MJ

quote:Originally posted by gamavor: My main objection to his ideas was introduction of the Bible Law(God's Law) as an effective Law in all matters concerning human society. Maybe. But he was true to his belief, and it apears that he has lived hs life according to his doctrin, at least.

quote:Originally posted by gamavor: They demolished - We demolished! After all if one is ready to die for his faith and freedom is it worthy to try to convert him, especially when you have uninvited guests around your borders? The only difference is that after the battle, at least shortly after dealing with their problems at their borders, they stil had all the military might they needed, and we didn't have it for another 500 years - till the times of Ashod Yergat. quote:Originally posted by gamavor: Many Armenians (not only Easterners, maintained their faith, going through torture, heavy taxation, humiliation, etc. My point was that, having in mind the Turkish power at the time it would not be so difficult to kill or to convert the most stubborn ones. Turks, cleverly changed their policies somewhere in the 17 century, when certain administrative reforms were introduced. Perhaps. But if you would look at it from the point of view of what was the Christian Armenian population in Historic Armenia, sey around 1200 AD, and what was it right before 1915, what is the conclusion that you come to, especially if also making some guestimates on the population growth?

I post the following material from the Chalcedon Foundation so that to give the readers a better idea on the ideology of Rushdoony. Jerry Falwell's eschatological schizophrenia By P. Andrew Sandlin © 2001 WorldNetDaily.com In his recent WorldNetDaily column, Jerry Falwell furnished an update on his fledgling Tim LaHaye School of Prophecy at Liberty University, "a comprehensive school that delves into the mysteries of the Bible as they relate to world events leading to Christ's imminent return." I find this announcement staggering, in light of Falwell's tireless efforts to turn our depraved, decadent nation back to God and to revive a truly Christian culture. Let me first gratefully acknowledge that Jerry is one of the most courageous, outspoken Christians of our time. On almost all of the great, controversial issues confronting our modern culture, he is clearly on the biblical side: abortion, homosexuality, communism, ****ography, state education, free markets, missile defense and so on. In the '70s, he helped start Moral Majority, a group dedicated to taking America back from the liberalism and secularism that had captured it by the late '60s. His perspective on major TV talk shows (both network and cable) is almost unfailingly right down the line with the Bible. He presses diligently for a recovery of biblical truth and morality in our society; he is the Christian that the liberals most love to hate. The defeatism of dispensationalism The thing that has puzzled me about Jerry's unflagging efforts to restore biblical decency in our culture is his eschatology, highlighted most recently in the imminent (!) Tim LaHaye School of Prophecy. Theologians will tell you that "eschatology" is one's view of the future – how it all will turn out in the end. Jerry holds to the popular idea of dispensationalism. This is, not surprisingly, the eschatology undergirding Tim LaHaye's popular "Left Behind" series. It holds that the moral conditions of the world and the church are destined get increasingly worse. When they get almost unbearably bad, the Lord Jesus will return in the clouds to "rapture" the living saints up to heaven. Then, the world will face a seven-year "tribulation period," during which a shadowy political figure known as the Antichrist will take over the world; persecute Jews and (new) Christians; and set up a final, cataclysmic encounter with Jesus Christ, who will return to earth (the third time) to liquidate the Antichrist and his cohorts and set up a 1,000-year earthly reign in Jerusalem. This is the basic scheme of Jerry's and Tim's popular eschatology, which will be taught at the new school of prophecy. The promise of postmillennialism Jerry's Liberty University, and the Chalcedon Foundation, of which I am executive vice president, are on an eschatological collision course. Let me explain. We both agree that Christ will return one day visibly to earth ("The Second Coming"). We disagree radically on what will precede that great event. While Liberty and LaHaye are dispensational, we at Chalcedon are postmillennial. We believe that Christ is already reigning from the heavens (Acts 2:29-36). He extends His kingdom in the earth by His Spirit, using redeemed humans, Christians (Acts 2:14-21). The Bible teaches that Christ will return after all human enemies are placed under His feet (1 Cor. 15:24-27). Jesus indicates that it will be a good, long time between His First Coming and His Second Coming (Mk. 13:32-37; Lk. 12:37-48). Between these two Comings, the kingdom of God will grow slowly, almost imperceptibly (Mt. 13:31-33). But it will one day overwhelm the earth. Then will be fulfilled the great Old Testament prophecy that "[T]he earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea" (Hab. 2:14). There will be a fully Christian culture on earth – not only after Christ's Second Coming, but also before. Jerry's contradictions Now, it is easy to see how this view comports with the idea of a Christian culture that both Jerry and I are working for. The problem is that Jerry doesn't hold it. In other words, his eschatology conflicts with his idea of Christians' social responsibility. After all, if we are dead certain that the world is destined to get more depraved just before Jesus returns, and if we are equally convinced that He is coming very soon, why get involved trying to oppose the nanny-state, homosexuality, ****ography, abortion and other social sins rotting our culture? In fact, if we oppose them, aren't we just getting in the way of God's work, since we know that work will be ultimately unsuccessful? Maybe Liberty University and the Chalcedon Foundation are delaying the precious Second Advent of Christ by trying to hold back the tide of evil destined to flood the world just before Christ returns! No, this is silly. It is right to work to turn our nation around for the Lord, and it is wrong to believe that these efforts are all for nothing. The end is not in sight, but a Christian society could be. I do not ask Jerry to relax his vital work for Christian culture. I ask him to bring his eschatology into line with his cultural mission. Not to do this is to maintain a mind-bending schizophrenia that leads to all sorts of ironies and contradictions. After all, if Jesus is coming at any moment, why start a Tim LaHaye School of Prophecy? Why all the planning and effort? If the school's stated objective is, in Jerry's words, to teach "the mysteries of the Bible as they relate to world events leading to Christ's imminent return," how can we honestly believe it is "imminent"? Jerry's school is scheduled to start in a couple of years. But won't we all be raptured by that time, and won't the Antichrist have closed and boarded up the Tim LaHaye School of Prophecy? Moreover, why worry about abolishing abortion, exposing statism, and decreasing homosexuality if the rapture is "imminent"? If we work for a godly culture, we need to be assured that our efforts will not be in vain (1 Cor. 15:58). We need a divine guarantee that "God hath put [past tense!] all things under Christ's feet" (Eph. 1:22). We then go forward with the assurance that before Christ returns, all of His human enemies will be subjugated to Him. This is the confidence that propels us to work to bring America back to God. Unfortunately, Jerry Falwell's sense of Christian cultural obligation conflicts sharply with his eschatology. As long as he teaches his students that "the end is near," that as we near the end, the world will become progressively more evil, and that all our efforts to clean up our culture will eventually come to nothing, then he will never convince them that they need to throw themselves into the task to which he has tirelessly committed himself – turning our nation back to God. Jerry needs to abandon his eschatological schizophrenia and embrace biblical postmillennialism. It is this eschatology which fuels the vision of a Christian America and a Christian world. Andrew Sandlin is executive vice president of the Chalcedon Foundation which since 1965 has been dedicated to applying historic, biblical Christianity in today's world. He is the author of "Christianity: Bulwark of Liberty" and several other works. http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article....RTICLE_ID=23749

