MJ

Dear Domino, It really is not worth my time to waste myself on such a shallow nonsense. Sorry. I'll stop here.

Preface A generally accepted definition of the extent of Europe, whilst excluding much of historic Armenia, does include the present-day Republic of Armenia, the boundary between Asia and Europe being regarded as running along the Caucasus. Neither Armenia nor the Armenians however are routinely associated, by most people, with Europe and Europeans. European history has traditionally been narrowly conceived, concentrating particularly on western Europe, and an interest, in this context, in Armenia, is often expected to be explicable in terms of some personal connection, in a way which would not be expected of an interest in, say, France, Germany or Russia. I have no such connection, but as our world becomes more a global village and comperative history and world history more illuminating, conviction that Armenian history is as relevant to the history of the lands and peoples which have shared the Greco-Roman civilization and of Judeo-Christian religion as that of the Anglo-Saxons, though the latter is, for a West European, far easier of access, and vice versa. The book is intended for non-Armenian readers interested in the ancient medieval histories of Europe, to ‘demystify’ the Armenians, and to illuminate their place in a European context. It is not to re-establish the emphasis on European influence and aspects which some modern scholars regard as having overdone in the past, to the neglect of Iranian and Syrian. Nevertheless, scholarly perception and accounts of Europe have also changed over time, so that those more familiar with the Armenians may also find a consideration of the Armenians as a people of Europe illuminating. I should like to thank the editors for their invitation to contribute this series, their patience and good advice; Professor J.A. Cannon, Professor R.I. Moore and Dr. T.A. Sinclair for their comments on the text in draft; Mrs. M. Brack, Miss J. Cummin, Mrs. E. Cunningham, Miss J. Dalton, Mrs. V. Duglass, Miss S. Dunkin, Mrs. F. Griffits, Mrs. A. Macdonald, Mr. R. Robson and Mrs. I. Willis for secretarial assistance; the Audio-Visual Centre of the University of Newcastle upon Tyne for reproducing some of the plates; the Inter-Library Loan Department of the Robinson Library, University of Newcastle upon Tyne; and Mrs. A. Rooke, Senior Cartogrpaher in the Department of Geography in the University of Newcastle upon Tyne who drew up the maps here from my hand-drawn visions. [Hmm… Not a single Armenian name… - MJ] Anne Elizabeth Redgate The Armenians (1998) Blackwell Publishers The Peoples of Europe Series General Editors James Campbell and Barry Cunliffe

Dear Domino, It is so ironic that it would take from you almost a page to contemplate what you were trying to say there. Such a waste of ink, don't you think so? Here is what I have said precisely: "In fact, his thinking is much more rational than yours and he is much more informed and well read on fundamental issues than you Unfortunately his conduct is irrational and inappropriate. But, then, hey, many people feel the same about my conduct." What were you saying, Domino? Can you articulate it in one sentence, otherwise I started reading your reply, and after reading the first sentence, I couldn't continue. Just be to the point, OK?

Dear Domino, To make it easier for you, there is only one place that I am always headed in my discussions or materials – Armenia. That is the final destination of everything I say or do here. So just accept it and you would feel fine. I have pretty much read everything Gamavor has written. If one can go beyond his sarcasm and emotional discharge, and sometimes beyond his hateful comments, one can find a lot of rational in what he is saying. However, I don’t think that his conduct is adequate, and I think he is the one who has brought down the Code of Conduct of this forum (along with Naira) – and it is unfortunate as much as I like very much both of them as human beings. Maybe one has to also see the fault of the Royal Ministers Ping, peng and Pong in this? But I know why Gamavor is doing it. He is trying to balance the crap that is being posted here frequently, by pushing it to far to the right. It doesn’t do goodneither to this forum nor to his image but I understand his motives. And about rationality, are you suggesting that I am even lesser then an irrational person ? I don’t know where did you get this one from. Because you say he is more rational, then later you claim him being irrational, that makes me a lesser then a irrational person I believe. What can I say about this, is just a thank you. This quote of yours is a perfect example of how you can misunderstand some very simple things. I think I have spoken about the rationality of the thinking of Gamavor and the irrationality of his conduct. Where is the contradiction in what I have said?

