MJ

Then what example were you referring to? As far as the merits of the issue were concerned, I have not spoken about the quality of writers above, but the language. It would not occur to me to put Kaputikian on the same scale as a writer as Charents or Isahakian, and I don’t see which 20th century writers’ language was on a lower level than that of Sevag’s, except Toumanian, as I have separated above. Everyone knows that a mistake, or better to say idiotism, has been made in 20s changing the Armenian “ughghagrutiun.” Perhaps the purpose of it indeed was to further separate the Eastern Armenians from the Western. But I think some day it would be reversed. It requires massive effort, However. New textbooks have to be written, printed, teachers have to be trained, etc. How about those adults who have been trained otherwise... It requires a lot of money, which I am not sure under the current circumstances is available. Additionally, those who have changed the “ughghagrutiun” in 20’s are still alive, and on the top of the leadership of the corresponding academic establishment in Armenia. Now, if all of the above is indicative of superiority complex, than I guess I don’t understand some basic things in life. Having enough experience with both the population of Armenia and the Diaspora, btw very diverse Diaspora, I have witnessed that the alleged superiority complex is part of namely Diasporan upbringing – “the real Armenians are those who come from Diaspora (especially the ranks of ARF), the real Armenian language is the Western Armenian, etc.” Less educated the person more such insinuations he/she advances. Thank you for your wishes. [ September 10, 2001: Message edited by: MJ ]

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quote:Originally posted by khodja: How typical, if an Armenian doesn't agree with you will banish them. Anyone born and raised is an American. An Armenian raised outside of the Armenian community is definately an American. One great-grandparent of Assyrian heritage, of possible Jewish background, does not make one non-Armenian. You consider Rushdoony a famous Armenian-American. I consider him an infamous one. Nothing posted here was related to this premise. Just one thing: what a quintessential loser...

I think pointing to the 3529 testifies only at the inferiority complex of some.

What a sleaze bag...

quote:Originally posted by dragon: ''Say hello to your mum'' got it MJ. I like your humor...undertabled When I kill you, you can say "hello" to my 'mum,' assuming that you have lived a righteous enough life in full faith, and will have the chance to see her.

quote:Originally posted by Aghtchik: 1. Oh MJ, I am not at all experienced with marriage, but I always thought it's impossible to marry only the one you chose 2. I am an ODAR and my life is in danger for taking an Armenian away from his community? 3. Have you saddled your horse? Don't forget your keyboard. Dear Aghtchik, 1. It is possible – very possible, and is the only thing, which makes sense in marriage. 2. No your life is not endangered. In reality Armenians are very tolerant to mixed marriages, and have practiced it throughout their entire history. True, there is always a special category of Armenians, as in every other nation there is a special category of people, who would make loud declarations about it. Looking at the Internet Discussion Boards, one may think that this type of category is a majority. But you have to understand that the Internet Discussion Boards attract, with some exceptions, a special category of people, at least for now. 3. The horse is saddled, but my armor has lost its shine. Need some work to get rid of the rust. [ September 09, 2001: Message edited by: MJ ]

quote:Originally posted by dragon: If you couldn't get my humor, it is your problem, not mine Anana elam soyla And when you don't get others' humor is it their problem or yours? I have to admit that the knowledge of Turkish is long lost by me. So cannot reply to your last remark. P.S. Thorny, "Dabag humor" in this context means "Flat humor."

Dragon, was it you or Dragonessa talking a while ago about "dabag" humor?

Dear Aghtchik, marrying an entire community may be an unfulfilling experiences, and would be too hard for one's fragile health. Just marry the man you have chosen. Hold on... I am in the middle of saddling my horse.