quote:Originally posted by gamavor: MJ, No need to search for some secret plans that the Church strike with the Persians (I wish it was so). The reasons why Persians were somewhat reluctant to enforce back Zoroastranianism is money. If you emancipate somebody, you need to treat him as equal. For the same reason Ottoman Turks stopped Islamization of the territories occupied by them, realizing that reduction of the Christian populace would affect badly the State Budget, especially for a highly bureaucratic state structure as the Ottoman Empire. Of course people like Ali, Hasan, Mehmet and others will tell you that Greeks, Armenians and other Christians in the Ottoman Empire survived thanks to the “turkish humanism”. As to the Doctrine of the Armenian Church - it is Crystal clear. If I have time, I will post some interesting materials, since I was not able to find any on line. So, they didn't understand it before Avarair, and understood it immediately after demolishing the Armenian Army? Ottoman Turks have systematically enforced Islamization of the Armenian population of Anatolia for centuries through taxation policies and terror. Only a minor part of the Armenians on the territory of historic Armenia has maintained its Christian identity throughout the 7 centuries.

My name is Martin. I am aware of a lot of similarities of the Paulician and Tondraletsi doctrines, and am used to think of the Tondraketsi movement as an evolution of Paulician’s. However, I have not come across testimonies of their differences. I would be interested in learning about it.