Thoth, You may disagree all you want. I know Gamavor personally. I have set with him not once, have spoken to him and have looked him in the eyes. If he is reactionary, then you and me are Eskimo. In fact, I would argue that he may be as liberal minded as you are. You are wrong if you think I have missed your point about the suffering of the common Chechen people. I empathize them all you want. I also empathize the sufferings of Azeris, Turks, Palestinians, Jews, Bangladeshi - you name it. But my utmost concern is for my Nation. My concern is not an idle tabloid concern for the sake of satisfaction of some ideological thirst. It doesn’t do much if I come to Internet and discharge by ventilating on how much “I am concerned about my neighbor,” when I have responsibility for my family. And this is not about Gamavor, you or me. This is about the wolves my nation is surrounded by. My neighborhood obligates me to be alert and mistrusting – there is not a single shred of argument that you can bring which would make me not feel that way – we have seen more than our share. And if you come to my house and advocate me to put my arms down, then I will just shut you as a provocateur and defeatist. Not because I am bloodthirsty. Quite the opposite – I hate blood. But I would not give anyone the opportunity to put me asleep and then to butcher my children. All this obviously is allegory. About the Chechens, again. For more than a decade Chechen bandits (and this are not handful but brigades and they are not transplanted from Mars but they come from the Culture of the common folk in Caucasian mountains) have terrorized Russia, they are on the frontiers of organized crime, have turned that capital of culture and science into medieval nightmare, they kill lawlessly on the streets, they rub, they impose “taxes” on all entrepreneurs. What makes them different from the rest of criminals is their viciousness – they take pleasure in killing. Neither their lives nor their victim’s lives have any value to them. They are brave on the streets of cities against the civilians but behave like chickens on the battlefields. They don’t fight like man but take pleasure in slitting someone’s throat. And when they are squeezed, they retreat to their mountains and play on the public sympathy and empathy pretending to fight for independence so that to garner international support. You say you are supporting their plight? Plight for what? What independence? Do you think they are interested in independence? Then you are as naïve as it gets. They no perfectly well that Chechnya has zero chance to exist based on the merits of economics. No economy is possible there if it is not for Russia. And they would not be able to plunder Russia if Chechnya is independent. All this ventilation about their independence is just wool in the eyes of the clueless like you. Do you really understand what is going on in Chechnya? Do you understand that there is one state that brings all that suffering on their common people – that is Turkey. Do you understand that has been going on for very long time. Cannot you see that Turkey c doesn’t give a damn about the Chechens and all it cares about is the creation of instability in the region so that the discussions of Russian pipeline cannot be discussed with any degree of seriousness. In fact, this is the only instance where Gamavor is fundamentally wrong. Oil companies have nothing to do with this. No investor of oil industry would put its money in a region such this. No drop of oil will flaw in this region unless there is a just and fair solution to the regional problems and unless regional security guaranties are established. This is the mistake of the Turkish Government – the game they play in Chechnya sets a precedent – they do it in Chechnya, Russians will do it in Georgia, and others will do it in Azerbaijan. For more than a decade the US government and the government of Turkey have lobbied Oil companies so that they invest in the Turkish pipeline. No Oil company has come forward. Guess what, the Oil industry is the most conservative industry that you can think of. No one in his right mind would put money in such a losing endeavor. So give me a break. Back to the subject of Homeland. Armenia is my spiritual Homeland. It is in my dreams. But I have pledged loyalty to the US without any hesitation and am equally proud of it. It doesn’t stop me from claiming ownership of Armenia, and I don’t need a Souvenir Passport, as eloquently put once by Boghos, to do so. About the trap. If you think I have nothing more rewarding to do but am wasting my time here by building trap for Domino, or whomever, I think you are losing your cool. I am trying to articulate some very basic things. I don’t think I am speaking complex language nor I am using complex logic. Everything I say is a simple as it gets. If someone doesn’t get it, it is for one reason only – it is not in his/her heart. About “helping Armenia” and “sending money.” You know what, I personally couldn’t care less about it. Even 12 years ago Armenians in Armenia had the resentment towards the Diaspora money due to their understanding that it is not going to help Armenia to stand on its feet and Armenia has to become not only self-sufficient but competitive. So give me a break again. Besides, I send money to place that you would not even imagine. I used to live in Moscow when the Mexico City earthquake happened. And I sent money there. I have sent money to Bangladesh or to variety of Police Fraternities or Orphans around the US. Don’t give me that garbage, please. What I am talking is not about helping Armenia. I am talking about feeling ownership over her. I don’t know how many times and how much simpler can I put it. About my dissatisfactions. Am I satisfied in my life? I have a pretty good life, beautiful family, outstanding career, incredible social and other opportunities. I will never be satisfied perhaps because my path is the infinity of self-perfection – intellectually and otherwise. It is a very dissatisfying journey no matter what. However, you see none of it. What you see is a deep dissatisfaction with this forum and the crap frequently contemplated here. If it was about someone’s personal thinking and respecting it, I would have no problem with it. But as I have said in the past, this is the Armenia Online – you like it or not. And as I have said once, “once you are on the stage, you are expected to perform adequately. Otherwise, leave the stage.” That’s all. Let me know when you are ready for us to tap into your cellar. Have to run. No time to read what I have written. It came as I felt.