Gayane or Garo, Please delete this one. It was a repetitive material. [ September 09, 2001: Message edited by: MJ ]

But I don't assume you are a combinator, right?

quote:Originally posted by dragon: KICH MU LOUSAPANUTIUN ******************** 1. Zouyk kraganutiunneren Arevmdahayerenn e vor hasadz e piureghayin partsunki, kan arevelahayerenu, vor dagavin kavarayin gu hodi. Terevus Deryan, Charents, Pagunts ou Sevag grnan purgvil miayn. 2. Khorhurtayin jamanagnerun mshagvogh kraganutiunu kiughatsiyagan - deghagan kuynin ou rusereni aztetsutian dag er, isg nergayinu ter haydni al che vor our gerta. Amen pan kharn e hima` vojayin te lezvagan zarkatsman imasdov. 3. Arevelahayerenu aztvadz ruserenen` arhesdakidagan yezrern ou kaghakagan, dndesagan, pujushgakidagan hasgatsutiunneru gam oughigh ruserenov gu kordzadze, gam al ador hayatsvadz darperagu (lavakuyn barakayin), minchter mius tevu` arenmdahayerenu gu time ankleren-franceren darperagin, gam al yurakanchiur mamoul-radio-tv nor parer gu shine ou zayn gu hramtsune hanroutian. 4. Terevus badaskhan dak ou usek` Hayasdanu anshoushd, ir kidnagannerov ou agatemigosnerov. Deghin e, guntunim, Payts... ays poloren aratch nakh oughigh krelou (oughghakragan) hartsu ga, vor yergu teverun hamar al gu mna chloudzvadz. Ays al ourish aritov. 1. Deryan, Charents, Pagunts ou Sevag, + Isahakian, Kaputikian, Sahian, … - pretty much any 20th century writer/poet, except Tumanian, whose language indeed has been provincial, but deliberately so – he could write perfect “kaghakaiin” language – see the first “Qaryak,” for example at http://armenians.com/poems/Qaryakner/ . 2. I think it is a baseless statement. 3. This is true, though there have been attempts to substitute the borrowed professional terms by Armenian made-up equivalents, but these attempts have failed due to the phoniness of the suggested Armenian terms. 4. The Institute of Language of the Academy of Sciences of Armenia. The argument of reverting the artificial “Soviet Armenian ughghagrutiun” has not found a lot of support so far. There are serious logistic problems associated with it. However, I think it is a possibility after the stabilization of Republic’s life.

quote:Originally posted by edward demian: MJ I have not given up on Eastern Armenia hlping the Western Armenians regain their rights. Accurately speaking, legally and historically, the right of the Western Armenians are their rights on their family property. Which, logistically and realistically speaking would be unenforceable except in few cases.

quote:Originally posted by edward demian: MJ My grand father was a Demiraiakoghlu; later changed the oghlu to ian. My grandmother was a Giritlian. Are we related? Not on the basis of the last names.

quote:Originally posted by gamavor: Yea, Dissolution of Turkey is also possible. Soviet Union crashed, why should not the same happen to Turkey. Even if we assume that it can happen, our odds of obtaining Armenian lands, rather than having them incorporated in a potential Kurdish state are 1 to 10,000. It has to be also noticed that the entire western world was interested in USSR dissolution. None of them are interested in Turkey's dissolution. Additionally, Turkey's dissolution would be disaster for Armenia.

Dear Edward, There has never been such thing as Western Armenia. Additionally, Turkey has not taken away form us “Western Armenian lands.’ In my view, the biggest crime of the traditional Armenian organizations is the cheating, illusioning and misinforming or people. I have spoken about it at /cgi-bin/forum/ultim...c&f=18&t=000049 . In the last 1000 years or so, there has been one real Armenia - that is this Republic and its two predecessors. If it would not be for the constant immigration out of of Armenia, Diaspora would be totally gone in one century. After all, the existence of Diaspora means that there is something wrong with our homeland – if everything was fine, we should’ve not had Diaspora. Therefore, the Diaspora itself is not a value to be worry about, unless it is for Armenia, in my book of values. Most of all I liked your UNSALA.

See... Tell me know that this Western-Eastern Armenian BS makes sense...

Exactly. And, yet, Nzhdeh has been the founder of Armenian "Tseghakron" movement.