I appreciate the honor given to me in your address, and I am sure that the book can be found at least in some library. However, if you have looked around in this forum, you would see that many of us go through the burden of making materials of common interest available online, as much as its within the limits of our possibilities, or as much as our time and energy allows. If you cannot make the passage subject to interest available here, that is fine, too. My appeal to you was only indicative of my interest, and I am sure of some others in this Forum, in the subject.

quote:Originally posted by khodja: "Armenian Christianity" by Aharon Sapsezian, published by Armenian Missionary Association of America, p. 29-31. Anay online refrences to it?

quote:Originally posted by khodja: NOT TRUE! Tondrakian beliefs were the anti-thesis of Paulician beliefs. The two ""heresies"" were diametrically opposed. What's the basis of such statement?

For Timucin: 2. The Use of Rising Armenian National Awareness as an Excuse for Liquidation The international efforts of the European Powers may in fact have caused Armenians more harm than good. By raising consciousness and hope of the oppressed people within Turkey, without concurrently enhancing their power, international actors created a situation in which the Ottomans had both the incentive and the excuse for the final resolution of the “Armenian problem.” Encouraged by the promises of the Treaty of Berlin, the Armenians experienced a new sense of national consciousness, which in turn engendered rising expectations. Sporadic displays of assertiveness began to erode their tradition of passively enduring the abuse endemic to the Ottoman system. Additionally, émigré Armenian individuals formed committees in the capitals of Europe to protest these abuses and to push for the implementation of promised reforms. As the Ottoman regime resisted these agitations and refused to execute the reforms, in any meaningful way, Armenian revolutionary cells emerged within and without the Empire and prepared for combat. In a report to Paris entitled Expose historique de la question armenianne , long-term French Ambassador Paul Cambon traced the genesis of the “Armenian question” to this period. He wrote: A high ranking Turkish official told me, “the Armenian question does not exist but we shall create it.”…Up until 1881 the idea of Armenian independence was non-existent. The masses simply yearned for reforms, dreaming only of normal administration under Ottoman rule… The inaction of the Porte served the vitiate the good will of Armenians. The reforms have not been carried out. The exactions of the officials remained scandalous and justice was not improved… from one end the Empire to the other, there is rampant corruption of officials, denial of justice and insecurity of life… The Armenian diaspora began denouncing the administrative misdeeds, and in the process managed to transform the condition of simple administrative ineptness into one of racial persecution. It called to the attention of Europe the violations by the Turks of the Treaty of Berlin and thereby summoned up the image of Armenian autonomy in the minds of the Armenian population. France did not respond to the Armenian overtures but the England and Gladstone did: The Armenian revolutionary movement took off from England[100]… as if it were not enough to provoke Armenian discontent, the Turks were glad to amplify it by the manner in which they handled it. In maintaining that Armenians were conspiring, the Armenians ended up engaging in conspiracy; in maintaining that there was no Armenia, the Armenians ended up conjuring the reality of her existence…. The harsh punishment of conspirators, the maintenance in Armenia of veritable regime of terror, arrests, murders, rapes, all this shows that Turkey is taking pleasure in precipitating events [in relation to] an inoffensive population. In reality the Armenian Question is nothing but an expression of antagonism between England and Russia…. Where does Armenia begin, and where does it end?[101] Later in the report Cambon prophetically questioned the reasonableness of transporting Armenians to Mesopotamia, a solution the Ottoman government was reportedly contemplating[note that this passage is written by Cambon in 1884 – MJ]. Mesopotamia would later serve as the valley of the Armenian Genocide. From Vahakn Dadrian's "Genocide as a Problem of National and International Law: The World War I. Armenian Case and its Contemporary Legal Ramifications" published in Yale Journal of International Law, v. 14, no. 2, 1989, pp. 251-52. [100] In an exchange with his German colleague Saurma, Russian Ambassador Nelildof commented that the Armenians were frustrated not only by the lack of any tengible results from European intervention, but also by the ensuring massacres. 10 Die Grosse Politik Der Europaischen Kabinete 1871-1914, supra note 83, Doc. No. 2426, at 69. Seee also supra note 90. [101] 11 Documents Diplomatiques, supra note 83, Dec. No. 50 (Feb. 20, 1894) at 71-74 (1947); see also Livre Jaune. Affairs Armeniens. Projets de reformes dans l’Empire Ottoman 1893-1897. Doc. No. 6, at 10-13 (1897). P.S. I appologize for my earlier typo of the data 1984 instead of 1884. Now it is fixed. [ November 12, 2001: Message edited by: MJ ]

quote:Originally posted by khodja: MJ, Numerous prominent and Armewnian community leaders in Ottoman Turkey and in Persia were given the title "Khodja." You should read about the Khodjas of Nor Julfa. Too bad... However, I have just defined for you the meaning of the title "Khodja." quote:Originally posted by khodja: For years the conservative Armenians controlled thought in the American community. I am just trying to present a balanced viewpoint. You claim that all I do is denigrate those who don't agree with me. You seem to ignore the fact that I have had somewhat positive comments about Deukmejian, Poochigian and McCain, all three of who belong to the opposite party from myself, but who are reasonable men and distinguished public servants. I think you are grossly misrepresenting the picture, however, I have no interest in engaging on that subject.

