MJ

ara baliozian Member Member # 271 posted August 24, 2001 06:59 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- STATUS QUO ************************** I don’t have readers; I have critics. Strike that! I don’t have critics; I have commissars who tell me to "Shut up!" "Die," and "Go to hell!" Please note that I am not quoting crazies and hooligans (of whom we have our share) but members of the educated classes, academics, ladies and gentlemen with university degrees. About sixty years ago, when he found himself in a similar situation in Armenia, Zarian could only say and repeat: "Danger! Danger! Danger!" And what happened next? No one paid any attention to his warning. No one gave a damn. And shortly thereafter the Soviets systematically exterminated our ablest men, including members of the Party. We are better off today. No risk of systematic extermination. Who is there to exterminate? Vahe Oshagan, the last intellectual, is dead and he summed up our situation when near the end of his life he declared: "I am ashamed to identify myself as an Armenian." And he too was a member of the Party. -------------------- ara baliozian

ara baliozian Member Member # 271 posted June 23, 2001 07:10 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- NOTES / COMMENTS ******************************** As I have said before and it bears repeating: we may be unique but our problems are not. In a biography of George Orwell I read: "His refusal to be any party’s dog made a political pariah of him and a near pauper." Somewhere Plekhanov writes: "Bourgeois scientists make sure that their theories are not dangerous to God or to capital." Something similar could be said of our academics: they always make sure that their views are not in any way critical of the dominant minority (their sources of income and prestige); but when it comes to outsiders or minor scribblers: they can be as venomous as Turkish cobras. And what is even more astonishing is that they think their readers or the average Armenian is too stupid to see this. History tells us intolerance is as old as mankind and it has claimed millions of victims; common sense tells us you cannot appease intolerance, only expose it; and common decency tells us, to silence those who expose intolerance is to promote criminal conduct. What I find most offensive about us (I am not as familiar with other ethnic groups and if they are all alike I suspect they too have their critics and dissidents) is the disparity between our rhetoric and our actions. We pretend to be smart but we behave like political morons, constantly dividing and subdividing ourselves as if the ego of our petty little sultans were more important than the survival of the nation. -------------------- ara baliozian

ara baliozian Member Member # 271 posted June 20, 2001 11:09 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- BEING USEFUL +++++++++++++++++++ Sometimes I am urged by readers to prove my usefulness by joining one of our institutions, the implication being that words are cheap, writing an exercise in futility, and literature a waste of time. First of all, our institutions have no use for people like me. In their eyes I am a fault-finder, a malcontent, and a whiner. What they want are good soldiers, yes-men, and above all contributors. Men with fat bellies and fatter bank accounts. Believers, yes. Dupes? Certainly! Skeptics, no. Critics, even less. As for literature being a waste of time: this is not an Armenian or civilized concept but one worthy of bloodthirsty barbarians and fascists. Is it conceivable that that’s all we have learned from our former lords and masters? -------------------- ara baliozian

ara baliozian Member Member # 271 posted June 01, 2001 11:15 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MORE EXPLANATIONS ********************************* Baloney is baloney no matter how you slice it. To say that we are losers because we are few is to place the cart before the horse or to confuse cause with effect. It makes more sense to say that we are few because our massacre rate (both "red" and "white") has been high. To say that our military defeats have been moral victories is to rewrite history in order to massage our bruised egos. To say that we are losers because we are peace-loving people surrounded by bloodthirsty savages is to forget that some of the most notoriously ruthless and cruel Byzantine emperors were Armenians, one of whom, Basil II Bulgaroktonous (Bulgar-Slayer) blinded thousands of Bulgarian prisoners of war. More recently, General Antranik has been accused of massacring innocent civilians not only by the Azeris but also by the ARF leadership Before we solve a problem we must understand it, otherwise its solution will elude us. And to define our status as perennial losers we must rely on what others and better men than ourselves have said about it. It makes more sense to say that we are losers because of "brainless leaders" (Avedik Issahakian); or because of "mutual intolerance, divisiveness, envy, treason, betrayal, and a thousand other vices have built permanent nests in our hearts" (Raffi); or because "we survive by cannibalizing one another" (Zarian). You need more explanations? Read our writers, not our chauvinist charlatans and partisan propagandists. -------------------- ara baliozian

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Edward, Check the threads /cgi-bin/forum/ultim...c&f=18&t=000003 and /cgi-bin/forum/ultim...c&f=12&t=000027 for related topics. [ August 31, 2001: Message edited by: MJ ]

quote:Originally posted by THOTH: Of course your comments - spoken like a true believer eh? And as for nations not being Christian...I thought you were a Republican...what gives (LOL) I wouldn't say so. Christ says that if you are a true believer, and you ask the mountain to move, it will do so. Last time I tried, it didn't move. But I am very much interested in theology. Am I Republican? If not in the partisan sense of the word but in the philosophical sense, then very much so. [ August 31, 2001: Message edited by: MJ ]

I will give you the chance of having your last word in the thread as you have indicated. Just deal with that thing on your shoulders. Maybe than you would see the world very differently, and more importantly your place in that world.

Whether I am the creep here or you I would let it to the others to judge - all your postings are unedited, as well as mine.

quote:Originally posted by THOTH: I understand your critique concerning the Armenian Church...but do you go far to say that Armenians who follow such practices/doctrine are not/cannot be (true) Christians (I hear this sort of thing all the time from some of my evangelical/charismatic friends...and perhaps the essence of their arguments has a kernal of truth - from that perspective) - Regardless of the subject of our discussion, I think very few Armenians may qualify as Christians in the evangelical sense of the word. Besides, it is impossible for nation to be Christian or not. Christianity is a personal category.