Domino, You are clueless not because you are stupid and cannot understand. I believe you are smart enough person. I have already in two occasions have made my point absolutely clear – you are a person without a feeling of Homeland. That’s why you don’t understand what I am saying, and that’s why you claim that what Gamavor is has to be only seen in the context of statistics and not rational thinking. In fact, his thinking is much more rational than yours and he is much more informed and well read on fundamental issues than you Unfortunately his conduct is irrational and inappropriate. But, then, hey, many people feel the same about my conduct. The problem has already been articulated by me in this thread. Armenia has always been taken over ideologically due to the weakness of the national consciousness and the identity conflicts inherent in our upbringing. You are a perfect example, along with Thoth – as much as I like both of you personally, of how one can surrender his Homeland. I think you may say that it is my duty to be clearer on the subject but I would say it is as clear as it gets in such issues. So that to understand it better, it has to be in your heart. Is it?

The Wall Street Journal Europe March 2, 2001 East Of The Oder The Gang That Couldn't Do Capitalism Straight By Paul Klebnikov 03/02/2001 The Wall Street Journal Europe (Copyright © 2001, Dow Jones & Company, Inc.) Big Biznis, Russian-style, functions according to some strange rules. If you have a market rival who threatens you, you can simply murder him. If you want to take over a big state- owned company, you bribe the relevant official to give it to you. Then, instead of investing in this company and growing it, you soak it of all the cash flow and park the money in your personal offshore account. Why did Russia go wrong? How did Russians get such a warped conception of capitalism? Westerners pondering this mystery may find some answers by looking at the people who taught Russian businessmen what it means to be a capitalist. One of their first and most important modern role models was Marc Rich. The fugitive American commodities trader -- most recently of Clinton pardon fame -- traded Soviet oil and aluminum for years. But he really hit his stride after 1989, when the Soviet Union began falling apart and corrupt Communist Party bosses and unscrupulous young traders from the Communist Youth League began staking their claims to Russia's most valuable assets. Russian officials, including former trade minister Oleg Davydov, have asserted to me that Mr. Rich's companies set a bad example of how to set up shell companies in obscure offshore tax havens, how to open Swiss bank accounts, how to buy Russian commodities at the domestic price (5% or 10% of the world market price) and resell them abroad at a huge profit. Mr. Rich's commodity business boomed: In the early 1990s, he sold billions of dollars of Russian oil, and thanks to his purchase of Russian aluminum, he came to control a third of the world spot market of this metal. The corruption of Russia's new business class stems from much more than one person's influence, of course. The deeper problem is that the Russians have long had a completely perverted understanding of capitalism and the West. Indeed, news of the Marc Rich pardon was received with little surprise in Russia. I suspect that the tycoons see this is as just a routine example of the corruption rampant in America. Over the past decade, whenever I asked Russian tycoons why their market was so penetrated by organized crime, they always argued that capitalism in the United States had been violent and lawless initially too. Many Russian businessmen related to some fantasy image of modern America, too. In 1993, having heard that a dozen bank presidents had been assassinated in the mob war raging in Moscow, I asked the head of Aeroflot Bank if he was nervous being a banker. "Why should I be?" he replied. "There is nothing unusual in this. Bank managers get killed in the West all the time." Such references can come from the most sophisticated people; even Anatoly Chubais, the architect of Russian privatization. "During the formation of capitalism in the United States, there was a phenomenal amount of killing, bloodshed and lawlessness," Mr. Chubais pontificated to me. The difference, obviously, is that in the U.S., gangsters and criminals operated on the fringes of society and usually ended up in jail. In the new Russia, they came to dominate the nation's business and politics. Why was the democratic government of Boris Yeltsin so deeply corrupt? In 1996, I posed the question to Boris Berezovsky, a car dealer who had acquired Russia's premier television, airline and oil companies and become the country's most influential businessman. He also offered a familiar excuse for the triumph of organized crime in Russia: "I, for one, know that a mass of people in the West are corrupted," he said. "There are incessant denunciations of high-ranking functionaries in the United States, in France . . . Mayors of major cities are being thrown in jail." Where did the Russian oligarchs get such twisted ideas? All of Russia's big businessmen were members of the communist establishment and received the best Marxist-Leninist education the Soviet Union had to offer. This upbringing left an indelible imprint on them. Mr. Berezovsky, for instance, loves to say that he and other oligarchs are engaged in the "primary accumulation of capital." Marx used the term to describe the most primitive stage of capitalism -- the way a medieval baron would loot and pillage his way to his first fortune. Often I tried to disabuse the biznismen of the notion America's early capitalists were simply crooks or gangsters who had made good. Their success was due to innovation, hard work and steady reinvestment in their businesses, I pointed out. They had earned their money honestly, had paid their taxes and had succeeded in a market that gave all participants an equal chance. I was met with disbelief, and smirks, by my Russian acquaintances. Surely I was smart enough to understand that any successful human endeavor was accompanied by intrigue and double-cross? At any rate, the new Russian kapitalisty are a completely different species from the pioneers of American capitalism. The Robber Barons of the 19th century presided over the biggest economic boom the world had ever seen. Rockefeller created the world's largest oil industry. Carnegie built the world's largest steel company. J.P. Morgan mobilized American capital to fuel the country's industrial boom and made Wall Street a more honest marketplace. They all created something out of nothing. Russia's tycoons, by contrast, are almost without exception mediocre businessmen. They have not created a single noteworthy business enterprise. The big state-owned companies they have taken over with their inside deals have almost all languished under their management. Not surprisingly, the Russian economy has been ravaged by the crony capitalism of the Yeltsin years (GDP contracted by 41% between 1990 and 1999). Russia has suffered the biggest catastrophe -- economically, socially and demographically -- since the Nazi invasion in 1941. The tragic irony of Bill Clinton's pardon of Marc Rich is that it confirms Russians' worst suspicions of how the president of the United States colludes with the schemes of big businessmen. You can skip your high-minded principles, they say, we know that America is just a slightly more polished version of, well, Boris Yeltsin's Russia. --- Mr. Klebnikov, a senior editor at Forbes, is the author of "Godfather of the Kremlin: Boris Berezovsky and the Looting of Russia," published by Harcourt. http://www.klebnikov.org/Opinion.php?id=5

I meant, "I had to say this."

quote:Originally posted by Domino:Thoth, I think what angered MJ, was when you said to take the opportunity to put the land claims to rest... it was more like, you can not say this, because the large majority of the diasporan Armenians have desires, here the "possibility" or how to do it, was even not refered. Dear Domino, I think you have no clue what you are talking about here. The reason is the same - you also are a person (no matter how good) with no Homeland. That's why these things don't come across to you (and to several others in this forum). I would also add that in the other thread, which is now closed, you still had no clue what you were talking about. I strongly disapprove Gamavors' style of contemplation as well as the emotions which come with it, but on the basis of merits he was absolutely right and you were not only clueless but also out of line. I felt that I had to day this.