Very commendable of you, Edward. My maternal side also descends from Cilicia. However, I don’t connect with it in anyway. It is too illusionary and unreal for me. Additionally, my maternal grandma was Catholic, too. She, along with her sister, has been saved by Catholic missionaries during the Genocide. Later her sister became Catholic nun (she hated me, btw ). The son of my maternal grandfather’s brother is a prominent Jesuit priest, well known in one of the largest Armenian Diasporan communities. So, as you see, we all share some features. Only we haven’t clarified our aspirations. P.S. My maternal grandfather's Cilician family has been masons. I am told that they have left their trademark in and around Marash constructions. So, we may even be relatives with you. [ September 09, 2001: Message edited by: MJ ]

quote:Originally posted by edward demian: 1. For me giving up on Western Armenian is another nail in the coffin of the Western Armenian Aspirations. 2. I thought the Jews revived Hebrew which was like Crapar. 3. I don't know what is being taught in California Armenian schools. 1. What does it mean? And by claiming Western Armenian aspirations and not Armenian aspirations, aren't you the one who divides us? 2. I don't think so. 3. Some Californian Armenian schools teach Western Armenian others Eastern.

Dear Edward, You didn’t heart my feelings. I would’ve replied the same way if you had made such remarks about Western Armenian. You were just wrong. I am intrigued to learn about your relationship to the Mkhitarians. But I have to note that Armenian language is such a perfect, yet multilayer structure that its adequate assessment requires much more prolonged studies, I think. There is a word in Eastern and Western Armenian for donkey – it is “avanag,” and that is what’s used in the literary language. You would hardly hear the word “Esheg” in Eastern Armenia, except when it is being pronounced with the purpose of insulting somebody. “Anasoon” is not the equivalent of “esheg,” but has more general meaning by referring to sort of “animal,” sort of "cattle." It is true that in Eastern Armenian street language there are many Russian expressions. However, it is neither a family language, nor a language that people would use in writing. Additionally, no Eastern Armenian respecting our language would use Russian or any other foreign words in his/her speech. Don’t judge by what you hear on the streets of Hollywood. Eastern Armenian is a perfect Armenian structure. The word “tren” is not used by Eastern Armenians, but rather by Western. There is a beautiful word for it in Eastern Armenian – “gnatsk.” Same about “Telephone.” Its Eastern Armenian substitute is “herakhos.” You are right that “t,” “d,” “k,” “g,” are frequently interchanged in Eastern and Western Armenian. Big deal … And who is to tell which one is right? Which Armenians are the real ones? Is there such a thing? It is true that the two dialects somewhat separate us. But there are things which separate us more - first of all our bond with our homeland. But within each dialect there are so many things that separate the Western Armenians from Western Armenians or the Eastern from the Eastern that the dialect is an innocent thing. Look at Etchmiadzin and Anthilias, for example. It is right that the Western Armenian is closer to Grabar than the Eastern. So what? Even the Western Armenian of the 15th century is different from the Western Armenian of the 20th century. The language always evolves. One can argue that Eastern Armenian is a structurally more developed stage of the Armenian language than the Western. Each language is gone through much evolution in history. Modern Greeks don’t understand ancient Greek, nor the Modern Jews understand ancient Hebrew. It is a hell for a modern English speaker to understand even Shakespearian English. What’s the big deal between the Eastern and Western Armenian versions? Anybody who understands well one of them, with a little effort would also understand the other, though some would pretend that they don't - an attitude problem. The preservation of whichever version of Armenian is an issue of realism. There is huge literary heritage in Eastern Armenian – of several magnitudes higher than in Western Armenian. All Armenian Scientific, professional and educational literature is written in Eastern Armenian. It is impossible for Armenia and not expedient to switch to Western Armenian. On the other hand, the number of the users of Western Armenian is constantly shrinking, and it is natural that it has no future as a version other than a family language for some segments of our nation. Even that for not more than another century. This is not an issue of populism, but of realism. I don’t think that Eastern Armenian is in any way being taken to the outer space. Quite the opposite. It is where it is supposed to be. As to not taking it further and further from you, why not to put some effort to accept it. After all, the only realistic chance of the standardization of the Armenian language is in accepting the Eastern Armenian as the standard version. Just accept it, and unite with the majority of the Armenian speaking nation. Isn’t this a reasonable expectation? [ September 09, 2001: Message edited by: MJ ]