Nooo.. I am tired of it... Gotto run. Have a meeting 30 miles away.

I don't know if you think I said something disparaging towards you in some way or such - if so I am sorry. Again - I think you are doing a great job here (just a little draconian and perhaps overly critical [and competitive it seems to me] at times). Not at all. I was just trying to understand what you were referring to. Besides, I knew that the comment I questioned was not directed at me. All I was trying was to make you to be more explicit, rather than expecting the reader to understand your mind. Just the same - I think Steve has some very serious and legitimate points...(and I think you are considering them more than he believes you are - IMO) If I would’ve not considered his points, I would’ve not gotten out of my way pursuing the issue. I also think he has some personal problems dealing with people (I sugggest you peruse some of my more detailed comments to him on Thorny's forum to get more of an appreciation of this if you care). You can find similar assertions from me in this thread. I am (or more accurratly could be) hurt from some of the accusations Steve has made towards Armenians - not that they are necessarily all wrong - just perhaps exaggerated/overgeneralized/meanly said etc - and I think these comments are out of line (but I also think that this is just Steve - not ideal in terms of compromise, consideration and civility). He has zero credibility in my eyes as far as the issues outside the archeological-historical realm are concerned. And it is not something that I enjoy claiming. Months ago he complained that AGBU has not financed his proposed project to make a documentary on Ani. I know that in such issues the channel through which such proposals are routed, as well as the format of the proposal is concerned may make all the difference in the world. I pledged him support in routing it through the right channel – he didn’t even reply – he needs more the issue than its solution. He brought to our attention (or was it Thorny?) that explosions are taking place near Ani. It was the first time I, and I am sure many of us, learned about it. This was something ideal for him to open his quintessential racist and bigoted mouth, as much as he alleges racism from Armenians. Just read his postings here and there. I am just eagor to see him finally bring up the qualities of his “blue blood.” Rather than to hyperventilate in the Hye Forum, I proposed to appeal to the President of Armenia with a request to stop the explosions, and promised to bring together a text of an appeal, which I did, and I posted it in the Private forum until the facts of the continuing explosions were checked. AT that time, we cam across with press releases from the Ministery of Foreign Affairs of Armenia that the explosions were going to be stopped by May 31, 2001. So, I considered it was late and pointless for us to step in. Nevertheless, I asked my friends in Yerevan to check if the explosions have stopped or not. But he brought evidence that the explosions were continuing beyond the promised date. Therefore, I appealed to the Armenian Embassy in the US and to the Ministry of Foreign affairs requesting clarifications – one of the privileges being a moderator with the Hye Forum – I figured I qualify as a member of Press. Despite the delays, both institutions gave me, in my view, very satisfactory and professional answers within the limits of their procedural protocols. You know Belthecat’s reaction. He just likes to go around wining and throwing irresponsible declarations. Such a safe thing to do anonymously, and especially over the Internet. He doesn’t try to do something to reverse the problem, and we have a lot of them. He could’ve appealed to UNESCO, could’ve appealed to the Academy of Sciences of Armenia, to the President, to AIM, Armenian and other newspapers around the world, etc. But instead, he prefers having the problem, then going full mouth about it. Imagine the annals of archeology writing about the third great man (after Marr and Gurdjiev) visiting Ani, and sole handedly saving it from the Armenian and Turkish savages. People like him thrive on the negative. If there is no negative, they lose their agenda. I can continue, but I think you get the picture.

No, I am not kidding. You don’t hear me rising against the tradition of Vartevar, for example, right? Vartevar is another pagan tradition (cult of water) still preserved in the ceremonies of the Armenian Church. Regardless of one’s religious orientation or the complete lack of any such orientation, the issue I have raised is fundamental to Christian beliefs. The primary message of the Christianity is that God has sent his Son to the Earth to be sacrificed and so that to save the humanity from the sins they have committed. In many instances in the New Testament, Christ is referred to as “the lamb.” Therefore, the ultimate sacrifice has already been made with the crucifixion of Christ. Any continuing sacrifices of lambs, or whatever, are only constitution of one’s non-recognition of the message beyond Christ’s sacrifice, and thus, denial of the most fundamental basics of Christianity. And in the case of the Armenian Church it is not surprising, since it is not a faith based or evangelical establishment but rather tradition oriented and self-serving social institution. [ August 31, 2001: Message edited by: MJ ]

OK. I guess this exchange between us is much about nothing.

Actually, I was referring to your next posting.

The expectations/hopes on dignity, etc.

Thoth, I have no inerest in harassing neither the interesting ones nor the non-intersting ones. I just expect/hope basic dignity and common sense. Btw, this has nothing to do with you, personally.

Could you be more explicit, THOTH? I couldn't follow you. [ August 31, 2001: Message edited by: MJ ]

Aghtchik, for me, it just insults my intelligence to observe a pagan tradition presented as a Christian ceremony, when the essence of the ceremony itself disseminates the meaning of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

quote:Originally posted by Aghtchik: Again, you have a mutual concern: preserving/protecting the church. How can that lead to arguments like these? Perhaps that is the question here...

Now talk about the "Ottomanness..."

I see. Good to have a God of Knowledge in this forum.

What a hero...

He won a difficult match against the Chiliean Massu today, and advanced to the third round.

All in due time, Aghtchik. Just patience. That's all that is expected.