Thoth, The Government of the Republic of Armenia is one of the most professionals ones in the region on the stage of Foreign Policy. While I have no dispute with you on the subject of “revenge” or “justice” I am sort of incapable to understand the context of your contemplation on that subject – at least to the extend that my previous materials are concerned. Your argument about “coming back” to our lands is an absurd and is characteristic for a person with no feeling of homeland. Sorry if this sounds harsh. I certainly don’t mean to be personal. I don’t want to go to anyone else’s country to claim “my lands.” I proudly identify myself with two countries – Armenia and USA. Don’t need a third one. And the name of “my land” is Armenia. I am sorry to see it that you, Winston, don’t get it. That is my primary problem with the Diaspora Armenians, I mean the masses – certainly there are a lot of individuals who would share my feelings and would find your understanding of things very offensive. This is not about private property. Perhaps, one may find it more rewarding to have private property in Bahamas or in Bali. This is about the Homeland, which is a concept foreign to most of Diasporan Armenians. Sorry, again, if it comes harsh.

quote:Originally posted by aycemnik:To MJ Dear MJ, could you please explain what you mean by "We have always been taken ideologically- we have been very week on that ground...". Dear Aycemnik (I assume it should be pronounced like Aytsemnik?), I meant to say "We have always been taken over ideologically," trying to indicate that that there aren't [at least many] instances of Armenia being taken over as a result of us losing the war. Armenia has always been taken over peacefully in the result of denigration of the national consciousness and alertness. quote:Also, you said you can give exemples of Armenian fighters being hired by Europeans, now, i am not questioning your information, but would like to know some names for my own sake, please It is OK to question my information but it is not necessarily wise. Here is an example: "Heresy, like Christianity itself, tended to move from east to west. But it was not until the eighth century that dualism first gained a foothold on the European side of the Bosphorus. The source of infection was Armenia, where a strong dualist community known as the Paulicians had existed since the fifth century. The Armenians were an aggressive, troublesome race, whose subdomination to Buzantium was at times little more than nominal. In the eighth century colonies of them were transplanted by the emperor Constantin V to Trace where, it was hoped, their warlike instincts would be part put to good use in defending the Balkan frontier. Others followed in about 975 and settled in the region of Phillippopolis. These Armenian colonists brought with them not only their military skills but also their heretical beliefs. By the end of the ninth century Paulician missionaries had already penetrated the neighboring kingdom of Bulgaria. (1999) The Albigensian Crusade Jonathan Sumpton pp. 34-35 " The only additional comment I have is that it has been an established misinterpretation or, better to say, misinformation, to claim that Paulicians have been dualists. It is their enemies - the Catholics and Orthodox theologists’ thesis, which has allowed them to fight the Paulicians more easily in front of the Emperors and their officials.

Thoth, You have misunderstood me. I was talking about owning my desires not about material property. Kocharian's statement was legally correct statement.

Thoth, My desires belong to me by virtue of being my private property. Whether there is a way to satisfy them or not, I have no desire to discuss them over the Internet. I am also well aware of Kocharyan's statement. Thanks for the correction, Sen_Vahan.

