MJ

I must be blessed to get yet another person to check my spelling in this forum. KOA, I don't think you are stupid. Perhaps quite the opposite might be true. The problem is that you have no clue what you are talking about. Maybe you would be well served not to jump into arguments on topics which you have never studied and, for starters, you could go an open a couple of relevant books (not from the Glendale Community College, though) and read them. Maybe then you may come up with some relevant theories based on facts. In such case, you would only be greeted.

This thread resembles a pileup of falsifications. Maybe it is symbolic for the title of the thread...

Perhaps in different cultures there are different standards associated with raising children. After all, giving birth is not a hard endeavor, raising them is the one – that is if this responsibility is recognized.

If there where no other examples, the last post might've successfuly been used as case studies for falsifications of history. Given that there are enough such examples, though, it mey be let go...

Armat, In essence, I agree with both of your posts. It really didn’t matter nor the action subject to discussion was something to be proud of – especially make songs about. My comments on who had done it were only of a technical character. Currently, I cannot afford to go into this issue any further. Maybe at some other time we can revisit it.

I know what you are saying, Arpa. But Babgen Suni was Hnachakian - as much as variety of sources (perhaps copying the same inaccurate source) claim that he wa was Dashnaktsakan.

Still doesn't do good, Nvard...

It's ok, MosJan. Give him a chance to grow up a little bit. While there are few factual errors in his last post (especially when it pertains to Andranik), and there is a hint on some mysterious forces (and I know who he means and unfortunately that is the absurd part of his material), in the large picture of things his last post is accurate.

Dear Robin, I don't have any sources handy, currently. I have studied these issues some 15 years ago while residing in Yerevan. I would ask you to just trust me on this. It is beyond any question that the action at the Bank Ottoman was organized by Hnchakian Party members, in particular, if my memory does not betray me, by Babgen Suni who was an active member of the Hnchakian Party). There is enough information about it in Armenian literature. You may justly question my comment and ask why cannot I give you one piece of reference if I claim there is ample evidence about the action being committed by the Hnchakians. While I recognize the legitimacy of such potential questioning, I would attribute my inability only to the fact of not having access to the libraries that I have once had - years ago I have donated several hundred books to the libraries of UCLA and University of Michigan. Besides, I could use the resources of the State and University libraries in Yerevan. Now, here in NY, my access to such sources is limited. However, I am sure that with a little research you can find original sources. As far as the relationship between the parties is concerned, it has always been bad - one of competition. Not much has changed since. The only news is that all the parties have ceased to exist (excluding ARF on the territory of the Republic of Armenia - event that would not last long.) The primary reason is that they have not been able to reinvent themselves in the contemporary world and have become merely social organizations of granting each other some ridiculous social status to brag about around their coffee tables while having whisky and cigar. In general, until 1905, ARF has been a relatively healthy force pursuing the goal of liberation of Armenia. However, it has not had a sufficient weight. The dominant party has been the Hnchakian Party, which has operated in a revolutionary mode. By 1905, ARF has abandoned, in essence, the agenda of liberation of Armenia and has betrayed the ideals of its founders, becoming a revolutionary force. On such capacity, it has captured the Hnchakian Party’s clout, which has entered the mode of decay lasting to our days. This is a brief response to your inquiry. Sorry that I could not be more detailed at this time and did not provide references.

Dashanks have had nothing to do with the action at the Bank of Ottoman (though they have tried to claim credit for it.) This action was committed by the Hnchaks. Furthermore, in the period 1886-1905, most of the actions have been committed by the Hnchaks. The emergence of Dashanks as an organized structure and prominent factor is attributable to the post-1905 era.

Undoubtedly, the acceptance of Turkey into EU is in the best interests of the Republic of Armenia.

siraaj, I would like to great your to-the-point comments and hope that you may be the one to introduce some relevant academic perspective into this issue.