Dear Ali, With some [minor] exceptions, the serious studies on the subject of the Genocide by the Armenian scholars have a history of not more than some 15 years. Though there is a huge body of publications by the Armenian side on the subject for at least 80 years, these publications have primarily been of either eyewitness accounts character, which we can agree that is important, I think, or emotional discharges about the Turkish, or more accurately "Islamic barbarism," or under the best scenario of a character of gathering corroborative documents. The systematic attempts of putting things in proper political and causational-implicational perspective have not too long of a history, as I mentioned above. In Soviet Armenia that level of professional research has almost been absent, and the research has primarily served a purpose of terrifying further the Armenian nation through the reiteration of the fear of another Genocide awaiting us on the other side of the border, in case we may think to pull out from under the dominance of the Russians/USSR, and in Diaspora it has served under the best scenario the cause of preservation of Armenian identity under the very difficult conditions, through very inexpedient and unprofessional reiteration of the horror of the Genocide. But primarily, in the eyes of the Armenian masses, the Genocide has been not a professional subject, but family history. Of the top of my head, I can point you immediately to Vahakn Dadrian's fundamental work called "Genocide as a Problem of National and International Law: The World War I. Armenian Case and its Contemporary Legal Remifications" published in Yale Journal of International Law, v. 14, no. 2, 1989. The publication is accompnaied with vast Bibliography consisting of materials of Turkish and European Archives, Armenian, Turkish and other scholars. There are a couple of his articles available in the online domain, which we have made available in our forum. As to providing you with some references on Armenian Art, Music, Architecture, History, in general, let me think a little bit about it. There are some online materials, and some are available in our forum. But give me some time to gather my thoughts, and I will give you some meaningful references, hopefully. Meanwhile, if others in the forum may come up with good ideas, without referring you, as you warn us to 1000 different publications, I would ask them to step in.

I knew it was Mike/Aghmuk.

Ali, Please clarify what material do you mean when referring to the "1)," "2)" etc. It seems like there are few such materials with numerated paragraphs.

Dear Ali, Then I have to apologize for deleting the second material. I though it was identical to the first one, and deleted it. The reason you got it repeated was that you clicked on the Quotation sign, which performs a function of a reply, preserving in bold face the material fo the previous article. If you want to edit, you have to click the icon with a picture of a white page and a pen. Sorry again for the inconvenience.

Now what this is about?

Aaron, I cannot formulate the steps to be taken so that to succeed in establishing balanced and complimentary Regional Security System. At least because it is less of a conceptual issue and more of a governance issue, though I admit that it is very difficult to establish – primarily because it is more up to the powers not to the Caucasian States. One thing is obvious to me that being in the sphere of influence of one or another Regional Power of Superpower, Armnia’s misery is cgoing to continue, as well as the misery of the rest of the Caucasian States. I think the formula you mentioned above was something like 3+2, wasn’t it how it was called at the time? One or another way, I think compromises will be made by the three parties. The issue is whether compromises would be made between the US/Turkey, Iran and Russia. I think Der Bedrosian achieved some success with Turkey, even though he didn’t achieve much of what he anticipated or desired. At least he set the course, on which the subsequent administration built further, as much as on the level of pre-governing slogans they claimed the opposite. The only difference in international issues between the current Administration and the previous one is their international push for the recognition of the Genocide. This was the only serious mistake of Der Bedrosian administration at the time, though I understand their logic not to push for it on a state level. That was a miscalculation, in my view. And Armenia’s push for recognition has yielded results – the recognition by France, for example. I agree with your interpretations regarding Karabagh. Only would like to note that eventually, the issue of the compromise on the subject of Karabagh is really between Karabagh and Azerbaijan, as much as one may suspect that such a statement presents political maneuvering from the Armenian side. In any case, I think it is neither in Armenia’s National Security Interests nor in Karabagh’s to have full integration of Karabagh into Armenia until the broader regional issues are addressed. On the other hand, it is not in Azerbaijan’s National Security Interests to have Karabagh independent, without having some broader issues addressed. They would rather tolerate Karabagh inside Armenia than independent. Therefore, until the broader problems have found solution, I expect nothing but deadlock in the Karabagh issue. Nothing that I say is new. This understanding has existed in Armenia at least 12 years ago. The issue is the implementation of it, as you understand. But there is already some progress along these lines.