Dear Timucin, I think you are taking things very inadequately and way out of their proportions. First, I have never understood you since I have never known you beyond one or two postings of yours, which I have declared that were very ambiguous due to the absence of clarity. I am sorry to say that this remains my main (and only) problem with you - you are not articulating yourself clearly, and I think it is because you are not thinking clearly - this is not a personal remark, but general - the one who thinks clearly, articulates clearly. I have greeted you cordially in this forum, have been eager to see you here, I have been polite to you, I have not insulted you ever, nor I have fooled you - I am sorry that you have such a perception. I think you are a good man, but you have serious problem with the clarity of your articulation. You contradict yourself very frequently - all this because of the way you summon and convey your thoughts. In general, I would like to ask you not to lose the sight of this board being just a discussion board, and not a poker table - the very premise of fooling somebody here is quite ridiculous. The primary question is what for? And I think you are intelligent enough not to be fooled, anyway. If you have some concrete allegations about how have a fooled you, I promise to give you fool explanation and satisfaction. Best wishes, Martin P.S. BTW, where have I claimed that you were a psychiatry major? [ September 09, 2001: Message edited by: MJ ]

Why I Am Reformed By Rev. R. J. Rushdoony Over the years, I have often been asked what made me a Calvinist, and now the Chalcedon staff has asked that I write an answer to this question. In part, I answered that question in my appendix to By What Standard? many years ago. Basically, the answer is this: I am a Calvinist because God made me so in his mercy and predestinating power. Thus in a sense, I was born a Calvinist. Again, I was baptized a covenant child. My Armenian heritage reinforced this fact. From my earliest years, my memories were of the arrival of friends and relatives from the old county. Numerous meetings with them followed in the three-county area as others met with them to ask about their own loved ones. Some would be told that their loved ones were seen floating dead in a stream, or seized by Turkish and Kurdish forces. This and more told me that this world is a battle between two forces. We were ordained to victory, our Faith assured us, but at a price. The Bible in this context was a military book, our King's orders to us, his people. As soon as I could read, I read the Bible over and over again. It did not occur to me to doubt anything it said. I did not understand all that I read, but I understood enough to know that the King's word was to be believed and obeyed. Years later, as a graduate student, I was asked by another if I really took the Westminster Standards literally, so I reread them. It made me more aware of what a Reformed believer is, and more clear in my grasp of the line of division. At the time, of course, much that passed for the Reformed Faith or Calvinism was vague and compromising. Much of it was simply a more "dignified" fundamentalism. This is where Dr. Cornelius Van Til was so important. He clarified, restored, and developed the Reformed Faith. He settled and shaped my own faith and direction. I cannot overstate his influence, nor the strength he gave me in my development and direction. It was the Lord who made me Reformed in his sovereign grace and mercy, in his predestinating power and grace. In youth, his directing power made clear to me that a believer is a doer, and so I gained a vocation. Being a Reformed believer is very easy: You go with the flow of history, you go with God as against man. Being an unbeliever is what is hard, painfully hard. I have known well enough unbelievers to know how true this is. Life then has no meaning, and we are empty of any truth or purpose. There is then no victory in history, and life is barren of purpose. The Reformed Faith tells me that there are no meaningless facts, no brute factuality, to use Van Til's term, in God's creation. I live in a cosmos of universal and blessed meaning. True, it is at present a battlefield between two alien powers, but the victory of our Lord is assured. My place in that battle and that victory are all of grace--a privilege. It has brought me my share of problems, but my life has been a rich one compared to the many relatives and ancestors who died for the Faith. Chalcedon was founded to further our victory in Christ. It amazes me that prominent churchmen actually see my faith in that fullness of victory as wrong. I pity their lack of faith, and I pray they will change. http://www.chalcedon.edu/report/99feb/rush_why.html

quote:Originally posted by gamavor: All this issue about lipanahay, bolsahay, barskahay, ekiptosahay is another Armenian idiotic "paradigm.” So,... which one of them is the Real Armenian?