Speak Out- Don’t Speak Out, Speak Out- Don’t Speak Out, Speak Out- Don’t Speak Out, … Speak Out! OK! Let’s try to put few things in perspective, so that to put some of the observed ignorance to rest. The origin of the Chechen conflict has nothing to do with their Independence struggle. This has been a pure conflict within the structures of Russian organized crime and the Generalitet. All it started from the pullout of the Soviet Army from Eastern Europe, in particular Eastern Germany. It was a period of great chaos in the collapsing Soviet Union. Not surprisingly, the high ranking Russian Generals, who knew that their time had come to end, and they were going not only to lose their comfortable lifestyle in Eastern Europe, but were going to be asked to exercise early retirement, had to find a way to exercise more comfortable retirement. Additionally, there was not even adequate real estate available in Russia to host the returning from the Eastern Europe personnel. So what happened. The Generals started to sell the armory of the Soviet Army on the process of the pullout. Obviously, big money was made. I don’t speak here about the sale of Kalashnikovs but tanks, helicopters, heavy artillery, etc. It is a public knowledge that the most significant part of this armory was bought by Turkey – surprise- surprise and a mystery. Another portion was bought by Croatia, Yugoslavia, etc. The late General Djukaev (please correct me if I am misquoting his name – I am away from home and don’t have the materials available in the literature handy), was one of them, who subsequently became the first “President of Chechnya.” Together with his other pals of the Russian Generalitet he started an “accounting war” titled “for the Independence of Chechnya.” For all practical purposes, according to the investigators (I can refer to the well publicized book by Klebnikov – if needed I will post later the title of the book). What was done in the first period of the war? The brigades of Russian Organized crime of Chechens ethnicity, professional mercenaries, led by Djukaev [i am sure I am misquoting his name] rebelled, and his Russian pals sent a brigade of young Russian conscript of age 18 who had never smelled gun powder before, half-fed and half-armed, to fight the “bandits” out. No surprise that they were slaughtered. The desired escalation was put in motion. The public outrage in Moscow also started to build up. So, the next wave of unprofessional solders was thrown into the “battlefield,” while “sparing” the professional army. Meanwhile, the pals-Generals of our infamous Chechen President were supplying him with the necessary armory and ammunition – the very one the Russian conscripts were supposed to use against them. So the Russians got slaughtered even further. In the process, the accounting gap of the Eastern flank of Soviet Army was starting to find “explanation.” The missing Armory was missing in the “Chechen War.” Additionally, so that not to make irrelevant and ignorant statements in this forum about the “Holly Independence War for Chechnya” out of somewhere [don’t want to use inappropriate language ], one has to be minimally aware of the influence, handwriting, the legacy, the ethnic character and the spheres of interest of the Russian Organized Crime, of which Armenians are part, too, btw. Obviously, all this eventually triggered significant outrage in Russia, and eventually the professional Army was forced to step up to the plate. Might have it committed atrocities? I have no doubts. Has it triggered outrage from the Chechen common people? No doubt. Was it frequently tricked to do so by the Chechens themselves? No doubt. But all these fairy tales about Chechen independence… Give me a break. Are Chechens entitled to independence? Absolutely yes. Would I, for example, be happy if it happens? I would be very concerned, absolutely concerned. Why, one may ask, if from the very onset Armenians and Chechens have never crossed their paths and have noting to share or divide? Well, obviously, this is not their perception. You may ask what did Chechens have to do in the Karabagh battles? Why did Chechens, many of them the leaders of current “Independence War,” come to fight against Armenians? Not that it mattered – they eventually ran away like beheaded chickens, after all. They are better at terrorist acts in urban areas, apparently. The stupidity of Russians was constituted in not asking Armenians to solve the Chechen problem – this is a rhetoric statement, obviously. To cut the chase, the Chechen tactics was a bastardization of the Armenian struggle for Independence of Karabagh and Armenia. We can draw some parallels between what was going on in Armenia and Azerbaijan. In 1998, Armenians started a parliamentary movement for the unification of Karabagh with Armenia. Shortly after, Armenians in Armenia and Karabagh realized