Ali, That'not a problem. You can always edit/delete your materials. Check the Icons that appear on the top of each posting.

Gamavor, I don’t see why, necessarily, the Cross is the way to emphasize the Human nature of Christ. As far as I know, Protestants/Paulicians have no argument about that nature. I somehow am hesitant to accept that the Armenian Church has really good understanding about the dual nature of Christ. If it has, then it has difficulty throughout ages to articulate its position, and as late as a year ago found itself compelled to make new statements along those lines. But I do agree with your interpretations of the senselessness of the sacrifice of Christ in the absence of His Human Nature. However, Apostle Paul warns as to not go after the symbols of faith. Ironically, many ordinary Armenians would describe us as “khachabasht” – this is a historically established primitivism, which the Armenian Church has been rather tolerant towards. As far as Avarair goes, I disagree that the Persian dominance was nominal in Armenia. In fact, throughout almost the 500 years of dominance before the Arab conquest, only two Marzbans have been Armenian. I think the Avarais is the biggest lie in Armenian history. Not in terms of the basic facts about its occurrence and the outcome, but in terms of the beyond the curtain events. It is obvious to me that after the Battle there was nothing stopping Persians to “convert” the Armenian elite back to Zorastrianism – they had all the power in the world, and for almost 500 years Armenian have not even been able to bring another army together, after having 66,000 people Army annihilated for reasons which I find hard to interpret or understand. Therefore, I am sure that the Church has cut a deal with the Persians. What was the deal? I am very interested in knowing. At the expense of what? One thing which is clear to me is that at the time, there were enormous geopolitical perturbations in the region, defining the East-West confrontation, and Armenia was caught in the middle. There is much to understand what has taken place here, and it is time to leave aside the primitive and illogical presentations of our history. P.S. Opening this thread I mean to focus on the historic aspects of the underlying events. We can have the discussions of religious nature in the Religion forum.

quote:Originally posted by gamavor: Hard to disagree with that. They turned their backs to Tradition and ceremony and embraced the Phoenician signs. Tell me more about it.

Isn't everything else that you have said in this forum one sided, too? Whether his views are extreme or not I don't know - that would be in the eyes of the beholder. As far as the Mecca statement is concerned, isn't it exactly what Khoja means? And why are you insulted by "Mustafa?" It is a man's name. Would you be insulted if I call you Jacob, per se? Finally, since your arrival to this forum, have you done anything other than insulting and demonizing others, totally out of the context, while they are not even represented in this forum?

Dear Ali, All is fine. I understood your motivations precisely. Just thank you for your posting. Have a good night.

Well, the history of Protestantism along with their doctrine demonstrates that they have remained/evolved as oriented towards faith rather than tradition or ceremony. As far as worshiping the Cross is concerned, maybe there is a little bit exaggeration in my statement, bit just a little bit. Additionally, the Armenian Orthodox Church while being a well defined institutionally speaking, is not well defined doctrinewise. It is still searching for its soul, as demonstrated, for example, by the documents signed by the last two Catholici with the Roman Church. Moreover, just a slightly meticulous analysis shows that the very foundations of the Church effective the Battle of Avarire are surrounded with a clout of misinformation, softely speaking. It is known that the mentioned Battle was a fight for the right to worship Christ. However, it is also known that the fight has been lost to the Persian Army. Moreover, Armenia has already been under the Persian dominance before the battle, and has remained so for centuries after the Battle. Meanwhile, the date of the Battle precisely coincides with the Calcedonian Counsel, to which the Armenian Church doesn't send its delegation. Subsequently, while starting the Battle of Avarair and not losing it, Persians, who were allegedly opposed to the Christianity of the Armenian elite, let Armenians continue to immerse even further into Christianity. Does all this make sense? Not to me... If you can make sense of this logical oxymoron, please help me to understand it. [ September 03, 2001: Message edited by: MJ ]

