and are inconsistent with the drivers inherent in any form of nationalism. Very little in our Armenian culture is purely Armenian, with the same token. Normally, anything which is worth being elevated to a level of the label "culture" is of all-human character and universal, much like the Armenian Miniatures, for example. However, at least in my view, cultural nationalism means cultural exclusivity, which is hard for me to accept as a positive value, and its artifact has been and continuous being disaster in the Armenian national consciousness.

I think regardless of Turkish Cultural-Political nationalism, and regardless of how the Turks interpret it, we still can recognise the dynamics of the Armenian Political Nationalism as resulted from the Cultural Nationalism.

quote:Originally posted by timucin: I do not see much difference between cultural nationalism and political nationalism in the long run, especially when it is widely known that most nationalist movements, almost all of them, started first as cultural nationalisms. .... Cultural nationalism is simply nothing, but another example of euphemism for political nationalism. Nationalism of any sort must go. t. Absolutely agree with you, Pigeti.

Havik, I admire sectants, catholics, protestants, orthodox, atheist, gnostics, socialists, capitalists, scientists, artists, etc, based on their merits. On that ground, I don’t see any quality in you which may invite my admiration. In fact, the odor of your presence makes me only to want to vomit. Skunks like you should not even try to position themselves on “mainstream human being grounds.” You have missed your opportunity in your childhood to qualify as mainstream human being. As it concerns to Baliozian, one may agree with him or disagree. I happen to agree with him most of the time, though disagree sometimes. However, you are very unique in your reaction towards him. And I am sure because of one reason – you recognize yourself in his essays, and for whatever reason it hurts you. The strange thing is being who you are doesn’t heart you, and Baloizian’s characterizations do. The other thing is that if you think that by taking on Baloizian, you are going to elevate yourself in the eyes of the readers to the level of his intellectual dominance and prominence, and establish yourself as an equal, you are grossly miscalculating. Many of us have left Armenia for professional purposes, others have done it for economic reasons. However, it is you who doesn’t belong to the future of Armenia, because sooner or later it is going to get on the track and the same way you don’t belong to its present, you wouldn’t belong to its future, too. You just stay in your hen-coop. As a matter of fact, skunks like you don’t even exist in Armenia. Armenia has many problems, but skunks are not part of it. I am indeed faithful to America, since I am an American citizen. Who are you faithful too? I don’t want to make generalizations, since don’t want to insult the innocent Turks, since I prefer the Turks who are faithful to their country, then the Turkish gypsies like you who are not faithful to anyone, and no one may rely on them. To the contrary of your “observations,” people like me are always on the side of the truth, justice and reason. If we think our nation is on the wrong track we wouldn’t hesitate to stand against it. If others are against it, let’s assume Turkey, and we were citizens of Turkey, we wouldn’t hesitate to stand against it (unlike some we know), much the same way we haven’t hesitated to stand against the Soviets. And as to exposing someone here, the only thing you expose here is your stench. This would be my last reply to you, since obviously, I am not an admirer of your stench.

Havik, Haven’t you had enough to go around like a skunk and spray everywhere? Since your arrival to this forum, you have done nothing but have demonstrated being a skunk. You haven't contributed one normal material. All you have done is to attack other members on the subject of what they post. And not once you have expressed an intelligent opinion, or have made sense even when attempting so. The Internet is a generous place. It gives the human failures like you an opportunity to feel important and to “sit around the same table” with the people who you would’ve not had the chance otherwise to receive an attention from. If you cannot behave around the “table,” don’t come out of your hen-coop. Or when you come out, try not to be noticed. Because when you cock-a-doodle-doo, people in the vicinity just want to run away so that to avoid the stench of your droppings and sprays. P.S. MJ has one warning. Garo, please make a note of it. [ August 09, 2001: Message edited by: MJ ]