The Armenian Legion has nothing to do with Turkey during the WWII. It has pursued the goal of liberation of Armenia from USSR not Turkey. Furthermore, while those in the highest command of the Legion have not been war prisoners, the Legion has primarily consisted from the war prisoners. Garegin Nzhdeh has started this initiative having the liberation of the Armenian prisoners of the concentration camps as one of his primary motivations. In fact, there have been almost no Armenian prisoners in concentration camps because of this. In 1944 Nzhdeh has been captured by the Soviet counter-intelligence officers and transferred to the prison of the city Vladimir (Russia) from Bulgaria. Later, per his request, he has been transferred to the prison of KGB in Yerevan as a result of his interest to mobilize Armenians for the participation in a potential war against Turkey on the side of USSR (this proposal has formally come from Nzhdeh.). This initiative has started sometime around 1946 based on the initial desire of USSR to invade Turkey. USSR leadership has for a while shown interest and engaged with Nzhdeh. However, when the plans of invading Turkey were neutralized by Churchill, the negotiations between Nzhdeh and USSR were stopped. As a result, Nzhdeh requested that he be transferred back to the prison in Vladimir, which was done. He died in Vladimir. If the ratio of Armenians who have fought against USSR and against Nazis has indeed been 10/1, that is only reflective of the numbers of the Armenian prisoners in concentration camps.

Nvard, Was the guy's name Arsen, Karen or Armen (they are brothers.)

An email I received from a colleague today: ... Since I already invested 2 silent hours listening to our round-and-round discussion Friday, let me invest 5 more minutes to write something here you may not have heard already: In the 1950s most US Jews were not very sympathetic to Israel, so US Jewish behavioral scientists did a series of mostly unpublished surveys to profile "patterns of identification among American Jews"--religion / nationality/ culture/ statehood...? I reviewed these simple yet powerful studies, and saw how they were used to track and even shape Jews' and Gentiles' views on the value of Israel. Soon after Armenian statehood in 1991, I suggested and then was invited to meet with a wealthy US Armenian leader, and spent 3 hours discussing the modest cost in money and time of doing these same surveys among US Armenians. ...No follow-up, nor even a thank-you letter. Of course, as you realize, US Armenians have uneven knowledge and opinions on Armenia which beg to be studied statistically, but if any of the well-endowed Hye groups has done this the past 12 years, I know nothing of it. Of course this is the next sound step for those who want to generate US support for a democratic Armenia, but a step that may never be taken.

Is that something from the series called "Grandma Stories and Armchair Uncle wisdom?"

Sure... Given that that's when Armenia was destroyed.

But why do you expect that they are different from other neo-Nazzis. What good do you expect from Amrenian neo-nazzis if I may ask?

TK, Per my observations, adults also discuss all types of strange and irrelevant things –sometime purely out of academic interests (which would be the best scenario), some times out of the lack of anything better to do, and other times due to their non-belonging and due to their not finding of a place in life. And I have met and known well some Armenian neo-nazis. May I ask why do you want to meet them? Edit: clean up done/ Sasun

Assuming that this thread is not driven merely by academic interests may I ask what the relevance of the original question is? What if Armenians have no distinct origin and are migrants to the region and what if Armenians are the genuine natives of the land for 50000 years or more, starting from the local Neanderthals? Edit: clean up done/ Sasun

Sorry, meant to say "paghaqshakan."

Arpa, Is that something "paghakshkakn" in your lexicon?

Why do I heave a sneaking suspicion that when explaining the nature of the “esh” Axel’s father is addressing his son?

I meant to say 40 and under.

I don’t think Armenian are fixated on the Jews as you keep repeating ... Armenians are very much fixated on the Jews. That fixation has a very simple and quintessential characterization - jealousy. Everything Armenians do is to repeat or mimic the Jews. Jews have a Genocide memorial, Armenians do it too, Jews present themselves as an exclusive category of victimized people – Armenians do it too. I can continue this list on and on. I can also guarantee you that if Jews had not been compensated for their Genocide; Armenians would have not pursued it either, for example.