quote:Originally posted by gamavor: The movement and the teachings of Paulicians originated in Armenia as early as 4 century AD. Their leader and spiritual teacher was Boghos. Many scholars regard them as the first Protestants. It is true that unlike their most fervent followers (Bogomils - who were kind of Hippies), Paulicians were warlike. They believed that they should fought with sword in their hands against the Satan (Official Church), and thanks to their "efforts" lots of churches were destroyed. Around 6-7 century AD they were too numerous in Thrace and even they proposed to the King Boris I of Bulgaria to accept their teachings as official Christian doctrine in 9century when the Bulgarians were converted into Christianity. Some of their settlements are still preserved. There is one village close to Gabrovo in Bulgaria, called Armeni. If you go there you might find out how the ancient Armenians look like! I would love to go there one day. How do they look like? From all I understand, they have been rather militant. However, the allegations on them destroying Churches are exaggerated in my view. Agatangeghos describes just one such event, and even that of destroying a Cross. And I can see their reasoning, The Armenian Orthodox Church had/has converted the worship of Jesus Christ to worship of Cross, which is not what Christianity is about. From all I have read, Paulicians were the real Christians, and they were the real Orthodox (in the genuine sense of this word). Their portrayal as non-Orthodox is a misleading attempt in my view. And indeed, they are the founders of Christian Reformism (or better to say the movement of returning Christianity to its real roots), which has later evolved into Protestant denomination, reforming the entire European non-Catholic thought. Paulicians have suffered great deal in the hands of Catholics, too. As a matter of fact, the Catholic Church along with the Armenian Church have misrepresented for the history the Paulician doctrine. And I am not talking about their joint slaughter of hundreds of thousands of Paulician Armenians.