the legislative stupidity of that initiative, and rephrased it as Indpendence of Karabagh. Meanwhile, the sentiment of Independence of Armenia was gaining momentum, too. All of this was a parliamentary and Constitutional movement –admittedly an unparalleled one in the history of Western Civilization, evolving almost as if a textbook example. The response was the massacre and deportation of Armenians in Azerbaijan and the depopulation of Karabagh with the help of Russian special forces. Meanwhile, Gorbachev signed the Treaty on disarmament, and according to the quote for the Southern flank, the Soviet army in Caucasus had to be significantly reduced, i.e. moved to Siberia. The moronic leadership of Armenia of the time, instead of buying the ammunition and armory through bribing the Generals or whatever other means, was trying to persuade the Russians not to leave… Meanwhile the same was taking place in Azerbaijan and Georgia – Russian Army was pulling out. This is early 1990, if I remember correctly. Fortunately enough, there were politically healthy and aware people in Armenia concerned about the future of Armenia and Karabagh. The atmosphere was very tense. You could smell invasion of Armenia any time. There was no alternative but to be ready. Some of the best suns of Armenia at the time, who had never held in their hands anything other than pen to write poetry or professional articles, or paint-brush, self-organized and started to storm in a very organized and orderly manner the remaining Soviet military bases, as well as police stations. Some minimal, frequently dysfunctional armory was acquired without hurting a single Russian solder or policeman. There was not a drop of blood shed. This operation allowed Armenians to emerge victorious in few days when the Azeris started to storm Eraskhavan – on the border of Armenia, Nakhichevan and Turkey. The response from the Armenian side was so overwhelming and so surprising, against all military rules by unprofessional people, that the Azeri defense lines collapsed within few hours, and Armenians where about to cut Nakhichevan from Turkey. This is when the Soviet Special forces injected themselves from the Azeri side and threw Armenians back, who were about to run out of ammunition. Meanwhile, the Soviet Army detachments were dislocated on the Armenian side of the border and communicating with the ones on the other side, coordinating the operation. They could eliminate Armenians in no time. But they didn’t need it. They needed the escalation of the conflict – everything was going according to their plan. I don’t have time now to go into the details, nor I feel this is the place to do it. Have to run to see some people in an hour. Anyway, Armenians emerged victorious. It was so much needed. This victory was the first one after Sardarabad, which injected the necessary psychological confidence to the Armenian nation so that it reclaims that its own destiny should be in its own hands. There were only few people who understood what happened on that day – early snowy January of 1990 – Armenia became Independent. Some people declared it by acknowledging it. Most of others said these “declarations were crazy.” However, that was the rigid reality and the rest was inertia. Eventually, both sides, Armenians and Azeris acquired weaponry from the Russians. Even though, by some semi-official estimates. The ratio of the acquired weaponry was 1:6 against Armenians, we know the story, now. This was a celebration of the true Armenian spirit and the Armenian aptitude towards military skills. Armenians have always been recognized as the most skilful and spirited fighters. They have frequently been hired by the Europeans to defend their Southern Flanks. If challenged, I will bring references. One may ask then, how come than Armenians have always been on the losing side of history. My answer is simple. We have always been taken ideologically – we have been very week on that ground – perhaps it is a deeply rooted internal identity conflict – we have been cut away from our roots very early in our history. After all, who needs external enemies, if one has an internal enemy in view of the Church. But this is a different topic. To Thooth. Dear Winston, you are good guy, and I would feel privileged to be your friend, if only your Istanbulian aristocratic genealogy may accommodate such a parochial Eastern Armenian like me (the last one is just an attempt to pull your legs). You may be a good cousin, but please don’t try to run my household. As a parochial eastern Armenian, however, I have all the claims in my heart towards Turkey, and there is nothing that I say or you say, that can change it. And to anyone who wants to make a deal with me on that subject, my answer can be phrased in a way that would be inappropriate for this forum. Sorry, don’t have time to edit this material.