The Sabbath Church in Asia The Church located in Asia Minor were termed Paulicians. The Paulicians had developed there for some hundreds of years. C. A. Scott was to say, of the Paulicians, that they were: an anti-Catholic sect which originated in the 7th century (possibly earlier), experienced many alternations of imperial favor and ruthless persecution, remained influential till the 12th cent., and is not without descendants in Eastern Europe today. Making its appearance first on the eastern borders of the empire, and having its natural home in Armenia, Mesopotamia and N. Syria, it spread, partly through propaganda and partly through the transplantation of its votaries, westward through Asia Minor, then into Eastern Europe to establish new centres in the Balkan peninsula. The specific opinions which have been ascribed to it include a dualistic conception of the government if not the origin of the world, an Adoptionist doctrine of the Person of Christ, a vehement and stubborn rejection of Mariolatry and the worship of saints and images, a similar rejection of sacramental symbolism, and a special emphasis on adult baptism as the only valid form. The basis of these opinions is found in a concentration on Scripture as the sole and sufficient authority to the exclusion of tradition and the 'teaching of the Church' (ERE, art. Paulicians,. Vol. 9, p. 695). The Paulicians increased greatly in numbers under Sergius Tychicus and they were found chiefly among the hardy mountain people of the Taurus. Scott says that alike as defenders of the empire and as objects of imperial persecution, they showed the greatest stubbornness and courage (ibid., p. 697). They were protected by Constantine Copronymous (741-775) and invited to settle in Thrace. Nicephorus (802-811) employed them in the protection of the empire on its eastern frontier. Michael and Leo V [the latest one is known as Armenian-MJ] ruthlessly persecuted them. But the Paulicians were too numerous, too warlike, and too well organised to be dragooned into orthodoxy. They resisted, revolted, and even retaliated by raiding Asia Minor from their mountain fastness. After twenty years of comparative tranquillity they were exposed to still more violent persecution under Theodora (842-857), which under Basil developed into a war of extermination (see Krumbacher, p. 1075).[another Armenian-MJ] The Paulicians were driven into the arms of the Saracens, and with some assistance from them, under the leadership of an able ruler Chrysocheir, they not only successfully resisted the imperial forces but forced them back and pillaged Asia Minor up to its western shores (Scott, ibid.). This demonstrates two aspects of the Paulicians. Firstly they used arms and secondly the Muslims regarded them as a separate group to Trinitarian Christians and rendered them assistance and protection. This protection was not confined to Asia Minor, but also extended into Spain. The distinction between the groups was known and preserved in the Koran. The comment by Christ against the Pergamum Church, which might be identified with this sect, is thus made more intelligible when he says in Revelation 2:16, that he will fight against [those holding false doctrines among them] with the sword of his mouth. Scott records that a second deportation of Paulicians, on a large scale, from Armenia to Thrace, was carried out by John Tzimiskes (970) (ibib.). Latin crusaders found the sect in Syria in the eleventh century and Lady Mary Montagu, found them in the neighbourhood of Philippoplis, in the eighteenth century (Scott, op. Cit.). In Europe they developed into or amalgamated with the Bogomils (q.v.), and their views and influences were propagated throughout the Middle Ages by various anti-Catholic sects - e.g., Cathari, Albigenses - whose filiation with the Paulicians is probable, though difficult to trace. Their name, like 'Manichaean,' became in turn a generic description of any of these movements which opposed the development of Catholic hierarchy and doctrine (Scott, ibid.). Scott says it is impossible to decide whether the Pope-licani, the Piphles of Flanders, or the Publicani, who were condemned and branded at Oxford in 1160, were directly descended from the Paulicians, or bore their name as a term of reproach. Scott says the Paulicians are best understood as a section, in that continuous stream of anti-Catholic and anti-hierarchical thought and life, which runs parallel with the steam of 'orthodox' doctrine and organisation, practically throughout the history of the Church (cf. Krumbacher, p. 970, the Paulicians' setzten einer verweltlichen Reichsorthodoxie ein echt apostolisches Biblechristentum entgegen). F. C. Conybeare (The Key of Truth, Oxford, 1898) holds they were Adoptionist in their Christology; held three sacraments of repentance, baptism and the Body and Blood of Christ (see also p. 124), declared infant baptism invalid, denied the perpetual virginity of Mary, and rejected the doctrines of purgatory and the intercession of saints, and the use of pictures, crosses and incense. Thus the movement of the Church from Asia Minor into Europe, took place over several centuries and as can be seen above, was effected by word of mouth and the relocation of peoples. The denigration of the doctrines of the groups, is undertaken by the orthodox who, by and large, have written the histories of the matter. East European Sabbath-keeping It is evident, that the main works of the Sabbath-keeping Church, did not take place in Europe, until the works of the churches initiated from Smyrna (termed the Smyrna era) and those initiated from the Paulicians in Asia Minor (termed the Pergamos era) had run their course. Indeed it is obvious, that the work in Gaul was commenced from and was in contact with the Church in Smyrna, until after the death of Irenæus. The work was disjointed and uncoordinated, until the relocation of the Paulicians into Europe. The spread of the Sabbath-keeping Christian faith, had been noted (below) to move from Thrace into Albania and Bulgaria, with the Paulicians. In the ninth century this dispute had erupted in Bulgaria. It is noted that: Bulgaria in the early season of its evangelization had been taught that no work should be performed on the Sabbath (Responsa Nicolai Papæ I and Con-Consulta Bulgarorum, Responsum 10, found in Mansi, Sacrorum Concilorum Nova et Amplissima Collectio, Vol. 15; p. 406; also Hefele, Conciliengeshicte, Vol. 4, sec. 478). Bogaris, ruling prince of Bulgaria, wrote to Pope Nicholas I on a number of questions regarding this matter. In answer to Question 6 re bathing and work on the Sabbath, he replied: Ques. 6 - Bathing is allowed on Sunday. Ques. 10 - One is to cease from work on Sunday, but not also on the Sabbath (Hefele, 4 346-352, sec. 478). Nicholas was declared excommunicated by a counter synod in Constantinople. Photius, Patriarch of Constantinople, accused the Papacy Against the canons, they induced the Bulgarians to fast on the Sabbath (Photius, von Kard, Hergenrother, 1, 643). The Sabbath question became a bitter dispute between the Greeks and the Latins. Neale commented on this in regard to the split in 1064 (A History of the Holy Eastern Church, Vol 1, p. 731). The Athingians (or Athingani) of the ninth centure, were held by Cardinal Hergenrother, to have stood in intimate relation with Emperor Michael II (821-829) and he states that they held the Sabbath (Kirchengeschicte, 1, 527). The Athingani were a sect in Phrygia, who were referred to as Melchizedekites by Timotheus of Constantinople in his Reception of Heretics (see ERE, art. Sects, Vol. XI, p. 319b). Whitley says here that they: observed the Sabbath day; as they touched no one, they were popularly called Athingani. This reads as if they observed the Jewish rules of cleanliness, but the information is too scanty to trace their origin and tenets (ibid.). After the defeat of Chrysocheir, leader of the Paulicians in the ninth century, and the destruction of Tephrike, their stronghold, they were decimated and dispersed. They existed in scattered communities in Armenia, in Asia Minor and especially in the Balkan Peninsula. In the middle of the ninth century, they experienced revival in Armenia under Smbat, who according to Conybeare may have been the author of the Key of Truth (see ERE, art. Paulicians, Vol. IX, p. 697). Headquartered at the town of Thondrak, they received the name of Thondrakians. Another branch from the same root is probably to be found in the sect known as 'Athingani' referred to by Theophanes (Chronographia, 413), and yet another in the 'Selikians.' The biographer of the patriarch Methodius claims for him the credit of having converted to orthodoxy one Selix and his followers, who held 'Manichæan opinions - opinions which in detail correspond with those charged against the Paulicians in Cod. Scor. (Ibid.). The second deportation under John Tzimiskes (970) then occurred. It is thus seen, that these sects are all interrelated and are attacked as having heretical doctrines, by the Trinitarians and broken up into different sects by name and persecuted where possible. The Paulicians were also iconoclasts and that appears to be consistent with what we know of the Sabbatati and Cathari in Europe. The Paulicians always objected to their rivals worship of the Cross (Armenian, Chazus); therefore the term Chazitzarii, Chazinzarians (Staurolatræ) seems to denote no small sect, but the Established Church of Armenia as viewed by the Paulicians (Whitley ERE, art. Sects, p. 319). Troitsky in his article on the Greek Orthodox Church (ERE, Vol. VI, p. 427), notes that the Athingani were linked to Judaism. They are grouped with, but not specifically identified as Paulicians. Troitsky seems to group the Paulicians as having a belief of a mystic character, which we know to be incorrect, from the extant works. There seems little doubt that the Paulicians and the Athingani, or the sects in Asia Minor, kept the Sabbaths and the food laws and carried these practices into Europe. http://www.holocaustrevealed.org/english/s/p122.html [ December 02, 2001: Message edited by: MJ ] [ December 23, 2001: Message edited by: MJ ]

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Ñ³í³ë³ñ³·Ý³Ñ³ïÙ³Ý ¨ ѳëϳÝáõÙ »Ýù, áñ ¹³ ÙdzÛÝ ù³ç³É»ñáõÙ ¿ ×ÝßáÕÝ»ñÇÝ: ØdzųٳݳÏ, ³ß˳ñÑÁ ã³÷³½³Ýó ÷áùñ³ó»É ¿, áñå»ë½Ç ϳñáճݳÝù Ù»½ µ³ÅÇÝ ÁÝÏ³Í ëáóÇ³É³Ï³Ý áõ ïÝï»ë³Ï³Ý ËݹñÇÝ»ñÁ ÉáõÍ»É Ù»Ïë ÙÛáõëÇ Ñ³ßíÇÝ: ØÇÝã ³ñ¹Ç ï»ËÝáÉá·Ç³Ý»ñÇ áõ ½³Ý·í³Í³ÛÇÝ ï»Õ»Ï³ïíáõÃÛ³Ý ÙdzóÛ³É Ñ½áñáõÃÛáõÝÝ»ñÁ Ç ëå³ë Ϲñí»Ý ÷³ñ³ï»Éáõ é³ë³ÛÇ, ó»ÕÇ, ·áõÛÝÇ, ͳ·Ù³Ý, ³½·³ÛÇÝ å³ïϳݻÉáõÃÛ³Ý, ÏñáÝÇ, É»½íÇ, Ùß³ÏáõÛÃÇ, ˳íÇ, ¹³ë³Ï³ñ·Ç ¨ ³ÛÉ Ï³ñ·³íÇ׳ÏÝ»ñÇ Ñ»ï ϳåí³Í ëݳѳí³ïáõÃÛáõÝÝ»ñÝ áõ Ùï³í³ËáõÃÛáõÝÝ»ñÁ, ÝÙ³Ý µ³½Ù³Ï»ñåáõÃÛáõÝÝ áõ µ³½Ù³½³ÝáõÃÛáõÝÁ í»ñ³óÝ»Éáõ Ó·ïÙ³Ý ÷á˳ñ»Ý, Ù»½ ÙÇ Ñ³ÙÁݹѳÝáõñ Ñݳñ³íáñáõÃÛáõÝ ¿ ÁÝÓ»éíáõÙ û·ïí»Éáõ ³Û¹ µ³½Ù³½³ÝáõÃÛáõÝÇó áõ, ѳÝáõÝ ·³ÉÇù ë»ñáõݹݻñÇ, ϳéáõó»Éáõ ³í»ÉÇ ³éáÕç áõ å³Ûͳé ѳë³ñ³ÏáõÃÛáõÝ: ÞÝáñѳϳÉáõÃÛáõÝ: [ September 04, 2001: Message edited by: Garo ]