SAT MAT, October 26, 2002 1:30 - 4:30 Il Pirata Casting Imogene: Renée Fleming Gualtiero: Marcello Giordani Ernesto: Dwayne Croft Goffredo: Tigran Martirosyan Conducted by: Bruno Campanella For a brief synopsis, production credits and information about other performances of this Metropolitan Opera production, please see the Production Overview http://www.metopera.org/cgi-bin/perf.pl?se...03&opera=PRTA02 In the last couple of years of my residence in Armenia, Tigran Martirosyan was a rising. It is very pleasing to discover his consistent growth over the last decade. Here is a brief bio of his: Tigran MARTIROSYAN Tigran Martirosyan was born in Erevan on June 2, 1970. In 1995 he graduated from the Gnesiny Russian Musical Academy of Moscow (A. Eizen's class). In 1993 he became a soloist of the Moscow municipal theatre New Opera. In 1996 he was admitted to the opera company of the Bolshoi Theatre of Russia. • Winner of the First Prize of the All-Russia Competition of Russian Music (1992) • Winner of a diploma and of a special prize of the 10th Tchaikovsky International Competition (1994) • Winner of the second prize of the Competition of the Queen of Norway Sonya (Oslo, 1995) • Winner of the Khristov International Young Singers Competition (Sofia, 1996) His repertory includes: King Rene (Tchaikovsky's "Iolanta"), Ramphis (Verdi's "Aida"), Pimen (Musorgsky's "Boris Godunov"), King of Clubs (Prokofiev's "Love for Three Oranges"), Galitsky (Borodin's "Prince Igor"), Raymondo (Donicetti's Lucia di Lammermur"). One can also see his photo at http://www.opera.ru/english/truppa_opera_5_3.phtml P.S. In the passage above, I meant to say "Tigran Martirosyan was a rising star." [ October 27, 2002, 09:43 AM: Message edited by: MJ ]

Laura Schlessinger is a US radio personality who dispenses advice to people who call in to her radio show. Recently, she said that as an Orthodox Jew, homosexuality is an abomination according to Leviticus 18:22 and cannot be condoned in any circumstance. The following is an open letter to Dr. Laura penned by a US resident. Dear Dr. Laura: Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal from your show, and I try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate. I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the specific laws and how to follow them: a) When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odour for the Lord (Lev. 1:9). The problem is my neighbours. They claim the odour is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them? I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her? c) I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness (Lev. 15:19-4). The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offence. d) Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighbouring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians? e) I have a neighbour who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself? f) A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination (Lev. 11:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this? g) Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here? h) Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev.19:27. How should they die? i) I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves? j) My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev. 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? (Lev.24:10- 16) Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14) I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you canhelp. Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging. Your devoted disciple and adoring fan.

I think I might have figured it out: “Orinak” originates from the word “Orenk” – meaning rule. The suffix “k” has had a function of making plural out of the given noun in Grabar. Therefore, the root of the word is “oren” or “orin.” The existence of the last root should also be expected, given the existence of the word “orinakan,” for example. Also, the suffix “ak” has a function of (along with “ik”) diminishing the given noun in Armenian. Thus - “orinak.” It is used in such diminished form since it is meant to indicate something which is not the “rule” itself, but is rather available to support the “rule.” Thus, I think we can put in rest the hypothesis of the origin of the word “orinak” being in Turkish language, since it would be unexplainable how could it be transplanted into Grabar from Turkish.

I agree with you. And, yes, I am referring to breaking the pointless illusions regarding Diaspora and Armenia, and letting Armenia, or better to say, advising Armenia to be more rigorous in selecting its future coarse with a slogan “You are either in or out.”

Yes, indeed. I guess I was having a blackout. Of coarse it is used as an equivalent of "for example." Now, you make me even more doubtful in Ali's theory.

quote:Originally posted by aurguplu:mj, i would be happy if you could provide me with info what "zororinag" means and whether it can be analysed back to an armenian root. the explanation i had provided above may of course be wrong (i know no armenian to check) and both views were propounded during the republic but the issue had got tangled in left-wing - right wing politics concerning the language reform, so we probably do not have reliable info on it over here. the source advocating an armenian origin for "örnek" said that the armenian form "orenag" from which it had derived had in turn derived from the old persian "avdenag". since i am not a specialist of either armenian or old persian, i cannot comment on it. on the other hand "ör-enek" sounds like a perfectly turkish word and just the word you would coin to describe the motifs on textiles, which is what it apparently originally meant. cheers, Ali, I don't know much of Grabar. However, I have come across that word in old Armenian scriptures, and if I am mistaken, it is jus a derivative of the word "orinag" or the other way around, bearing the same meaning. Therefore, I am highly suspicious of your explanations of its origin.

quote:Originally posted by koko:They never gave armenians a right to citizenship and their own country, like for example as in Israel(im not saying the israelis are right in occuipiing Palestine)! Well...im tired. I will continue the discussion later. This is what I was referring to when saying that the opinion is based on misinformation. All my grandparents, my parents, my aunts, uncles, thousands of neighbors, etc, where born Diaspora Armenians, but they where citizens of Soviet Armenia ( in fact there was no such concept - there was only a concept of Citizens of USSR residing in Armenia).

quote:Originally posted by THOTH:MJ/Alpha - ... Thoth, I didn't want to reply to you yesterday while you where enjoying the '96 Bordeaux. It would have been such an unholy thing... However, on a more serious note, your posting above is a description of why it is better to deepen the division between Armenia and Diaspora and opt for disunity.

“Former Sovjet Armenia they didint let diasporan armenians to be apart of the country by not letting them get citizenship.” And “They were saying that armenians outside armenians are not "real" native armenians as them.”

quote:Originally posted by koko:The discussion looks very messy to mee...partly my fault lol. Sorries OK. I guess it means it is also partly my fault. Sorries , too.

quote:Originally posted by koko:Well, i kind of missunderstood what u had written. U have another comment from me Now...dont u understand me now either?... The one about who is "real" Armenian? If yes, I understand it perfectly, however I totally disagree with that insinuation, since I think it is based on misconceptions or misinformation. But if you meant the one about your cousins, I have no comment about them.